All or Nothing: IBD

Hey WSO,

Lately, I've come to accept the fact that as it stands, I'm highly unlikely to get the IBD job I (and many others) dream of. It's approaching the midpoint of summer and not only am I unemployed, but my resume is lacking a key element of a successful BB applicant: a good school, and a good GPA. I know top-tier isn't the end-all, but it's what I want.

I know that I can make it by going the avenue of networking, but this will only get me so far. Additionally, I don't have direct investment banking experience. My internships are in management consulting, PM at an Asset Management firm, and MO/BO finance at the same asset manager.

My FT interviews were all at boutiques which gave me shitty offers or none, no MM firms and an international BB (RBS, BTMU, SG) which rejected my candidacy. However, just being invited to participate in the interview process motivates me to not lose sight of the goal.

That said, I'm considering a MSF program beginning in 2013. I'm taking graduate classes this fall as a non-matriculated student to begin building an alternate transcript, and apply for the cohort entering next year. This means I won't be out of the academic maze for another 2 years.

Can anyone with knowledge of this subject chime in: what options would I have going into, and exiting, a MSF program?

I have a year before starting (pending acceptance), so should I intern, or keep whatever full-time job I find in the meantime?

Can I apply to SA positions for summer 2013?

Lastly, if anyone has successfully used a MSF to break in, can you tell your story?

Thanks for your feedback. I've already used search, so I'm looking for more informed perspectives. SB's for great replies!

 

OK, let's take a step back and think about what it is that attracted you to IB in the first place. If you want it for the wrong reasons, then steer clear because you're just spinning your wheels. Beyond that, I guess you should talk to ANT (aka TNA). But please, know why you're fighting this fight and make sure this is a career that's actually right for you and something you want. If all you want is to be a billionaire, banking won't help you anyway.

 
turtles:
OK, let's take a step back and think about what it is that attracted you to IB in the first place. If you want it for the wrong reasons, then steer clear because you're just spinning your wheels. Beyond that, I guess you should talk to ANT (aka TNA). But please, know why you're fighting this fight and make sure this is a career that's actually right for you and something you want. If all you want is to be a billionaire, banking won't help you anyway.

Thanks turtles. I appreciate your thoughts on considering why I want to do IBD, but I'm under no impression that I'll be a billionaire. I'm very interested in the field and would like to have access to great opportunities after my two analyst years are up. Additionally, if in time I decide to attend MBA school, I want to be competitive for the top programs. Basically, it's about breaking in to the industry in as good shape as possible.

All other advice is appreciated!

in it 2 win it
 
Vontropnats:
valuationGURU:
Why did you turn down the boutique "shitty" offers? Experience is better than a MSF!
+1 on this...

I'd like to hear more on this. These aren't boutiques anyone has heard of - more the type that barely have websites and are relatively new (est. less than 5 years) down on Wall Street.

Do you think it would still be worth my time to accept an offer from a place like that as opposed to fixing my academics? What about unpaid positions?

in it 2 win it
 

I don't understand why you wouldn't do a 2-3 year stint at a boutique, try to get your story all straight, kill the GMAT, and try to grind your way into a solid MBA program to them go for a place like JPM. I think you're right -- lateraling from a no-name boutique to JPM is essentially impossible (sure, someone with true willpower might get lucky and break in, but by and large...), but after an MBA program you'd be set.

 
Vontropnats:
I don't understand why you wouldn't do a 2-3 year stint at a boutique, try to get your story all straight, kill the GMAT, and try to grind your way into a solid MBA program to them go for a place like JPM. I think you're right -- lateraling from a no-name boutique to JPM is essentially impossible (sure, someone with true willpower might get lucky and break in, but by and large...), but after an MBA program you'd be set.

Realistically speaking, not everyone applying to MBA programs has only 2-3 years of experience. Many of them have 5-8 years in various fields, doing work much more complex than finance, from much better overall backgrounds (academic and otherwise) than myself.

This leaves me to compete in the finance pool of applicants. Assuming 1/4 of applicants are from a business background, I'm now the non-target kid with bad grades and a boutique job going up against Tony Stark Jr. and his Harvard "AB Economics, 4.0," which he followed up with 2 years at GS and another 2 at KKR.

