Midlevel Burnout
Hey everyone - I know this site skews younger but I'm hoping there are some more experienced folks who would be willing to share their thoughts. I'm a first year VP (i.e. just promoted) at a solid firm. I do M&A in an industry group that's strong in its space. The team likes me and I have a lot of goodwill built up - I sort of just need to continue to punch the clock without losing my mind and I'll have a pretty clear path up the ladder (at least until I have to start generating revenue). Overall it's a good seat, and they pay me near the top of the street.
Nonetheless, it's difficult for me to put into words how much I hate it. I just could not care less about the work at this point and, as an A2A promote that's been doing this for over 5 years, I am tired to my core. I actually have managed to maintain a pretty decent life outside of work but I've developed very unhealthy habits to cope with the stress and have all the symptoms of a serious case of burnout. My attitude for a couple years has been that I'll just keep doing this until something blows up in my face because of laziness or I just crack and can't make myself do it anymore. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, but here I am.
Ultimately I'm just still here for the money. If I can pull it off, I think I have a few more years left in the suck and then will make a serious lifestyle change. But I don't know - things look a lot different at 30 than they did at 23. I can convince myself that it's not worth wasting another second of my life on this, and then I can convince myself the opposite.
I just would love to hear from other folks who have been through this, whether you stayed on board or left for something else. Did you leave? Regret it? Love it? Decided to stay and found a way to reset? Any and all thoughts welcome.
Do you have interests in entrepreneurship?
Money accumulated during your junior years in IB can be thrown away at an idea that you've always had. This likely also depends on if you've got family / kids. I'd say 30 is on the threshold of trying something and having it blow up in 3 years and not be too old.
^^ My background is in tech so my perspective may be skewed but if you have interest in VC down the line, a successful or even failed start-up is actually a huge draw for those in that industry.
If you have 0 interest in entrepreneurship, or VC and simply want to cut the hours down to ~40-50 a week in industry, you should look to exit ASAP after a convenient bonus.
Wow, sounds like you’re tortured, but a well-compensated victim.
When you do reach your limit, what do you foresee as your most likely exit ? I’m guessing you don’t want PE. At your level, is that even an option?
I have essentially the exact same profile as you OP (1st year VP, 30, and A2A) and arriving at a similar place. I think I enjoy the work itself a bit more than you do but given the compounding of the general grind of banking it's tough to always be motivated.
That said, when I think about alternatives I don't really know what they would be. I think I ACTUALLY work like 65 hours a week so going to corporate and going down to 50 hours and going from $600K to $250K(?) seems like a terrible trade off. The way I've rationalized it, is another 3-4 years at this pay rate will put me in a place where I could theoretically 'retire' and live nicely off even a modest return each year or more likely let it continue to grow and have a very comfortable retirement while adding to it more modestly with a job/venture that I prefer.
I think if I really found another opportunity that was too good to pass up I'm probably at a point from an experience and savings perspective that I could justify a move. Until that day I do my best to work with teams/projects I like and try to avoid the ones I don't to help worklife balance to the extent possible
When you say retire, does that mean moving from NYC / other high COL city and living relatively modestly or do you have enough to maintain a similar level of living?
Realistically my 'lifestyle' now as a VP looks pretty similar to what it did when I was a junior associate, so increase in pay has pretty much 100% just translated to more savings. That said, while NYC has been amazing for my 20's, the appeal probably isn't there for me long term. Long term I'd like to live in a house, have a car, have land, etc. and there are many places in the US where that would be possible.
To @Jamoldo aptly points out below, retirement is too strong a word. I'd definitely want to keep working, but would just do so knowing that any incremental savings is just gravy so I don't have to go after every last dollar of savings. At least recently I've taken the first step of coming up with a number that I'd like to reach to feel like I've done what I set out to accomplish. Perhaps the goal posts will keep moving, hard to say!
Thanks - exact same profile but we also apparently think about this the same way too. You basically articulated my thoughts. Don't really know what else I would do, so it's hard to justify the pay cut for something I'm not passionate about. So I'm left thinking a few more years at VP-level comp will put me at a place where I can downshift to something easy where the pay basically just covers living expenses and I can spend more time doing things I enjoy. Although probably doesn't work if kids end up becoming a factor. And as one of the other responses mentions, maybe that's what every MD has been telling themselves for 10 years and they never actually do it. I can certainly see how that would happen. But that's probably the plan - sometimes 3 more years sounds like a lifetime though
People who’ve been in IB for so long have simply lost all perspective. Think about what you just told this man… you just recommended he stays miserable for the the goal of “retiring early” (which is such an overly-optimistic naive goal in this forum) at the expense of his CURRENT happiness. If you’re 30 and haven’t realized the present is the ONLY thing that matters, then I feel sorry for you and hope you grow to see otherwise.
