I'm pretty new to the forum and have been using it as a very useful informational supplement to my post-USMC career. I have been Pm'ed by several guys about flying/military in the short time I've been on the forum. I was also surprised to see how many of the young guys/girls were considering the military as a path to a top MBA or how many would do a stint in the military if they could do it again.
My story is that I am a relatively low GPA (3.2) from a top 20 state school (business major concentration in finance, history minor). I did a summer audit internship after my junior year and was bored out of my mind. I got a little scared at the prospects of waking up as a bored regretful 45 year old accountant so I secured a flight contract in the Marine Corps.
After OCS I went to TBS and then infantry officer training. I then went to flight school in Pensacola, selected EA6B Prowlers, trained in Whidbey Island Washington, and was stationed at Cherry Point, NC. I've done deployments to Afghanistan, Qatar, Korea, and Japan. I've also flown pretty much everywhere in the U.S., worked with lots of allied nation air forces as well as pretty much every tactical aircraft in the U.S. inventory. I also briefly worked as an officer recruiter so I have a pretty decent perspective on guys trying to get selected to an officer program. I've had collateral jobs as a logistics officer and operations officer. In total I spent 9 years and 2 months in the Marine Corps.
I used those experiences to overcome a very average GMAT and a weak effort in undergrad. I'm starting at a target school this fall for my MBA 95% paid for by GI Bill/Yellow Ribbon plus a monthly housing stipend. While my future career path is far from decided, I do have a solid perspective on a path to an MBA that a lot of the 19-25 year old demographic have considered. So, with all of that said, ask me anything.
[*Update*] I have now finished school and I work in Asset Management.
That's a very interesting backstory, thanks for sharing. As a current Army officer, let me say I think it's pretty sick that you went through infantry training before flight school.
I am applying to MBA programs this fall, so I'm most interested in that part of your story. Mind sharing what that average GMAT was, and your post-MBA goal that you stated in your applications?
IOC is hands down the best school in the Marine Corps. I was offered the opportunity to attend at the end of TBS. I initially did not want to do it, but several of my friends challenged my manhood and shamed me into going. I am extremely thankful for their urging, because it was a great experience.
I was a 670 GMAT, but I also know of veterans with lower GMAT's still get into target schools. My experience is that schools are more flexible with test scores for veterans. There needs to be other aspects of your application to offset a lower score, but for vets I know it can be done. (Think undergrad major, additional math courses after college, technical job in the military, or even letters of recommendation directly speaking to your high level of intelligence).
To be clear, it is no secret that your application post-MBA goal does not actually have to be what you do post MBA. However, you need to fully commit to that goal prior to your interview and have a knowledge level of that goal comparable to someone who does actually plan to do that post-MBA. This is so that you don't sound ridiculous during your interview and it also allows you to address why you specifically need an MBA from this school for your short and long term career goals. My goal was entrepreneurship, to work in operations at an aerospace startup, grow that business, and then use that experience to move into COO type positions of larger and larger companies. Things have changed since making that goal and now it does not seem as valid of a goal as it did a year ago. For this reason I am looking at other careers post-MBA.
In your case, I can't stress enough the importance of reaching out to the veterans clubs of the schools you are applying to. Most of those clubs have the stated goal of assisting veterans trying to get into their school. I would recommend working with a student vet, most likely from your same MOS/unit/service/undergrad at your target school to proofread your essays, conduct mock admissions interviews, help with your resume, and give you an insiders view of the culture of the school. Also, try to attend some veterans weekends. I had an extremely positive experience at my school's vets weekend.
This country is really awesome in that every day people have such a positive opinion of the military. Unfortunately it also sets unrealistic expectations about how good are military actually is and I think it is good to be honest with yourself and others about what it is actually like. Like you said there are tons of positives. One I forgot to mention is pay. A 10 year captain aviator will make the equivalent of about $115,000 civilian dollars. Now, I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just listing negatives.
-Family: the military is not designed for families no matter how much they try to change that image. I wish they would be honest and say that the military is bad for families (not that you care about family as a 22 year old, I didn't). Even when you are home, you are not home. You are at exercises all over the country or flying cross countries on the weekend To terrible places such as Key West, Pensacola, San Diego, Las Vegas, etc. When I came back from my second deployment my 2 year old daughter didn’t know me and was scared of me which sucked.
-Government bureaucracy: the workings of the federal government are so ineffective that it is hard to put into words without anger.
-Waste: War is waste, peace time military is still almost as wasteful. I can tell you tons of stories of millions of dollars of waste.