I don't like thinking about the odds in that situation.

in it 2 win it
 
FSC:
Vontropnats:
I don't understand why you wouldn't do a 2-3 year stint at a boutique, try to get your story all straight, kill the GMAT, and try to grind your way into a solid MBA program to them go for a place like JPM. I think you're right -- lateraling from a no-name boutique to JPM is essentially impossible (sure, someone with true willpower might get lucky and break in, but by and large...), but after an MBA program you'd be set.

Realistically speaking, not everyone applying to MBA programs has only 2-3 years of experience. Many of them have 5-8 years in various fields, doing work much more complex than finance, from much better overall backgrounds (academic and otherwise) than myself.

This leaves me to compete in the finance pool of applicants. Assuming 1/4 of applicants are from a business background, I'm now the non-target kid with bad grades and a boutique job going up against Tony Stark Jr. and his Harvard "AB Economics, 4.0," which he followed up with 2 years at GS and another 2 at KKR.

I don't like thinking about the odds in that situation.

We seem to share a similar background, I went to a non-target tech school (think MIT, CalTech, etc.), poor grades from working too much, etc. Here's my advice, take it with a grain of salt:

1) You need to get this in your mind, "fuck the ivy league rich shits." Their grades are inflated, the majority of their families are loaded, etc. Get it in your head and balls that you have the willpower to go wherever the fuck you want to go.

2) Start getting really good at something, you need to quit being one of those "I want to do I-Banking because it's banking, ah durrr!" I highly recommend specializing in something so 'niche', you'll blow the minds of the people you network or interview with. Do not be too niche where there is no future demand for it, forecast your specialization and see where its steering.

I have a finance background but I studied the hell out of a specific area in biotech, in turn, helping to land me a great VC gig not even 2 years into my first job. If you show people that you're willing to go a certain niche, they will think you can "adapt" to anything.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change" - Charles Darwin

Just my advice, not right or wrong..

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow, learn as if you were to live forever."
 

What the heck makes you think doing an MSF will get you into IB????

Is there some fucking golden plaque with the rules of the world that says that will happen?

MSF are fricking expensive, I hope you got cash to pay for that because sounds like you wouldn't be a scholarship student. If you pick up debt for this and still don't have a job you are double fucked.

Look kid, not to sound like a prick but sort out a few ego issues first.

You passed on "shitty" boutique offers. Ok. Now you are unemployed. I don't know your financial background but unless "mommy and daddy" are footing all your bills - did that seem like a prudent idea. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to throw this at your face but you sound like an entitled douchebag. Seriously, "IBD job that I dream of". How long have you had this fantasy dream and why.

Continue to network and take whatever comes your way. Stop being an entitled bitch - It's one of the things that disheartens me about wall street/financier types.

Try getting a corporate finance job, work at a mutual fund, work as a financial adviser, something.

Signed, Private Equity Employee

 
prudentinvestor:
What the heck makes you think doing an MSF will get you into IB????

Is there some fucking golden plaque with the rules of the world that says that will happen?

MSF are fricking expensive, I hope you got cash to pay for that because sounds like you wouldn't be a scholarship student. If you pick up debt for this and still don't have a job you are double fucked.

Look kid, not to sound like a prick but sort out a few ego issues first.

You passed on "shitty" boutique offers. Ok. Now you are unemployed. I don't know your financial background but unless "mommy and daddy" are footing all your bills - did that seem like a prudent idea. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to throw this at your face but you sound like an entitled douchebag. Seriously, "IBD job that I dream of". How long have you had this fantasy dream and why.

Continue to network and take whatever comes your way. Stop being an entitled bitch - It's one of the things that disheartens me about wall street/financier types.

Try getting a corporate finance job, work at a mutual fund, work as a financial adviser, something.

Signed, Private Equity Employee

I think it stands to reason that if I'm getting interviews now, and I can tell that my grades are a problem, fixing them is more likely than not to yield even more favorable results (so long as I keep up with work experience).