I’m older than all of you and haven’t made anywhere near the money you folks have (and that’s ok!).
But to think that you folks could work for a few more years and then can/will quit to theoretically retire is for most people, a pipe dream. Sure it’s possible in theory if you seriously budget, live in a low COL location, invest decently, get lucky with markets, and ignore the whole having a family and enjoying your money thing which very few people actually do.
I say this because I cannot count the number of people in my age group that said the same thing from ages 27-32 with similar profiles to you folks and then realized that they just couldn’t/wouldn’t do it.
Sure, some took much lower paying jobs, took time off, switched to easier roles in finance or started businesses/tried to. And all of that is awesome!
But no one retired...
Don't compare yourself to people on the internet -- there's always someone who has more than you! It gets depressing very quick.
But you are right - if you have the work ethic to grind 80-90 hrs a week for 5+ years, you aren't going to just shut down and retire tomorrow. Eventually it just comes down to priorities - do you live a lifestyle or have a drive to make as much $$ as possible? or are you ok to slow the pace a bit and get more control over your life? or C, continue to grind but grind on what you find to be the most interesting.
No right answer on that one.
I was in your shoes. Out of college, was really exciting to grind hard and do a lot of deals and that's kind of what kept me in it. But over time realized that the job wasn't for me in the long run -- tried to get out multiple times but for whatever reason, wasn't able to find the right fit, or convert interviews -- given my experience, was pretty decent at the job and the money was pretty good so I could stick to it.
That being said, given the huge grind + group / culture dynamics (massive inefficiencies), I REALLY began to despise the job / my group.
When you're 30 your perspective changes a bit -- either you can stick to it and keep clipping coupons OR you can get on the right long term path - different people choose differently, I chose the latter (or moreso I finally got out). I left massive $$ on the table and took a pretty massive paycut (think 40-50%) for a buyside role.
That being said, I'm much much happier now. Get to work on the parts of the job I find the most interesting (deals and no busy work), get to analyze companies, and from a lifestyle perspective, most my weekends are free. Most importantly, now I actually have some skin in the game so the job is a lot more interesting and it actually feels like your contributions are making a difference.
what type of buyside role? 50% paycut is pretty heavy if going from IB to PE no?
I don't think so. Setting aside some super high paying buy side shops, Im pretty sure sellside pays more in the junior to mid levels vs. buy side.
Edit: But to sidestep your question, I took a few years back.
I'm A2A and further down the line than you but have struggled with similar thoughts. I've basically decided to clip more coupons so I can fund my FIRE goals. I don't think I'd ever actually retire in my 30s but maybe I'll eventually switch to something I enjoy given the substantial nest egg I have due to banking.
The rat race in banking is real but it's really freaking hard to walk away from the money, especially when I'm young and single so the cash basically flows to the bottom line.
Part of my problem too is that I don't know exactly what I want to do but know I need to feel very strongly about it to forgo this compensation.
I think your last point hits the nail on the head for why I'm still doing this--Have no idea what I want to do, but know that I'll need to feel very strongly about it in order to forgo the compensation
Exact same profile as OP and this hits the nail on the head
the issue I’ve found is that the grind in banking and always being “on” really prevents you from figuring this out as your mind is always exhausted. The biggest moments of clarity I’ve ever had were times when I was between jobs and could be bored / let me mind wander.
I'll tell you from personal experience that it's even harder to walk away from the money when you have a wife, kid, and mortgage. I'm in the same emotional boat as you (and the rest of us it seems) are.
It sounds like your situation is more than transient burnout...? In that case, I would probably set a very clear time limit (e.g. Next October I'll retire from banking) and start setting up your future life today (e.g. pick cities you want to move to, buy a place, start looking for jobs, etc.).
Have you taken a sabbatical at all during your time in banking? At my old bank A2As got a month off for example. Given you just got promoted to VP, could be worth seeing if you could swing that at some point and maybe that can be a good reset and also allow you to think about your future w/ a clearer mind. Just a thought, best of luck.
Not really an option, at least formally. I MIGHT be able to swing it as I think I could make a decent case for it and if it came down to giving me one or losing me, they might cave. Have thought about it. It would be burning a lot of that goodwill though
I think about this a lot. I'd tell you a few things:
1. Every job has its negatives, so don't think the annoying parts of banking only existing in banking. At any job, you'll still have dumb requests, bitch work from internal or external stakeholders, managers who don't add value, etc. In corporate, you'll get all that plus Type B employees, endless meetings, hierarchy, slow-moving processes, etc.