-The promotion system is terrible: It is a zero sum game, up or out promotion system. Your promotions up to major are pretty much guaranteed based on time in service which is a real downer if you actually work hard. You will promote just as fast as your dirt bag buddy. In the higher ranks, for you to promote your buddy must fail. There are a limited number of slots and if you don’t promote to one of those then you are forced out.
-Leadership: There are some really bad leaders in the Marine Corps. There are some awesome ones too, but it seems to me personally that a lot of the best ones get out well prior to senior leadership because they are able to be successful on the outside.
-I fundamentally did not believe in the mission of my aircraft. I think we overstated our effectiveness and risks of not having us because it was good for our careers and community. I like the term self-licking ice cream cone.
-I don’t always think that what we do actually protects our country from anything. That’s a hard one to come to terms with but I think veterans from Vietnam through Afghanistan have had to wrestle with that nagging doubt in the back of their minds as they saw Iraq being overrun by ISIS, heard the full story about Iraq WMD, or see that we’re still in Afghanistan 4 years after OBL was killed…(In Pakistan)
-The Marine Corps specifically has some of the most inane archaic regulations in existence mostly related to stupid stuff like uniforms and personal appearance. The worst part is that everyone regardless of rank is empowered to call each other out for these minor rule infractions. The result is an elementary school type setting where everyone is pointing their fingers at other people saying “you’re breaking a rule” (in your best 6 year old voice). This breeds a culture of sociopathy where people actually believe they are better than someone else because they have a fresher haircut or because the other guy is wearing “inappropriate civilian attire.”
-You get treated like 13 year old trouble maker and you are sometimes forced to treat your Marines like 13 year olds when you are in a position of leadership. Whether it be “safety briefs” prior to the weekend telling your Marines not to get DUI’s, annual training telling you not to sexually assault/human traffic other people, or kill yourself. It is maddening to see how these training requirements are actually put into place. One day on CNN a congressman is passing a bill claiming to prevent vet suicide, the next day you are taking a computer class that is a result of this bill, telling you not to kill yourself.
-The environment is becoming very political and a zero defect / checklist mentality pervades all services. Everyone has checklists because leadership doesn’t trust their people to exercise good judgement in the completion of their duties.
-In lots of cases a military career negatively effects your civilian career prospects when you get out. You miss out on those 3 year post undergrad jobs that give you the experience and open up a good spot to land post MBA.
For regrets: The best deal in aviation going is the Army warrant officer program. I wish I could have been a pilot. I think for aviation, the Air Force or Navy is better for quality of life, equipment, promotion, locations (debatable for the Air Force). I wish I could have gotten out after 4 years as opposed to 9 so that I would go to b-school as a 26 year old instead of a 31 year old. Of course I wouldn't have flown.
I’m not trying to come across as negative, because I can definitely list more positives than negatives. I’m just answering your question honestly.
From a fellow IOC grad, Semper Fi. Flight school to boot, thats a double panty dropper.
Your negatives are right on the money. Love the Marines, the Corps not so much.
Leadership is the quality that folks generally expect above all others when they hire vets or admit them to a school. Officers get more of the text book business leadership training. Enlisted still get tons of leadership experience if they pursue it.
Personally, I grew a ton from a self serving college punk to someone who was confident in leading others and had a leadership "personality" that I felt was effective and inspiring based on what I witnessed first hand in my good and bad leaders. The style of leadership I developed was one where I genuinely cared about those I led. I tried to distinguish between the stuff that mattered and the stuff that didn't matter so that I could focus my folks on the important things and overlook extraneous things. I took pride in biting my tongue to overlook small errors by my folks that would not in any way harm the effectiveness of our task. I was always open to anyone that needed to chat although I expected them to use the chain of command for most things. I did my best to officially recognize people for their hard work through the awards system or public praise. I tried to never take credit for anything but always recognize my people in front of my bosses. I always tried to push responsibility down to the lowest level so that all I had to do was supervise, if this was possible. I liked to take the advice of the technical experts that knew more than me. Sometimes the strategy worked. I liked to foster an environment of collaboration where new ideas and new people were both eagerly welcomed. I recognized that I was a poor disciplinarian. I gave folks a lot of freedom, and a few bad apples tried to take advantage of me being a nice guy. I would have to punish them severely. If I would have been more on top of them they wouldn't have gotten themselves into so much trouble, however I thought it was a great way to identify those that had legitimate character flaws while not alienating the other 90% of folks that were great people. If at all possible, I would always give my folks a chance to leave work before me and I would not assign anyone a task that I wasn't also willing to do myself. I also believe strongly in the leadership traits that the Marine Corps teaches, the pneumonic JJDIDTIEBUCKLE. Judgement, justice, dependability, integrity, decisiveness, tact, initiative, enthusiasm, bearing, unselfishness, courage, knowledge, loyalty, and endurance.
