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"Alternative Facts"

DickFuld's picture
Rank: The Pro | 25,342

Who saw the interview with Kellyanne Conway on Meet the Press this morning where she outlined the "alternative facts" the press secretary was offering yesterday about the about the size of the crowd at the inauguration on Friday? Truly bizarre that White House representatives are concerned about the size of the crowds at the inauguration and now they are trying to defend a claim that is easy to verify as incorrect.

Is it 1984 yet?

Comments (203)

Best Response
Jan 22, 2017

Our country's leadership is now pushing arguable, provable facts as complete lies and falsehoods. We've reached a point in time where the White House is putting out blatantly false information on the first couple days of the new administration. We've started denouncing all media that isn't in favor of our leader as "fake news" and "dishonest". Our President has spouted that all disapproving polls of him are "inaccurate" - everyone "loves him." He's ignoring petitions and pleas from the people, many of whom still want him to release his tax returns, and stating that "they don't really want them." This has gotten completely out of hand, and our government is starting to become an actual propaganda machine, which disregards actual facts in favor of some North Korea-esque disinformation.

Scottie Nell Hughes touched on this from her lens and put it aptly at what we're seeing right now (ironically?):

One thing that's been interesting this campaign season to watch is that people that say facts are facts -- they're not really facts. Everybody has a way -- it's kind of like looking at ratings or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth or not true. There's no such thing, unfortunately anymore, of facts.

This is how modern propaganda works. There is no such thing as facts any more with this administration, and I'm incredibly concerned on the impact this will have and the precedent it will set. Anything Trump says is now fact and we can't listen to any alternatives on the matter? Wonderful - we're in for the greatest presidency that this country has ever seen.

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Jan 22, 2017

How insightful. I am now truly convinced that this is the first time our government has "lied" to us.

Jan 22, 2017

You're deflecting. Let's just give him a free pass on this because "hey, what the hell, past Presidents have done it also!"

We all know the government has lied to us in many ways throughout the years. There is something new and a bit different that we're seeing today and it's slowly becoming the new norm for our country - easily disproven claims designed to shore up the image of our insecure leader? Kim Jong Trump reigns in unopposed! With a world record golf score.

Anyway, my point is that the lies seen over this campaign cycle have slowly worked their way down the totem pole to some of the most easily verifiable claims and statements being spun to be false. We're not talking implicit bias, or leaving out parts of a statement here - we're talking "the sky is green" level lies. It's a step in the wrong direction, we should be moving towards fixing the corruption issues, not worsening them. Again, just think what precedent it sets for the next President, and imagine how much worse it could get if we continue that behavior.

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Jan 24, 2017

"If you like your insurance plan you can keep it." Obama

I believe the Wash Post ranked this the lie of the year for 2013. Lies in politics are nothing new. Lying about 1/6 of the U.S. economy as Obama did is a much bigger issue.

Jan 24, 2017

Not being able to keep your doctor/insurance was not known a priori. The ACA is a complex piece of legislation both legally and economically. Analyses of the ACA supported Obama's assertion that people wouldn't lose their insurance. It was indeed hyperbole to definitively say that if you like your insurance you can keep it but it wasn't a lie. Being incorrect is not the same as lying. The weatherman isn't "lying" when he says that it will rain tomorrow and it doesn't. It's just that the meteorological models predicted rain and there wasn't any.

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Jan 22, 2017

I feel like it would be much easier and simpler to just admit he's been trolling us and he has no intention of actually following through on any of the identity related stuff. That shit has no place and it's not like trying to change the color of the US will help anyone. Just focus on raising incomes, fixing our debt situation, and balancing international relations.

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Jan 22, 2017

This whole "post-truth" thing is getting out of hand. It doesn't help that the CIA has a poor track-record of honesty and that making a big to-do of Russian hacking while not really offering solid evidence or proposing remedial action makes the whole thing look like a push for more funding.

It's interesting (maybe that's a euphemism for extremely concerning), to see how quickly things have devolved from partisan fake news on Facebook to full-blown official propaganda and generalized nonsense, including for things as dumb as the size of the crowd at the inauguration.

I still think there's a 40% chance he's out of office in the next 6 months. It would be complete chaos, but what a mess of a first couple days.

