Analyst Attitude Toward New Associates
I'm a new associate and I have a question for all of you analysts out there.
Why the animosity toward new associates? Yes, we know less than you do about excel shortcuts and what folder to find certain files and just about generally everything about the job. But, what I say to you is to compare what I know on my first day to what you knew on your first day. Then compare what I know after 1 year to what you know after 1 year. Do this instead of comparing what you know after a full year and what I know on day 1.
In fact, I remember doing my summer stint last year and seeing a lot of you on your first day. I remember you screwing up the things we worked on together and keeping me late because you had no clue.
During training this summer I saw a lot of new analysts sleeping through training and through speakers, coming in late, not having a clue about really anything. So don't tell me that after 1 year of analyst work that you guys are all of a sudden masters of the universe and can throw around the attitude.
Just humor me here....why the attitude kids?
are you a post-mba associate? im curious bc I'm interviewing for summer associate spots now and know that some of my interviews will be with some of the analysts on the team - im kind of expecting these to be the worst bc of the attitude you're talking about...
Yes I am post MBA.
Keep in mind, even though I did not state this in the initial post, I am refering to a minority. However, it is so noticible that I wanted to ask about it.
Odds are you will not get these kids in your interview because most of them are very junior (as in just finishing their first year) and they are in the minority of all analysts.
Appreciate the quick response.. good to know its not widespread and sorry to hijack your thread. Curious to see what some of the minority have to say.
I was kind of surprised to be having analysts interview me too.. the recruiter said they picked a few analysts because they were undergrad alums from the school where I'm doing my mba. Should be interesting...
i would want my good analysts to make sure they like the guy who would be coming to the group next year.
no worries about the post... i'm hoping to get some feedback from the analysts on here who are not in that minority to see why those few have such awful attitudes when they are so unjustified.
I don't necessarily hold to this, but its probably because your an associate in banking. You probably didn't do banking out of undergrad, probably pretty old, and you come in without knowing jack-shit and the idea is this guy is a fucking joke. Most of the analysts at top BB's and elite botiques will be exiting for top buy-side jobs, and don't have much respect for people who couldn't make it in. Also, the attitude may be a function of a year of misery in banking. But, this is only from experience at a BB last summer and I got that impression from a lot of the analysts.
^^ Thats very true. Its also fairly typical for MBA's to pretty cocky as well, which a lot of analysts pass of as phony and unwarranted. Last summer we had a summer associate who thought he was the shit, out dressed everyone else everyday. One of the MD's tasked some of the analysts I was helping to field any questions from this guy & he would not listen at all. He was pretty smart (JD/MBA) but just a serious complex.
"Cowards die a thousand deaths, but the brave only one," Bill Shakespeare
Wingman - here is the issue.
1st and 2nd year analysts bust their ass often 90-120hrs a week. When a post-MBA associate is thrown on the team (with no prior IBD experience) this can actually INCREASE their workload because not only do they have to get everything done for the deal team, but often times the only thing the associate is good for (at first) is checking over the Powerpoint and coming up with bullets on an industry and/or creating more useless work.
In order to be appreciated by the analysts and have them work hard for you, you need to show a willingness to drop any superiority complex you have about an MBA (not a big deal at all -- I go to wharton and while some of the students are down to earth and great people, some also think they walk on water). Are you with a first year that needs some help and is overwhelmed? Stay late and help him/her out. Are you with a rock-star 2nd year that can run the deal by himself? Stay out of the way and try to help him/her out any way you can without creating more work.
So here are my tips to dealing with analysts that have an attitude:
Work your ass off to make their lives easier. can you help them with a model, profiles, bitch work, or anything else? If you show a willingness to do anything you will be seen as an asset, not a "i'm too good for that work" MBA douche
If there is a mistake, don't blame it on the analyst. It is your job to catch the analyst mistake, so take it like a man if you didnt catch something and the VP complains.
Try to establish a friendship with them. Go out for drinks, let them know that you appreciate their hard work and that you appreciate it when they teach you a new concept, etc.
A positive attitude and showing appreciation should be common sense -- but so many Associates I've seen see the analysts as their inferiors and make a HUGE mistake. Treat them as equals and they will make your life (and career prospects) much brighter.