Beyond that, I don't think my finances are anything you should be concerned with. I'm satisfied with the way I've handled situations more difficult than paying for school.

It sounds like the general consensus is that work experience is as or more important than just fixing my grades. I can see the value of solid work and networking, but a limitation is a limitation and my grades will remain a problem for certain things. I'll look into part-time MSF programs and if I can't/don't need to do one due to work, I'll look forward to the MBA.

Thanks everyone! I'm open to any further advice.

in it 2 win it
 

^ Since when is MIT or CalTech non-target ? Maybe most student don't choose to go into banking but if they wanted to then they would have great chances to get in to say the least.

Perhaps working for one of those "shitty boutiques" for two years and then doing an MSF could land you into an associate role at a bulge bracket. You have the practical experience but you would also have the educational reset button to improve your GPA and get into the Bulge Bracket firms. I'm in a similar place to you and I am thinking of doing something along those lines.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain
 

why don't you just work yourself into a good MBA program?

2 years of dicking around + MSF tuition + opportunity cost is very expensive in my opinion.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid"
 
Best Response

in my experience MSF's are a waste of time, viewed on the street as just an excuse to make up for pure laziness during your four years of undergrad (whether that is true or not) - almost all MSF's programs get recruited for the same analyst positions as undergrad's do, you will have NO advantage in terms of getting an associate position over an analyst position if you do your MSF.

Also - show a little humility, don't let this website make you believe a lot of the lies that come across here. I work at a middle market boutique in ER (very happily) and a girl that works here with me just got a IBD job offer at Lazard (which she accepted), your career is what you make of it. If someone offers you a job, in this economy, you take it, period. Especially if it is in the career you want to do, I'll stop there before I rant....

Also - almost nobody has any deal flow these days (or bonuses for that matter), so don't let it be a back breaker haha

 

Join the military and go for special ops (no, the other kind...). That's free, actually they pay you, and your chances of getting a job at a BB will be a hell of a lot higher with that background than if you were to just go for a MSF and pray that it lands you the job of your dreams.

 
turtles:
Join the military and go for special ops (no, the other kind...). That's free, actually they pay you, and your chances of getting a job at a BB will be a hell of a lot higher with that background than if you were to just go for a MSF and pray that it lands you the job of your dreams.

Someone please clarify this and whether it is a worthy way to navigate the system (all things considered)

DLJ Analyst Class '96
 
TheMilkman:
turtles:
Join the military and go for special ops (no, the other kind...). That's free, actually they pay you, and your chances of getting a job at a BB will be a hell of a lot higher with that background than if you were to just go for a MSF and pray that it lands you the job of your dreams.

Someone please clarify this and whether it is a worthy way to navigate the system (all things considered)

This is a fucking awful idea, I don't even do the shit full time and I know it's a bad idea and btw I'm not a POG MOS either, combat arms or nothing.

WSO should stop putting military service in general on a pedestal, yes there are the elite communities and branch rivalry etc. With the conclusion of two wars and the wind-down of the US military there's a shitload of Vets out there. But even more, the most commonly talked about units that fall under SOCOM or JSOC are the less than 1%ER's. So it's not like you just join and say 'okay send me that way for the cool shit', no you grind it out like everyone else: boot, MOS school, indoc/screening, specialty school... hell you could be in a 'school' for a 2-3 years before becoming operational. This is not a path to IB.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 

OP, you sound like such a clown for shooting down boutiques when you have nothing. Do you know what the hiring climate is like out there yet? You'd have put together some presentations for small deals and placements, built a few real life models (not some cheesy harvard case study BS) and before you know it you're very hireable to a decent firm. Experience trumps the shit out of education and grades.

I did did a semi-target MSF a few years ago and it's not a magic fix-all. Only the people who really hustled with networking (I don't mean sending form cold emails either, but pounding the pavement for informationals with anyone friendly enough to have you into their office, Bolt Bus baby!) , interview prep, grades etc. were able to land IB jobs, myself included.