Anyhow, I hope I can get a couple things deregulated in my industry before the punch bowl gets taken away.

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Jan 23, 2017
GoodBread:

This whole "post-truth" thing is getting out of hand. It doesn't help that the CIA has a poor track-record of honesty and that making a big to-do of Russian hacking while not really offering solid evidence or proposing remedial action makes the whole thing look like a push for more funding.

It's interesting (maybe that's a euphemism for extremely concerning), to see how quickly things have devolved from partisan fake news on Facebook to full-blown official propaganda and generalized nonsense, including for things as dumb as the size of the crowd at the inauguration.

I still think there's a 40% chance he's out of office in the next 6 months. It would be complete chaos, but what a mess of a first couple days.

Anyhow, I hope I can get a couple things deregulated in my industry before the punch bowl gets taken away.

They aren't required to provide "solid evidence"... every single American intelligence agency confirmed their report, as did international intelligence agencies and private contractors...

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Jan 23, 2017

The verbiage is actually the CIA & FBI gave "high confidence" and the NSA gave "moderate confidence" in the published reports findings.

Jan 23, 2017

Gee, you gotta love that "slam-dunk" evidence. Come one man.

Jan 22, 2017

Trump's election has thus far been excellent for democracy, and I think it will continue to be excellent for democracy, assuming the integrity of our institutions isn't compromised.

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Jan 22, 2017

Having a guy with 2,864,974 less votes than his opponent win an election is excellent for democracy? Something tells me the founding fathers would have reconsidered the electoral college if they had seen this election.

I don't think anyone disagrees that that the establishment needed a good kick in the balls (as if they had any left), but good for democracy? Really?

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Jan 22, 2017
GoodBread:

Having a guy with 2,864,974 less votes than his opponent win an election is excellent for democracy? Something tells me the founding fathers would have reconsidered the electoral college if they had seen this election.

I don't think anyone disagrees that that the establishment needed a good kick in the balls (as if they had any left), but good for democracy? Really?

My post can be interpreted in many different ways. I'll leave it at that.

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Jan 22, 2017
GoodBread:

Having a guy with 2,864,974 less votes than his opponent win an election is excellent for democracy? Something tells me the founding fathers would have reconsidered the electoral college if they had seen this election.

I don't think anyone disagrees that that the establishment needed a good kick in the balls (as if they had any left), but good for democracy? Really?

This election is the perfect example of why the founding fathers instituted the electoral college. Trump won the popular vote by over 2 million votes and he won about 90% of the counties, once you ignore California. California would have basically dictated the result of the entire election if it wasn't for the electoral college.

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Jan 22, 2017

Liberal tears are delicious

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Jan 23, 2017

This is too funny!

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Jan 22, 2017

Well there's lying like "my inauguration broke attendance records" and then there's lying like:

  1. "You can keep your doctors if you like them"
  2. "The attack on the embassy was a response to anti-Islamic video!"
  3. "No the government isn't illegally wire tapping you"
  4. "If you pass my stimulus package unemployment won't go above 8.0 percent!"
  5. "The IRS is not intentionally targeting conservative groups"

You see what I mean? So far, no big deal. But we shall see.

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Jan 22, 2017

Alternative facts are flying around all over the place. Did Trump write his own speech like he said, did The Brothers Steve write it, who knows...magic 8 ball says answer hazy, try again

Guys let's try to decide on the best over-under for how long it will take Trump to get kicked out, one way or the other. Maybe it can be next WSO poll?

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Jan 22, 2017

It's a trivial thing to lie about, but he is still being elected, so to speak. He feels the need to validate his legitimacy to the public, in the face of some very loud and unhappy voices.

I usually reserve my judgement as I'm not an American, but the fact people are protesting the result of a democratic election is extremely petty. He won - move on. This goes for him too.

Jan 23, 2017

"he is still being elected, so to speak"

"the fact people are protesting the result of a democratic election is extremely petty"

Please explain how these two statements don't contradict each other.

Also, if you are referencing the women's march when you talk about protests, it's a pretty unfair strawman to say that people are protesting the election - it's a lot more nuanced than that.