As for social skills, you learn to relate to all types of people. In my job I had to give briefs to large groups all the time. The "ready room" was a tight knit group of type A personalities. I was always well liked, so I think my social skills were solid. If you are socially awkward you will get destroyed, but everyone will still love you because of your weird ways. You may earn an absolutely awful callsign though. If you are socially awkward in a leadership position, in general you will not be a good leader and your people will not follow you.
For leadership, the Marines take pride in teaching leadership to its officers from the start. At OCS you will do the traditional leadership type training of being in charge of groups of other candidates trying to focus your team on completing a particular mission or solving a problem. The type of training that was very popular among corporations, 5 or 10 years ago. You are placed in positions of leadership where you are in charge of the well being of your peers in both an administrative and tactical environment and you are continuously evaluated on this. In general I think the training is pretty effective, but I don't think leadership can be wholly learned. In lots of cases you either have it or you don't. I actually had someone in my OCS class go so that he would have the leadership training on his resume for when he applied to law school. He did not accept a commission and did eventually get into Harvard Law. He was an alright guy, but that was a dbag strategy.
After training, the leadership opportunities are phenomenal and it is sink or swim. You get placed in charge of large groups of diverse people, most of whom have much more experience than you do. Aviators typically do not have quite the leadership experience as ground guys, but they still have much more than their civilian counterparts. An example of the leadership responsibility and diversity of assignments was my last job. I had 7 direct report Marines, 4 direct report civilians, and approximately 15 civilian contractors that I was responsible for. The average experience of my Marines was 8 years, and the average age of my civilians was 45. Additionally, in aviation, after gaining experience you will be given tactical leadership slowly advancing your way into instructor positions teaching or leading junior aircrew as well as leadership positions over large air packages.
The infantry (or ground side) leadership opportunities are much more straight forward. For the first 2 years as a 2ndlieutenant you are in charge of a platoon of 40 Marines aged 18-40. For years 2-4 as a 1st lieutenant you most likely will become an executive officer where you are #2 in command over a company of 200 Marines. From years 4-10 as a captain, you will be a company commander which means you will be responsible for about 200 Marines. In the higher ranks you can just get more responsibility as the units grow larger to battalions, regiments, or divisions.
I am far from well informed on the F35 thing and I only have strong opinions on the F35 within Marine aviation. I think we had too many "fighter" guys in leadership positions promoting their next sexy ride. I think if you look at the history of Marine aviation it is filled with cheap, rugged aircraft that excelled at close air support and troop transport. I think the Air Force and Navy have the deep strike mission covered and with the Marine's perennially cheap budget they would have been much better served by focusing on cheap reliable close air support options such as the AT-6 Wolverine. I think you could buy something like 10 AT-6 Wolverines for the price of 1 F35. Probably not the argument most make when talking about the F35, but that's the problem I see. So as far as fighter guys in leadership, who wants to be known as the Hornet general that decided to end fighters in the Marine Corps in favor of the un-sexy Wolverine?
Maybe a little, but I think mainly it was the capabilities of modern surface to air missile systems that made airborne escort EW obsolete. I also think that self contained jamming pods that you can mount on aircraft and pre-program can essentially do the job as good or better than a traditional airborne EW platform with 4 souls on board. I do think that there will always be an EW mission for communications jamming as well as aircraft with on-board interpreters conducting surveillance. Also, if you look at the history of airborne EW, it has been a tit-for-tat technology war ever since we dropped chaff in WW2. Develop countermeasure, enemy response, obsolescence of old countermeasure, update, develop....The cycle goes on forever. What you see now is just a continuation of that cycle.
Traditionally the Navy/Marine EW assets were built to attack an integrated air defense system. I'm not sure how effective we would have been because while I was in our mission set was dominated by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. As you can imagine, there aren't a lot of enemy radars and surface to air missile systems to jam in countries that are our allies. Therefore, we are left with missions designed to degrade an enemy's ability to communicate. The Navy/Marine EW assets were poorly suited for this mission, but if you have all of this expensive hardware then you have to use it. I always thought we could have been a lot more effective with a cheap King Air with some jammers, an on-board interpreter and 8 hours of on-station time (compared with 1 hour on-station in the Prowler).