Just my opinion on the situation, sorry if it seems harsh, I'm just trying to be realistic about it

 
adapt or die:
OP, you sound like such a clown for shooting down boutiques when you have nothing. Do you know what the hiring climate is like out there yet? You'd have put together some presentations for small deals and placements, built a few real life models (not some cheesy harvard case study BS) and before you know it you're very hireable to a decent firm. Experience trumps the shit out of education and grades.

I did did a semi-target MSF a few years ago and it's not a magic fix-all. Only the people who really hustled with networking (I don't mean sending form cold emails either, but pounding the pavement for informationals with anyone friendly enough to have you into their office, Bolt Bus baby!) , interview prep, grades etc. were able to land IB jobs, myself included.

Just my opinion on the situation, sorry if it seems harsh, I'm just trying to be realistic about it

Somewhere in this thread people began to assume that I got a paid offer from a boutique - I should have clarified in the beginning that "shitty offers" meant unpaid internships and even unpaid "analyst" positions, which I didn't think would yield a return offer. Also, there's no confusion on the part that I need to continue to gain experience; hanging around for the next two years would be pretty stupid. I am still eligible for the same unpaid positions.

I'm not discrediting experience - my post is to gain insight on how far a MSF may potentially take me. Maybe the gladiator picture was too much.

On the second part: duly noted. I'm honestly looking at semi-target MSF programs as well, and I'm glad to hear that dose of reality this early.

BepBep12:
Now to answer the OP and I realized my last post was kind of rambling, but I got a little excited and blurted everything out. To avoid, I'll number my points.
  1. There is a lot of disinformation in this thread already with some saying no-name boutique experience is better than an MSF and vice-versa. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule when it comes to experience vs. MSF and choosing one over the other will result in a set of consequences and by consequence I don't mean good/bad, a set of paths. One is not better than the other, but will require a different macro strategy over your career. I'll enumerate in the following points w/ some hypothetical info.

  2. With the boutique experience you gain the 'real world' skill set that an IBer will get at junior levels and probably a bit more since your responsibilities might be greater at a tiny shop. You also get paid and will probably have some networking opportunities to lateral out of the shop if your good. In the short-term this seems like the best choice; however, over the long term it may present difficulties. For example, if you fail to lateral out you will be a weaker candidate for an MBA. Adcoms will see no-name boutique, 20-something male, finance, non-target, weak GPA and lump you in with the other 'wallstreet-type finance guys'. A corporate finance candidate coming from a strong brand name could get chosen over this simple categorization even though their finance acumen may not be as strong as an IBer's. Second, it will limit your exit options to PE or w/e alternative asset financial services firm you choose to go to. A small, no-name shop with no track record probably would present you with limit exit opps to a field like PE. Finally, deal flow may be uneven or non-existent at times which would be detrimental to your development. You will probably live an die by the deal because you won't get a formal training program like bigger BBs and MMs so this may handicap you. So I see short-term benefits and longer-term challenges to this.

  3. Granted that you get in, which if your description of yourself is accurate may be a challenge, an MSF will provide a re-brand and access to OCR if the program is good. However, the problem that I see with this is that everyone thinks that their incoming cohort are going to be rejects from the last recruiting cycles or somehow not as strong as their peers who they competed against at the UG level. MSF recruiting is tough [you have to compete w/ UGs at the 'target' and also justify why an MSF] and while you have OCR and an alumni network you also have peers in your program that will shine brightly, not everyone is at an MSF because they need a 'do-over', some people legitimately just need more brand equity and not a chance to get better grades or whatever. So you've got to be prepared to compete and grind at an MSF, yes it will give you an alumni network and OCR, but you may be out-shined by your cohort, be advised. An MSF could truly be a waste of time if you're coming in w/ a shitass GPA, your story isn't clear, and you don't have meaningful internships.

  4. An MSF is a band aid and not a fuckin tourniquet, if you're fucked up before you go in you'll be D.O.A. come recruiting.

I'de recommend that you have the best of both worlds, beg, plead, do whatever to get that IB job back and then exit in a year towards an MSF. You won't be able to outrun your crapass school or GPA, but you have patch it up with some solid experience bolster by a new alumni network and brand. So... do both man.