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Jan 23, 2017
CHItizen:

"he is still being elected, so to speak"

"the fact people are protesting the result of a democratic election is extremely petty"

Please explain how these two statements don't contradict each other.

Also, if you are referencing the women's march when you talk about protests, it's a pretty unfair strawman to say that people are protesting the election - it's a lot more nuanced than that.

He is still being elected in the court of public opinion. I find that petty.

Not sure what part you found contradictory.

I'm not just referring to the Women's march.

Jan 23, 2017

Kind sir,

It became 1984 when Snowden exposed the NSA, if I remember correctly.

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Jan 23, 2017

I'm a pretty solid Trump supporter. Really hoped he would stop getting in these stupid meaningless pissing matches once he took office. Looks like I might be disappointed.

Sometimes I just want to shake him and be like, "Donald you won the election. Just STFU and get working on stuff (improving HC, reforming tax code, repealing regulation, etc.)".

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Jan 23, 2017

That is exactly where I am at. With all the praise I've heard being given to Kushner for his efforts in advising Trump, I would like to think that every once in a while he would say "this isn't a good idea".

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Jan 23, 2017

Next time someone shows you who they truly are, you might want to believe them.

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Jan 25, 2017

I agree with you, but I also think there is a purposeful reason they are doing this. You get the media talking about irrelevant things and not focused on stopping your policy. Congressional Democrats' opposition to appointments and to policies has been completely drowned out in the news cycle. I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that Steve Bannon is backing this tactic.

Jan 25, 2017
Virginia Tech 4ever:

I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that Steve Bannon is backing this tactic.

Wouldn't be a Republican administration without some trailer park Rasputin running shit.

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Jan 23, 2017

86% of republicans, 70% of independents, and 49% of democrats don't trust the media. Trump knows what he is doing, you discredit the media and continually paint them as untrustworthy and those percentages may go even higher. If the media isn't trusted to fact-check and investigate his presidency with accuracy then he can do/ say whatever the fuck he wants. Blatant lies can be painted as truths because you can't trust the media to report the truth etc.

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Jan 23, 2017

No one trusts the media because the media lies and manipulates the truth. This isn't Trumps doing.

Jan 23, 2017

No one discussed the source of the media distrust, I simply said he is using it to delegitimize the media in order to obfuscate any over-sight of his administration.... and he is largely succeeding.

p.s. I don't think the media lies outright, the media is sensationalist (what you would call manipulating the truth for eyeballs and clicks) but I trust them to tell the factual truth much more so than politicians... including and especially Donald Trump.

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Jan 26, 2017

I don't even know where to begin in trying to comprehend your utter disregard for realizing your own double standards. Let's just be upfront about this - you push this tirade against the media and how upset you are that they push "lies" yet you have no backbone or confidence to even admit when its become a problem in your own party. Your false pursuit of truth or some form of credibility and distaste for lies are not based on objective grounds, and you only care about manipulating the truth when it goes against your political beliefs.

You concern yourself with all these "lies" the media is telling, but whenever Trump is seen lying for seemingly no reason at all, you're the first one to make up excuses for why it's all of a sudden "ok" or that nobody cares

Case in point: Kellyanne Conway tweeted and pushed a story that CNN linked to a BuzzFeed report - this was an "alternative fact" you even pushed on these forums many times, and have failed to even acknowledge was incorrect - in reality, you can go to the actual report put out by CNN and see that it does no such thing, and this has been addressed by the media many times.

Trump said he'd release his tax returns "as soon as the audit is complete" during the election. Now the administration has said they intend to do no such thing. You pushed this as being fine because "nobody cares".

Trump tweeted that "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive." That is an actual tweet from the President of the United States. Doesn't matter for some reason.

It's gotten to the point where Trump's press secretary has just got in front of the nation today and claimed "sometimes we can disagree with facts." And your response is "This isn't Trump's doing".

Imagine if CNN released a full blown article today saying they can "disagree with facts". What the actual fuck?

You know what I see? I see the current administration engaging in copious amounts of lies that we, and even yourself, can list for days - it's gotten to the level that they'd rather engage in a debate for days over the fucking size of the crowd at the inauguration, and can't bring themselves to see it any other logical way but through the lens of their own falsehoods.

