Interested in getting a JD/MBA (at a top school) for a number of reasons - I'm curious about admission to the JD program. My work experience when I apply will be purely IB (ie no law work experience) - do I need law work experience (clerkships etc) in order to be admitted to law school, or would a strong overall application (LSAT, letters of recommendation etc) and clear, valid intentions for wanting to pursue a JD as well as an MBA be enough to make me a competitive applicant to law school?
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Clear intentions are important. I am not a JD/MBA, but my friends who are did not have significant (or any) legal experience going in. Most top law school applicants are coming straight from undergrad. I don't think that expectation is different for dual degree candidates.
Probably 75%+ students in law school come straight out of undergrad with literally no work experience so your application will be fine without having a law background, no worries. It's worth really considering why you want the dual degree though. It's 2 extra years, costs a lot more, and doesn't really open any new doors that you can't open through one of the programs individually. Not trying to dissuade your from going but the US (not sure where you're from or where you want to work) has a huge glut of lawyers, many of whom can't get jobs.
@brj and @mba2014 This is really a common misconception. The top law schools average 1-2 years work experience while the lower tiered schools are mostly less than one.
I haven't looked at the stats but anecdotally most people that I know at a top 14 or who graduated out of one of those programs just went straight from undergrad. If the tide is changing so that more people are getting at least some work experience before I think that's a huge plus. In all fairness I didn't go to law school so again, my persoective is just from the people I know
Probs 30% of kids at the top schools are straight-through. People with experience have easier times getting jobs. Law firms look at straight throughs as a box of chocolate. There is no professional experience on their resume to benchmark and you have to rationalize giving them 160k
Law school admissions, similar to med school, is based on two overriding criteria: GPA and test scores (LSAT, MCAT). Check out http://lawschoolnumbers.com/, an interesting site that has users self-report those two criteria and their admissions status. It is unlike business school admissions which uses a more holistic approach as it values essays, recommendations, and especially work experience.
As for the uses and benefits of the dual MBA/JD degree has been dissed in depth on WSO. Many people recommend against it as there are few positions that both are required, and the extra financial and opportunity costs are rarely worth it. As @brj said, clear intentions are extra important with this dual degree. I’d suggest look at those positions you’d like to do post b/law school, and check out the bios of who holds them.
Yep in the process of doing that @blueapple, and many of the people in positions I want have a JD/MBA. I have my reasons for wanting to do one, including just being interested in the material (which, admittedly, may not warrant getting the degree). I am interested in restructuring banking and distressed investing, so I think a JD will be helpful in some ways - but as I said, I have a range of reasons for wanting to get one, and have read the arguments for and against it on WSO and have spoken to people in the industry etc to hear their opinions.
@mba2014: I'm from Australia but intend to study in the US and possibly eventually work there. I don't actually intend to practice law, but as I mentioned I have reasons for wanting to get the JD (eg if I want to do distressed investing in the US, it may make me more credible coming from overseas and the law knowledge will certainly be helpful).
Given that I don't want to practice law, and am aware of the costs and benefits of spending 4 years getting the two degrees, I have been quite seriously considering Columbia's and UPenn's 3 year JD/MBA programs - can anyone speak to the recognition/benefit of these? Would I be shortchanging myself by doing a 3 year program vs. a 4 year, or would the end result be largely the same/similar given my intention to work in finance? Leaning heavily towards Columbia's program because it leaves both summers free for internships, whereas Penn's only leaves one summer free.
If you have other strong reasons, then that sounds fine and everyone should follow what they believe is best for them personally. But the value of a law degree for distressed debt? The people from DD that I spoke with said it's of marginal value at best.
A 3Y program definitely offers a benefit in terms of cost savings and having lots of program-specific support. The trade-off is that you'll be in lockstep with your JD/MBA class, without being immersed in either school. In a 4Y program, you typically spend the 1st two years in law school as a fully engaged member of the 1L/2L community, including a legal internship. Then you switch to basically having a complete MBA 1Y experience (orientation, cohorts, networking, clubs, recruiting). It's only in your 4th and final year where you're balancing classes from both to complete your degrees. During 3L or MBA 2Y, many students take electives in the opposite school anyways, so it doesn't seem that strange. You don't get to graduate with "your" law class though.
For 3Y programs, Penn and Columbia are awesome. Although Wharton is ranked higher than CBS, I feel like Columbia's law school ranking gives it a slightly more potent combo (although not necessarily so for finance). Harvard, Stanford, Chicago/Booth, and NYU/Stern are also top 10 (7 depending on year) in both USNWR rankings.
+1 to the degree being of marginal to no value for distressed debt funds.
I know a 43-year-old Harvard MBA/JD recipient. I believe he obtained his degrees at 33. He's a director at large real estate company (consulting, capital raising, construction, etc.). He makes about $250,000/year. I'm not sure to what end he used those degrees but today he's doing quite well.
It sounds like you've got a game plan, but I'd really, REALLY consider if it's something you need.
Given his credentials I wouldn't say he's doing "quite well," especially if he's 10 years out of school...
Unless you own your own company or produce your company revenue (i.e. a law or accounting partner or a salesman) or are an appointed CEO/company president, earning a $250,000/year salary is kind of reaching the upper echelon of what you can be paid in salary for 40-50 hour work weeks. For non-revenue producers, there is generally going to be an upper limit for salary potential.
As a JD I can tell you that for the most part schools will only care about your GPA and LSAT score. Part of the reason they don't care about you employment history is that law firms don't care about a law students pre-law school work experience. They really just care about what law school you went to and your class ranking.
@"mba2014". It looks like @"yeahright" is right. I did a bit of research on Harvard, Yale, and Columbia's wesbites. for their recent classes, over 75% have 1 year or more of experience and over 50% have 2+. Who knew?
We stand corrected then. Thanks @yeahright for clarifying. Personally I think it's great that people are getting some experience (whatever it maybe be) before they go to law school. It'll definitely help them be more rounded and make the law school experience better overall.
Law school is a scam. If you are doing a JD/MBA to go into big law its more or less a waste as allyou need is a JD. Big Law is also a joke because the 20th ranked firm will pay a kid straight through from undergrad the exact same (including bonus) as a 30 year old with experience going to Skadden or K&E. Jd =/= MBA. While it is shifting most people go in with NO experience. Also, the JD alone is worthless. Its a check the box to take the bar to go to a firm where you will learn skills that are relevant.
Its going to be money sink if you are already in IB unless you cant get the associate direct promote. $150,000 of school for 3 years. You will go into big law making less all-in than you would as a 1st year associate all-in. My gf is at an Ivy law school and is in big law if you are wondering my source. I also know a couple kids that are penn jd/mbas.
That said I would do a JD/MBA if and only if... I have pre jd/mba PE experience and I am going to chicago, columbia, or penn. Heavy HEAVY preference for penn. Followed by columbia. I want to do distressed stuff so there is more of a gray line between finance and law. Which is why a lot of RX shops have former lawyers.
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