The Wild Weasel is a really cool mission theoretically, but they haven't really had a role to play in quite some time. They train to be SAM killers. I always felt they were limited by the fact that their main weapon, the AGM-88 HARM is expensive and leaves a lot to be desired in terms of effectiveness. However, they could have improved the HARM in the few years since I last flew since I don't really stay up to date on weapons tech. But once again, there weren't a lot of missions for SAM killers in the countries where all of our recent wars have been. I trained with a reservist Wild Weasel squadron and thought all of their air crew were really cool guys for what its worth.
Sure. The number one thing I got out of my time in the Marine Corps to take forward with me in life is perspective. I joined the Marine Corps in the pursuit of an exciting job, because I drew my identity from my work and the ability to do something exciting, difficult and well respected by society. I learned over time that in the end, the Marine Corps was just a job. I got tired of the missions, hubris, inertia, bureaucracy, etc. Your job (even in the Marine Corps) shouldn't define you and you don't want to be the type of person that is defined by the fact that you are a Marine, Soldier, pilot, investment banker, consultant, etc. (I'm sure we can all envision our one angry veteran friend that got out 4 years, never moved on, and spends his days pounding away pro-military anti-government comments from his keyboard on Facebook). No matter how sexy your job is, there will always be someone bigger and badder than you . Whatever you do, have some perspective, find as much joy as you can in something that is still called work, but understand that your worth isn't based on that work, and work towards something important outside of work. Right now for me that is my family, church, minor hobbies with my limited free time and finding joy in the fact that I can help end investors have better outcomes with their hard earned cash through my role at an asset manager.
If that answer just isn't enough for you then you might want to figure out how to pursue this desire you have in a way that doesn't throw away everything you have worked towards in finance. You actually CAN take the time away from your current employer. Your employer has to keep your job available for you if you are a mobilized reservist. Its the law. Of course it will be inconvenient to be away from work for a few months, but if they can't get by without you for two or three months, then you are really important and they should probably be paying you more.
But seriously, think about the Army reserves, National Guard, or enlisted Marine reserves. I would think all of these would have shorter training requirements than Marine officer. I think something like that may be enough to scratch your itch. In the end, I made the decision to join, because I was scared of the thought of having to regret not joining for the rest of my life. And in the end I learned that flying in the Marine Corps was just a job.
What's up dude? I did a webinar on transitioning out through an MBA. You can look for it on here or PM me your email and I can send you the notes. It was a fair amount of stuff.
I think one of the biggest tips for getting out is networking. I would start trying to build out your network now. As I look back, using my military network was probably the single most powerful thing that I had in my favor. Systematically identify a bunch of companies and careers you may be interested in. Use LinkedIn to find prior military at those companies. Send them a message or email saying that you are transitioning out and you are trying to learn more about the different careers/companies/etc. out there post-MBA. Use this to build your network and identify what jobs you are going to want to recruit for once you start your MBA. You will have a head start on recruiting once school starts. Looking back, this process was ridiculously effective. I would estimate for every 10 messages I sent out, I got 7 to 8 responses back. I would estimate that I did 50 informational interviews in the 9 months prior to starting school. The military network is strong.
Something else that is an awesome opportunity is American Corporate Partnership. I Highly recommend applying and getting a mentor at a target company/city/industry. It's just a fantastic program for us.
http://www.acp-usa.org/
I didn't do an internship prior to starting. It just depends on what career path you are looking at. I know IB does a good job of getting military guys into pre-MBA internships, but I wasn't sure what career path I wanted to take at the time. There really aren't a lot of pre-MBA internship opportunities outside of IB.
I didn't do the reserves. I got all the way out. I felt I might be a little more motivated to work if I didn't have that safety net to fall back on. That may be bad advice especially if you would still like to fly or have the Marine Corps in your life. In the end I just didn't want to give up 25% of my weekends or get distracted by a secondary job. I viewed my post-MBA civilian career as my main effort if you want to use Marine Corps jargon.
One other thing to note is that if you are an OEF or OIF veteran then you get 5 years of FREE VA healthcare after you get out. If health care is why you are doing reserves, then just use the VA. In fact, I had such a positive experience with the VA healthcare system that I am now using them as my PCM and my company's health insurance reimburses the VA. The student plan through the school cost $2500/year which I didn't have to pay because of the VA. If you have a family let me know and there are some things you can do there too in order to save a lot of money.
You will have to graduate from a 4 year school to be an officer. Most services offer the opportunity to go to training the summer after your junior year. After you finish your training and go back to school and finish your senior year you graduate and become a second lieutenant/ensign. In the Marines this is called the PLC program. I would recommend you talk to the officer recruiters from each service to get a good feel for what is out there.