You know what happened when the "media" fucked up last week on publishing that Trump removed the MLK bust? Zeke Miller issued a retraction, and a public apology for the mix-up. It took him ~a day to do this. Do you know how the current administration is handling similar issues? The White House just went on national television and issued the statement that they can "disagree with facts."

Media: 1. Trump: 0.

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Jan 23, 2017

Great thread. 10/10.

In other real news, Trump formally pulled the US out of TPP, indicated to business leaders that he plans on pushing tax and regulation cuts and is meeting with business leaders to push his employ Americans plan.

But Yeah, let's talk about this none issue that the press was pushing because they are pety and only want to crap on Trump.

As for the 1984 quip, were already there and you can thank the lying press and liberal thought police for it, not Trump.

Jan 23, 2017

dude, the only reason this is a topic is b/c the press secretary called his first ever conference and made this a story... If it had been ignored, as you suggest we ignore it in favor of more substantial stories, by the administration then this wouldn't be a topic... No one here is discussing the initial reporting of slim crowds at the inauguration, what they are discussing is the administration's thin-skinned, lying (alternative facts - w/e you wanna call it) approach to what shouldn't even matter.

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Jan 23, 2017

Stop making excuses for Trump.

I'm guessing you never read the TPP, it would have kept us competitive and put us as the author of the playbook for almost 2/3rds the global economy. Which expands our influence and security, while weakening our adversaries. But hey, I'm sure we'll be competitive on shit like auto parts when they face 27% tariffs in countries who also have free trade agreements with China for the same shit.

He just fucked middle America. Not that I care, those dumbasses voted for their own downfall.

Jan 23, 2017

Bernie, Hillary and a number of Democrats were against the TPP. You make it like Trump was the only one who thought it would work.

Additionally, we can negotiate with each country individually, to ensure proper trade points with each participant.

And these trade deals are great for US businesses, but often screw over US workers. You know, the people who vote and should be served by the people they elect.

Furthermore, the TPP wasn't negotiated in a transparent way. You can thank Wikileaks for letting people see a taste of what the document held.

But cool. Keep on being hyperbolic and angry.

Jan 23, 2017
ArcherVice:

He just fucked middle America.

He's not stopping there though. His agenda includes plans to dismantle free speech and information flow on the internet...he just appointed a new FCC chairman who's against net neutrality. Trump is literally putting the US on the path to complete destruction

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Jan 23, 2017
TNA:

Great thread. 10/10.

In other real news, Trump formally pulled the US out of TPP, indicated to business leaders that he plans on pushing tax and regulation cuts and is meeting with business leaders to push his employ Americans plan.

But Yeah, let's talk about this none issue that the press was pushing because they are pety and only want to crap on Trump.

As for the 1984 quip, were already there and you can thank the lying press and liberal thought police for it, not Trump.

I used to think you were a reasonable person who weighed issues carefully. Thanks for confirming that I was wrong. It keeps me humble.

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Jan 24, 2017

Yeah TNA has gone full Breitbart over the course of this election.

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Jan 24, 2017
DickFuld:

TNA:Great thread. 10/10.In other real news, Trump formally pulled the US out of TPP, indicated to business leaders that he plans on pushing tax and regulation cuts and is meeting with business leaders to push his employ Americans plan.But Yeah, let's talk about this none issue that the press was pushing because they are pety and only want to crap on Trump.As for the 1984 quip, were already there and you can thank the lying press and liberal thought police for it, not Trump.

I used to think you were a reasonable person who weighed issues carefully. Thanks for confirming that I was wrong. It keeps me humble.

I don't see the need to get personal. TNA is right. A lot of shit has gone down, for better or for worse. The media is still talking about how many people attended/viewed the inauguration.

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Jan 24, 2017

I love how voting for Trump is going to hang like a millstone around his supporters necks for years to come. Do you feel stupid yet? Because you should. Your boy is clearly committed to that end.

Here's some pretty decent analysis as to why he shoved that stooge Spicer out on stage to lie for him:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-23...

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Jan 24, 2017

My impression is that Trump is a stick and a lot of people who have spent the Obama years in discontent are gleefully using that stick to whack on the progressive camp. And I think the progressive camp should take some hits.