2. Your willingness to pursue another job depends on long-term goals. You need to define those. Start by focusing on what gets you excited or interested in the morning. Talk to other people outside of banking - corporate, investors, startups, non-profits/gov, small/local biz owners, etc. Learn what they do on a day-to-day and project level. See what excites you and what doesn't.
3. Recognize that, at its most simplistic sense, banking is an endless cycle of deal execution, in which each promotion from Analyst-->MD gives you bigger "ownership" of those processes. Other jobs can be less boring, as boring, or more boring. Don't think leaving banking is a panacea for that grind. This ultimately goes back to figuring out what motivates you.
4. Don't bother finding the ideal job - think more along the lines of what each job gives you, whether that's experience, network, skills, etc.
5. If you're losing your health or your relationships are severely damaged, then you might want to try leaving ASAP. No one cares about you or your health except yourself and hopefully your family. Look out for yourself. Don't let a job and/or its money ruin your health and curtail your high-earning years.
I always think about leaving. I hope to be in the upper echelons of companies in my industry (VP and up) so I think there's tremendous value to seeing how companies run. But I don't want to jump ship yet and will stay in for a few more years, unless I find other roles that can grow my skillset in a similar environment (perhaps investing, though I am not gung-ho about that).
Mid level PE professional here (ignore the title)
Just quit man, once you start having these thoughts there's no going back. Once people exit they never say "oh I wish I could get back on the horse". It just doesn't happen for a reason - once you're free, you're free.
I actually had the exact same thoughts at this point in my career (~5 years in). Was sick of finance (was in PE at this point), didn't want to be there anymore, didn't really like even the partners' lifestyles, wound up taking a sabbatical and then leaving for an operational role. It's not clear to me if you are thinking about leaving just IB or if you are talking about leaving finance altogether, but both are worth thinking about. For me, I just didn't really think I wanted the lifestyle of any of the senior finance guys I met, with a few exceptions. I also realized I would much rather be pretty happy making good (but not great) money but with extra free time/lower stress, as opposed to making great money but minimal free time/much higher stress.
^ this is a good point. A good measure is when you look up and don’t see anyone you want to be then you should get out.
1. I'm sure you'll benefit from reading this: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/quit-vs-stay-a-better-way-to-thi…
2. I read your post a few times and my intuition's telling me that you'd love to make this work somehow and stay in IB.
Q#1: Forget work. How's your personal life? Love, relationships, friends, other aspirations? Is there anything missing? If you fixed that, would you still post this post here?
Q#2: Your team likes you, you have a lot of goodwill built up... What's the root of your stress? I mean the ROOT.
Q#3: "will make a serious lifestyle change". What do you mean? What is that serious lifestyle change? You haven't mentioned anything about what you really want... your post was only about what you don't want/hate.
PM me, happy to chat further. Angelos.
Similar profile, following with interest
Not exactly the same profile, but lateraled out halfway through my A1 year after going to A2A, but we're close in age. I actually regret leaving. Realized that I was so burned out and apathetic that a change in scenery didn't do anything to better my life. I'm bored af at my new job (still in finance), think it's meaningless and a waste of time, and would rather still be making the money that I was in IB. I may very well go back to IB, give it another 6-7 years, move to a lower COL area and effectively retire.
If you're sure that it's specifically the work that you're doing that you think is meaningless, then maybe a change of scenery is good. But if you think it would be just as meaningless to sit in an office and do anything else, a change of scenery isn't going to change anything.
A few years older than you and was in the exact same position a year ago. In reality, you have into your early Director years to make a jump outside of banking before the revenue-generation pressures start and you/your employer see the writing on the wall. Some banks won't promote you to Director until they see your clear path to revenue generation, so YMMV.
It isn't a bad idea to start conversations with recruiters/your network to see if the dream exit comes along. However, don't discount the massive nest egg you can build at this stage of your IB career - I imagine I saved $1mm alone in my last three years in banking after "paying my dues" in my mid 20s. That nest egg will allow me certain freedoms the rest of my career that may not have been possible if I had "rushed" to leave IB. In a normal comp job, I'd suggest leaving as soon as you feel that burn out and apathy, but the opportunity cost of the incremental year as a senior banker can't be discounted.
What title did you leave IB at and what title did you enter PE at?
Left IB as young Director and went to industry one level below CFO.
What about getting an MBA and taking a 2 year vacation? Sure there's some missed opportunity cost, but it gives you a chance to reset and keep up the grind after. If you have goodwill with the firm they may even offer to help cover the costs.
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