As for setting you up for grad school, I think that the military absolutely does that. First you get a lot of money from the post-911 GI Bill. But the real beauty is that a lot of great schools specifically target military folks through diversity programs. Whether that means a quote or just an emphasis, I'm not sure. But I think it will help you get into a great school. You will also have a bunch of cool stories and a strong network that will serve you well for the rest of your life.
It is a cool unique life experience that ultimately becomes a job like anything else in the end. I started out training by flying in a small civilian plane called a Cessna 172 in northern Virginia for a few months. I then went to Pensacola Florida where you go to a 10 week ground school and learn in the classroom about weather, flight regulations, navigation, how airplanes fly, how the mechanical systems, and engines work. You also learn survival skills like long distance swimming, how to escape a submerged aircraft and how to find food in the wild. You start on small military training aircraft that would be the equivalent of a Mazda Miata and you learn emergency procedures, basic flight controls, aerobatics and navigation. You keep moving up to bigger, faster, and more complex aircraft doing more complex and difficult missions until you get your "wings" and are now able to fly a real tactical military jet not just trainers. Training is a very difficult and stressful process where I would estimate that 40% of prospective aviators fail out and have to do a different job in the military. Sometimes the instructors are really cool and they flying is a real adventure, however more often you are just really stressed out and fearful of failing your flight which makes the flying not as fun.
I then went on to learn how to fly my big gray military jet in Whidbey Island Washington, near Seattle. That was probably the coolest experience because you are learning to fly these loud fast tactical jets through the mountains of the Pacific Northwest. The flying is fairly low pressure so it is pretty awesome to fly down these deep valleys and past massive snow capped peaks. You also learn the basics of planning a real mission and how to use the aircraft's electronic jamming system which was its main weapon. You also do things like flying at night, going on cross countries to air bases all over the US, flying with night vision goggles, low level flying, flying in a formation with multiple other aircraft at the same time, and taking off/landing on aircraft carriers. All along the way there are check rides that you have to pass which are extremely stressful because if you fail enough you will wash out and have change careers. Once you finish this portion you go to your active "fleet" squadron which is your first warfighting non-training squadron. The whole training process from signing the contract at the recruiters office to making it to a fleet squadron takes almost 4 years.
Once you check into a fleet squadron you are given a collateral duty or non-flying job. You split your time between flying and this collateral duty. As a junior aircrew you are matched up with more senior aircrew so the flying is generally very stressful because you are constantly being evaluated and constantly trying to prove yourself. You get into work at 6:00 so you can study any of the 4 or more 900+ page manuals to learn about your aircraft, tactics, weapons systems, or enemy tactics and weapons systems. There is a training syllabus that you start on with lots of different flights where you are working towards qualifications that serve to show that you are able to perform the tactical missions of your squadron. You hope to acquire these qualifications so that you will have the chance to have a long flying career. You are always trying to complete your ground job, prepare for deployments/cross country trips/long term training missions/training cycles etc. The hours are long, the flying is not fun and its a stressful period of your career. A typical non-flying day consists of you mission planning from 7AM to 7PM with your aircrew for your evaluated flight the next day. You then go home and rehearse your "brief" or presentation for a few hours. The next day for an 8AM take-off you get in at 3 or 4AM to prepare your mission board/products/presentation. Your brief would start at 5 or 6 AM and could go for up to 2 hours. The whole time you are presenting the mission you are about to fly while answering evaluation questions by the other aircrew and instructors in your flight. If you make it through the brief, you then go get dressed in all of your flight gear at 7AM and walk to your aircraft at 7:30. You take off at 8. In my case the missions would be 2 hours over the Atlantic Ocean of the flat lands of eastern North Carolina. The flight is stressful because every move you make is being evaluated. After landing at 10, you get undressed and then go through a 2 hour debrief where every mistake you made is brought up by your self evaluation and then by the instructor(s) on the flight. You then grab lunch at 1230 and work on your ground job until 6 or 7 that night. I probably did this same routine 30 or 40 times over a 2 year period before I received my "qualifications". After that you shift to more of an instructor role where you are teaching and making a lot of the decisions about how the junior aircrew will train. Unfortunately you only have about 1 year in this instructor role until your 3 year flight tour is up and you move on to another job somewhere else in the Marine Corps (either flying or non-flying).
Looking back, the coolest most fulfilling flying was in a training environment because the days were short, the locations were good, and the thrill of flying was still new and very cool. By the end though, everything becomes muscle memory and flying for me just became another job. I'm not sure if that answers your question.