But, to belabour the analogy, I think the whackers may come to realise they are holding a snake, not a stick.

Both sides of US politics seem far too partisan, far too eager to attack each other than to look out of the best interests of the nation.

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Jan 24, 2017

Completely agree. I think it comes down to your fundamental world view, and whether it's backward facing or forward facing.

Trump's philosophy (and, by extension, that of his supporters) is backward facing. The very slogan "Make America Great Again" is a philosophical position that America was great at some point in the past, is no longer great, and by returning to the past America can be great once again.

The progressive camp, on the other hand, is by definition forward facing (progress vs. regress). Inherent in that world view is that time marches on, change is a constant (for better or worse), and that social evolution is a necessity in an advanced society.

It's not that there isn't middle ground upon which both can meet, it's more the strident nature of those guiding the ideologies that keeps the two sides apart.

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Jan 24, 2017
SSits:

My impression is that Trump is a stick and a lot of people who have spent the Obama years in discontent are gleefully using that stick to whack on the progressive camp. And I think the progressive camp should take some hits.

But, to belabour the analogy, I think the whackers may come to realise they are holding a snake, not a stick.

Both sides of US politics seem far too partisan, far too eager to attack each other than to look out of the best interests of the nation.

100% agree. I'm conservative in my values, but I'm not so Repub that I was going to vote for someone that clearly showed themselves to be incompetent.

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Jan 24, 2017

In this thread: Social Elites arguing politics

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Jan 24, 2017
differentialequations12:

In this thread: Social Elites arguing politics

Are you not a 'social elite'?

Jan 24, 2017

I would say I'm a notch down (O&G engineer) from the super-bankers here, but still fit that demographic I guess.

I worked part of a summer on a drilling rig as a roughneck. Your perspective changes VERY FAST when you're at the bottom of the totem pole doing all of the grunt work. (Tripping pipe in 100 degree Texas heat, while the executives are finding ways to cut your job and trying to blame you for everything).

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Jan 24, 2017

Inauguration crowd size scandal is yet another thing Trump and his team took advantage of to lead the media astray while he quietly signs executive orders to dismantle everything that actually does make America great.

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Jan 24, 2017

And I assume you were saying the same thing while Obama was quietly signing executive orders during his presidency.

Jan 24, 2017

Barack Obama: 275 executive orders
George Bush: 291 executive orders
Bill Clinton: 365 executive orders
George H.W. Bush: 166 executive orders (332 if you extend over two terms)
Reagan: 381 executive orders
Jimmy Carter: 320 executive orders

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Jan 25, 2017

Saw this and had a good chuckle. Alternative facts sold separately.

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Jan 25, 2017

Your boy is so deluded and insecure in his self aggrandizement that he ordered his press secretary to tell the world they were the largest period. Just look at your man for a minute. Stop "WELL OBAMA." Just look at your man. Look at his education pick, look at the FCC and so on and so forth. Take your partisanship out of it and read his speeches out loud.

Jan 25, 2017

Are you kidding? His Education and FCC picks are among the best picks, especially the FCC pick. The guy has been fighting Obama's FCC tooth and nail for years now, trying to hold the line on their totalitarianism.

Jan 25, 2017

Being against net neutrality is fighting the man? Lmao

Jan 25, 2017

Looks like the army of dummies is having some buyer's remorse:

https://twitter.com/trump_regrets?lang=en

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Jan 25, 2017
Eddie Braverman:

Looks like the army of dummies is having some buyer's remorse:https://twitter.com/trump_regrets?lang=en

Honestly that looks like a paid media campaign if I've ever seen one, and I have.

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Jan 25, 2017

Well, to answer your rhetorical question, we've blown way past 1984. Every interaction you have online up to 3 degrees of separation can be legally tracked, and once you're flagged as being in the network of a known threat, even if you don't know they are a threat, or don't directly even know the person exists, they can monitor everything you do.

All iPhones after 3GS came with a unique identifier that can be tracked enabling monitoring to then convert it to your phone number and unveil the account holders details. Never mind every email you send, text or iMessage, phone call you make, or purchase you make with a card or cash that isn't clean (ATM's track the serial number of cash dispensed) is tracked.