Good Luck, Patrick
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That was great advice. Thanks.
And to the guys above... no i did not do banking before b-school because I was busy serving in the army overseas. Sorry I couldn't do any better with my resume.
If your familiar with the miniseries Band of Brothers, at the beginning Easy Company has two leaders: Captain Sobel & Lt. Winters. Sobel was an insufferable narcissist that only cared about his own career, an eventually turned out to be a complete putz. Winters on the other hand cared greatly for his soldiers and always lead by example. Think of what it takes to be a good officer in the Army & gain the respect of your men, I'm sure there's a lot of parallels. Additionally, your analysts being bitter about working for a year should be grateful they weren't in Fallujah or Bagdad getting sorts of shit shot at them (presumably) like you were.
"Cowards die a thousand deaths, but the brave only one," Bill Shakespeare
I think Patrick nailed it on the head. The worst thing an associate can do when they are new and don't know much about the deal processes is create additional bs work for the analyst. I think to gain the respect of the analysts, you should try to help in a way that reduces the workload for them, rather than adds to it. There's no need to go that extra mile when you don't know which direction to go in (which is the case for all starting associates).
It has to do with post-MBA associates not knowing jack sh!t about the job but acting like they are fast track to MD status.
Word of advice. Lose the unwarranted superiority complex and stop generating unnecessary, bullsh!t work.
direct hire associates are the biggest fucking jokes in the world. just little pussy ass bitches who couldn't make it in outta ug, so had to go the mba route. there's a hugely perceivable difference between a2a associates / associates that have completed an analyst stint versus those that have not... those w/o analyst experience are complete crap and will likely get laid off w/in 3 years.
compare where you will be in 2 years vs. where a rockstar analyst will be in 2 years... unemployment line vs kkr. that you are an associate at an ibank already proves that you're a failure, as most of these analysts who are coppin an attitude with you plan on peacing from banking anyway, and will leave your ass in the dust.
My associates (non-BB) are fantastic. They generally clue me in to what the MD/Director is thinking when they have me do something so it doesn't just feel like bitchwork (which, frankly, is our job to do given we're at the bottom of the banking ladder). They've been extremely generous when it came to my performance reviews, and do a lot of heavy lifting themselves on models etc. That said, their backgrounds are analyst promote, ex-Big 4 TAS and ex-VC to analyst promote. I think the problem in the BBs lies with most of the class being MBAs. But some analysts aren't very accommodating to the associates either. Remember that they have to move up for you to move up, if that makes sense.
what's the career path like for associates? how many years till they get a promotion?
haha. i cant believe people like you really exist. i would like to play with your blood.
^That's...creepy as hell.
That's what I was thinking.
I still can't figure out why an associate fresh out of b-school with zero relevant experience can start from Day 1 with higher pay and better work than an experienced analyst.
The only explanation(s) are that MBAs have more debt and that there is an unfounded preference for age/seniority, which is a relic of the past.
If an MBA is willing to learn from experienced analysts and be accountable to people below them, I have no gripes. But you learn more from working than you do in school, so I'm still at a loss to explain the premium given to an MBA v. actual experience. The antipathy analysts feel towards associates is derived from this ridiculous violation of meritocracy.
MBAs typically have much more actual experience than analysts. It may not be banking, but the majority of people going to top b-schools have developed 'soft' skills that analysts are just starting to work on. The kind of soft skills, that after further development can make the difference between a rainmaking MD and a VP with a rolodex smaller than b2's dick (no homo). A year or two of work has a serious impact on your attitude and maturity, the kind that just might justify "this ridiculous violation of meritocracy."
Plus, who in their right mind after working for 5 years in something legit enough to get into a top 10, and spending 120k+, foregoing 2 years of salary, would accept a job at 60/70k base? It makes no sense whatsoever.
The fact is that your typical BB analyst is very smart and driven, exactly what's needed for a job that requires 100 hour workweeks and some excel wizardry. The problem is, not all those kids are personable enough to go before clients. Just picture b2 as an MD. After he leaves meetings, you know clients will be laughing about how big of a douche he is, and there goes your bank's rep. A lot of MBAs are douches, but they know how to put on the MBA smile when it counts, and that's what banks are looking for.
Nice to see someone on here knows what they're talking about.