Thanks a lot for the advice, +1.

I think you outlined everything considered by myself and most people in this thread. And my plan of action right now is exactly as you said - work, then do MSF (potentially part-time, depends on what job I may have at the time I need to decide). Thanks a lot for all the insight.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

in it 2 win it
 

Now to answer the OP and I realized my last post was kind of rambling, but I got a little excited and blurted everything out. To avoid, I'll number my points.

  1. There is a lot of disinformation in this thread already with some saying no-name boutique experience is better than an MSF and vice-versa. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule when it comes to experience vs. MSF and choosing one over the other will result in a set of consequences and by consequence I don't mean good/bad, a set of paths. One is not better than the other, but will require a different macro strategy over your career. I'll enumerate in the following points w/ some hypothetical info.

  2. With the boutique experience you gain the 'real world' skill set that an IBer will get at junior levels and probably a bit more since your responsibilities might be greater at a tiny shop. You also get paid and will probably have some networking opportunities to lateral out of the shop if your good. In the short-term this seems like the best choice; however, over the long term it may present difficulties. For example, if you fail to lateral out you will be a weaker candidate for an MBA. Adcoms will see no-name boutique, 20-something male, finance, non-target, weak GPA and lump you in with the other 'wallstreet-type finance guys'. A corporate finance candidate coming from a strong brand name could get chosen over this simple categorization even though their finance acumen may not be as strong as an IBer's. Second, it will limit your exit options to PE or w/e alternative asset financial services firm you choose to go to. A small, no-name shop with no track record probably would present you with limit exit opps to a field like PE. Finally, deal flow may be uneven or non-existent at times which would be detrimental to your development. You will probably live an die by the deal because you won't get a formal training program like bigger BBs and MMs so this may handicap you. So I see short-term benefits and longer-term challenges to this.

  3. Granted that you get in, which if your description of yourself is accurate may be a challenge, an MSF will provide a re-brand and access to OCR if the program is good. However, the problem that I see with this is that everyone thinks that their incoming cohort are going to be rejects from the last recruiting cycles or somehow not as strong as their peers who they competed against at the UG level. MSF recruiting is tough [you have to compete w/ UGs at the 'target' and also justify why an MSF] and while you have OCR and an alumni network you also have peers in your program that will shine brightly, not everyone is at an MSF because they need a 'do-over', some people legitimately just need more brand equity and not a chance to get better grades or whatever. So you've got to be prepared to compete and grind at an MSF, yes it will give you an alumni network and OCR, but you may be out-shined by your cohort, be advised. An MSF could truly be a waste of time if you're coming in w/ a shitass GPA, your story isn't clear, and you don't have meaningful internships.

  4. An MSF is a band aid and not a fuckin tourniquet, if you're fucked up before you go in you'll be D.O.A. come recruiting.

I'de recommend that you have the best of both worlds, beg, plead, do whatever to get that IB job back and then exit in a year towards an MSF. You won't be able to outrun your crapass school or GPA, but you have patch it up with some solid experience bolster by a new alumni network and brand. So... do both man.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 

I wouldn't bother w/ a part-time or semi-target MSF... there are enough inherent issues with the MSF route already, compounding them w/ a crap school or part time mumbo-jumbo. Work this year and then just bite the bullet, knock your GMAT out of the park, write great essays and get into a target. Why would you want to play the same stupid respect game that you did at the UG-level.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 

Haven't read most of the comments, but if I'm understanding this correctly you turned down banking summer offers because they were unpaid and at no-name shops? If so, this is the reason why our economy is doing so poorly and why so many capable people are unemployed around Wall Street. It's not beneath you to work there, and it sure beats the shit out of doing nothing all summer, paid or not. Lots of people do this, and you notice it more on this site since so many people are focused on prestige and one-upping each other, but they don't realize that none of that stuff means anything because you're splitting hairs at the top end. The work at a no-name boutique is going to be more or less the same if you're working on a deal as it would be at a BB, so I don't see why someone would feel entitled to needing a name brand shop on their resume and see unemployment as the next best option.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
 

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