Today the U.S. was downgraded by the EIU to "flawed democracy" - we're in league with Iraq.

We're in 2084.

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Jan 25, 2017

Honestly I think this whole election was a ploy by Patrick to get us to spend some money on this site. I've drained my 5-year stash of wso credits tossing monkey shit at TNA and VTech who have turned into partisan hacks. C'mon guys, I know you want your taxes cut, but this. is. not. normal.

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Jan 26, 2017

Partisan hack?

I've been Republican leaning for my whole life, but as I get older my stance on things have moved more towards the Democrats without the ridiculous taxation crap. I was miserable that Jeb was the anointed Republican and lamented that Clinton and Bush were the best we could get. It was a foregone conclusion that this was what we had.

Cruz is a fucking nut and wouldn't work with anyone. Bernie had the enthusiasm, but I cannot get behind someone giving out "free" college and jumping on every social issue bandwagon.

So you have Trump. A populist. 90% Republican, but pro labor and without the social issues.

It literally blows my mind that people have such an issue with Trump. It probably has similarities to people hating Obamacare, but supporting the ACA. The Trump name is the trigger.

Building the Wall - Border Security Act - Bush policy
Anti Net Neutrality - Standard Republican Policy
Devos - Charter schools/vouchers - Standard Republican Policy
Anti TPP - Democrat Policy (Hillary was against it, all the liberal press hated it, labor hated it)
Cutting Corporate Taxes - Standard Republican Policy
Infrastructure Spending - Republican/Democrat hybrid policy

If you draw a Venn diagram with Bernie and Trump policy, there is plenty of similarity.

IMO, it is basically impossible to have discussion regarding Trump anymore on this site. I support his populist policies because I am basically a very moderate Republican and I become a hack or some other nasty name. Like supporting working class people while also wanting taxes cut and and to have a President who cares about Americans primarily is some insane idea. A NYC liberal, who was a life long Democrat, has become Hitler overnight. People want conflict with Russia because leaked emails show corruption and collusion in the Democrat party.

And the hyperbole is comical. 1984? Yeah, it is Trump which ushers in this new "1984" era, yet the Bush and Obama level state spying is nothing. People should actually try reading that book. The language police aren't the Republicans right now. This comical demonizing of the Russians is pretty 1984. If anything, electing Trump was the people breaking free of their conditioning.

I can understand someone supporting Sanders. I get someone voting for Hillary. I have friends who cried when Trump won. I can happily talk to them and see their side. Somehow on this site it has become standard practice to basically mock anyone who supports Trump and simply ignore pretty level headed arguments. Or ignore that any standard Republican would be doing exactly what Trump is doing.

So either someone is a Democrat and hates Republican policy or they are just a snobby Republican and prefer big business to normal people. But this righteous indignation is pretty lame and the level of discourse on this site has gone down the tubes.

Personally, I've been on this site for many fucking years. I've met some great people and have had some solid discussions on very important subjects that have changed my fundamental opinions on some things. I've railed against Obama and was never a fan of him. All that being said, these Trump discussions have utterly sucked the joy out of posting for me. It is just shocking the level of disdain for someone who wants jobs for normal Americans and to cut taxes.

Whatever. I'm done with this thread and done with checking it. Frankly, I remember when Patrick squashed the political conversations way back when and I remember thinking it was a shame. Retrospect, it is a wonderful policy and I wish it would come back. Nothing is gained from these threads.

Out.

Jan 26, 2017

SB'd. It's OKAY to have opinions. Liberal intolerance for opposing viewpoints is astounding

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Jan 26, 2017

+1 SB

Jan 26, 2017
TNA:

Partisan hack?

I've been Republican leaning for my whole life, but as I get older my stance on things have moved more towards the Democrats without the ridiculous taxation crap. I was miserable that Jeb was the anointed Republican and lamented that Clinton and Bush were the best we could get. It was a foregone conclusion that this was what we had.

Cruz is a fucking nut and wouldn't work with anyone. Bernie had the enthusiasm, but I cannot get behind someone giving out "free" college and jumping on every social issue bandwagon.