"put on the MBA smile?"...i guess this comes in handy where your trying to pick up a girl, but when you are on a $10 bn merger when will this verses experience with M&A, the industry, and finance come in handy? Yes you are right in all different professions you need to be a human and have the ability to talk (although, I don't think it ever helps to have an annoying/phony smile), it still doesn't take away from the fact that the MBA associates are less qualified than the undergraduate analysts. From the associates I worked with this summer, they ONLY seemed to have soft skills, and we're really only good at getting psyched up for firm-wide networking events... but the general consesus for the most part was that they were pretty useless, and there because they couldn't get into the buyside.I agree with the MBA smile analogy, if by that you mean they are as useless as used cars salesmen.
Soft skills? That's great. Just don't give me bullsh!t work in the process, because you have absolutely no idea what the fuck you are doing.
if all of these analysts are so damn awesome, then why are they not direct promoted to MD?
analysts have very very very narrow views of the world, when you kids get some experience you will see things differently. and when that buy side job calls for references after a while, guess who gets to tell them you're a shit head?
Also, associates may not have the narrow sphere of experience that you rockstar analysts do, but they've usually done pretty interesting jobs pre-MBA themselves and have a better eye for the big picture and how business works. In addition, it's a managerial track, so you can't really complain about having to be managed. Don't flatter yourselves; a good deal will get done regardless of your amazing model output etc. Your job is just to provide the MD with something concrete and pretty to show CEOs etc. what they generally already know (this coming from an analyst by the way).
I smoked a cigar on the roof of Saddam Hussein's palace today. I actually do that once a week. I flew backseat in an F-15 fighter jet. I mountain biked on Iwo Jima and flew over Mt. Fuji & Tokyo (and partied like a rock star that same night in Roppongi). I worked on some of the most advanced aerospace defense research Lockheed and Boing have to offer and was even privilaged enough to view the production line of the F-22 and sit in on meetings with the president of Lockheed Skunk Works. I had two friends die out here in Iraq. I work directly with a 2-star general. I have seen the poorest of poor people with no hope on the horizon, and worked in a local boy scout program to help develop initiatives for the local Iraqi children. I finally saw the glass bubble most American's live in with no idea of the chaos which is the outside world. I got a masters degree in engineering and took additional coursework in accounting and finance. I am about to get engaged to the woman I love, and who understands the sacrifices we are about to make with my career aspirations in finance. This was in the last three years.
I don't know excel shortcuts very well though. Do you guys think I might be able to pick that up in the next year or so? I really don't know if I will ever be able to figure that out...
Clearly, most MBAs don't have quite the life story Gecko has, but they have plenty of experience that will serve them well at some point in their career. Goldman's IBD division wasn't built on analyst's pitchbooks, but on the MDs who could "sell ice in the winter, fire in hell" to quote a famous New Yorker. Analysts may be better qualified at doing analyst work, but associates are better qualified at eventually doing the relationship management duties banking relies on. They happen to do at lot of the same things as analysts at first to get an understanding of the business from the ground up.
I'm not defending crappy associates btw. I'm just saying their existence and pay is rather justifiable. Patrick's advice should be mandatory reading for any MBA going to an IB.
x
As someone who was a direct promote and had to deal with plenty of MBAs, here is my view.
The problem with a large portion of MBA associates is their day 1 attitude. A day 1 analyst knows that they don't know anything, have to be taught everything and want to work at it. A day 1 MBA associate THINKS they know things. If you haven't been in banking previously, you don't know anything. So, when you walk in and you start saying, "well in my finance class they said we should do this," to a second year analyst who has spent the past year working a 100 hours a week doing that work, it's not going to go over well (whether you are right or wrong).
The MBA associate also thinks that those soft skills apply on day 1. They don't apply for awhile. That isn't to say that to become an MD you don't need the soft skills, you just don't need them till you understand pitching, modeling, the industry, due diligence, internal methodologies, etc.
If you come in, listen to the people who have been there, and don't be pretentious about the fact that I have all these great war stories, things will go much better.
Day 1 you don't know anything, learn from those who do, and in 6 months you will not only know more then the analysts who work for you, but you will also have a decent relationship with them and still have your "soft skills" ready for when they can be useful.
Well said.
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