So you have Trump. A populist. 90% Republican, but pro labor and without the social issues.

It literally blows my mind that people have such an issue with Trump. It probably has similarities to people hating Obamacare, but supporting the ACA. The Trump name is the trigger.

Building the Wall - Border Security Act - Bush policyAnti Net Neutrality - Standard Republican PolicyDevos - Charter schools/vouchers - Standard Republican PolicyAnti TPP - Democrat Policy (Hillary was against it, all the liberal press hated it, labor hated it)Cutting Corporate Taxes - Standard Republican PolicyInfrastructure Spending - Republican/Democrat hybrid policy

If you draw a Venn diagram with Bernie and Trump policy, there is plenty of similarity.

IMO, it is basically impossible to have discussion regarding Trump anymore on this site. I support his populist policies because I am basically a very moderate Republican and I become a hack or some other nasty name. Like supporting working class people while also wanting taxes cut and and to have a President who cares about Americans primarily is some insane idea. A NYC liberal, who was a life long Democrat, has become Hitler overnight. People want conflict with Russia because leaked emails show corruption and collusion in the Democrat party.

And the hyperbole is comical. 1984? Yeah, it is Trump which ushers in this new "1984" era, yet the Bush and Obama level state spying is nothing. People should actually try reading that book. The language police aren't the Republicans right now. This comical demonizing of the Russians is pretty 1984. If anything, electing Trump was the people breaking free of their conditioning.

I can understand someone supporting Sanders. I get someone voting for Hillary. I have friends who cried when Trump won. I can happily talk to them and see their side. Somehow on this site it has become standard practice to basically mock anyone who supports Trump and simply ignore pretty level headed arguments. Or ignore that any standard Republican would be doing exactly what Trump is doing.

So either someone is a Democrat and hates Republican policy or they are just a snobby Republican and prefer big business to normal people. But this righteous indignation is pretty lame and the level of discourse on this site has gone down the tubes.

Personally, I've been on this site for many fucking years. I've met some great people and have had some solid discussions on very important subjects that have changed my fundamental opinions on some things. I've railed against Obama and was never a fan of him. All that being said, these Trump discussions have utterly sucked the joy out of posting for me. It is just shocking the level of disdain for someone who wants jobs for normal Americans and to cut taxes.

Whatever. I'm done with this thread and done with checking it. Frankly, I remember when Patrick squashed the political conversations way back when and I remember thinking it was a shame. Retrospect, it is a wonderful policy and I wish it would come back. Nothing is gained from these threads.

Out.

Dude, I get what you're saying but you don't really have a clear grasp on what exactly the cause is of people's distaste and intolerance for Trump. You're literally picking and choosing certain policies and words he said and trying to make the argument that "these are incredibly STANDARD operations, nothing new to see here" which I don't entirely understand how you'd dismiss 90% of everything else. Those policies alone, held by an upstanding and restrained individual, would not yield the same reaction in people that comes from Trump - to an extent, sure, but certainly toned down. Remind me again which of our former leaders exhibited these statements:

  • "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive." - Donald Trump
  • Insisting that the democratic election process that we have in this country was so rigged to the extent that 3 - 5 million illegal votes were case entirely to his opposition, "There are millions of votes...Of those votes cast, none of them come to me. None of them come to me. They would all be for the other side. None of them come to me." - Donald Trump
  • Telling the country not to trust "fake news" such as [major media outlets] that cast him in a negative light; not offering any alternative or going about it in a way that responsibly encourages the people to do their own research and arrive at the actual facts, because we all know the White House likes to push "alternative facts" of their own (but they have to, right?)
  • Telling the country the polls painting him unfavorably are all rigged and fake
  • Telling the country he had the largest standing ovation since Peyton Manning won the super bowl, everyone loves him
  • Encouraging a "muslim registry"
  • Recorded on camera saying he assaults women
  • Allowing the use of "alternative facts" in the White House which go against arguable, provable, direct facts that are apparent to anyone, yet he seemingly can't let it go for fear that his public image be impacted
  • Telling the country that he's going to release his tax returns during the campaign, then once he's elected says that the people "don't care", meanwhile Kellyanne Conway can't even keep up the tirade as she is going back on forth on the subject to this day; we still don't know where the leader of our country receives income from or where all of his foreign interests lie
  • Repealing the ACA, pitching a complete better alternative for which the country hasn't seen or heard about
  • He supposedly hasn't cut ties with all of his businesses, nor has he apparently relinquished full control as he said he would do, but even if he does, this is still unprecedented to not put his assets in a true blind trust
  • Rolling back women's, LGBTQ, foreign, essentially anyone who isn't white's rights
  • Twitter. That is all I have to say on that front.

This is all before the first fucking week in the White House. This is unprecedented. This is why people have an issue with Trump - Republicans and Democrats. If you want to policy pick and say "oh, well some of this shit has been proposed before" - that still doesn't mean that people haven't had issue with them previously. You are aware we are essentially in a two-party political system in the US; we can't pick and choose which pieces of a candidate we like and throw the rest out, we pick the one's who we can identify with "more" than the other candidate. Both parties still protest and have issue with each administration based on policies they enact and don't enact, and it's incredibly successful when there are peaceful movements that band together to show how important these values are to people, and in many situations have actually been successful in changing the course of legislation.

    • 4
Jan 26, 2017

On the one hand I largely support the political objectives of the new administration. I have to-- this is what people wanted, and they deserve to see it implemented and what its effects are.

On the other, I don't support their alternative facts. And we can't misunderestimate the comedic potential in this word.

    • 1
Jan 26, 2017
IlliniProgrammer:

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p>On the one hand I largely support the political objectives of the new administration. I have to-- this is what people wanted, and they deserve to see it implemented and what its effects are.

I dispute that line of thinking. At no point in 8 years did Republicans stop fighting Obama. They never showed him respect constantly challenged him and his legitimacy, and spewed vile hatred towards him the entire time. There is no reason why the left should show Trump any less disrespect than the right showed Obama. The Republicans never once rolled over.

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Jan 26, 2017

I dispute that line of thinking. At no point in 8 years did Republicans stop fighting Obama. They never showed him respect constantly challenged him and his legitimacy, and spewed vile hatred towards him the entire time.

There are a gazillion different viewpoints on this. I opposed ACA and thought it was a terrible idea, but I rooted for it to succeed.

I thought Trump was as bizarre as everyone else when he called Obama a Kenyan.

I didn't vote for him.

But I can root for him to succeed. And I can acknowledge that with control over the House, Senate, and WH, Republicans are allowed to make policy for the country within the bounds of the constitution.

There is no reason why the left should show Trump any less disrespect than the right showed Obama. The Republicans never once rolled over.

On the one hand, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, especially with Trump. You can be karma if you want. On the other hand, if you do it to Trump, Republicans will have license to do it right back to the next president. (I won't, but that's just me)

Ultimately you have to decide if you're going to be an adult like Schumer or Paul Ryan, or a kid like Trump or Maxine Waters. I personally think our government is ultimately going to mirror our behavior, and I'd prefer to be governed by adults.

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Jan 26, 2017

Alex Jones, conspiracy theorist, 9/11 and Sandy Hook truther was offered a White House press credential.

    • 1
Jan 26, 2017

Mexico's president just cancelled next week's meeting and the entire senior team at the State Dept just resigned en masse:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/...
That's good, right?

Jan 26, 2017

And that is inherently bad, right?

Jan 26, 2017

I'd say losing that kind of institutional knowledge is pretty bad, yeah.

Jan 26, 2017

"Mexico's president just cancelled next week's meeting"

Mexico's GDP is 6% of the US' - david playing hardball with goliath doesn't really rustle my jimmies.

"the entire senior team at the State Dept just resigned en masse"

To be clear, this is four people, is it not? Six including last weeks resignations.

GOP has been calling for Patrick Kennedy to resign since October:
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/GOP-Calls-Resigna...
Per the Hill, Trump's administration asked for their resignation and per the State Department's spokesman, this is typical in a transition.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/316283...
Maybe I am missing something with regard to the resignations, but based on the above, and given the gross differences in Trump's and Obama's foreign policy, this news does not seem that earth shattering.

Jan 26, 2017
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Jan 26, 2017

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