Are we descending into a nation of fascism?

What are the comparisons between our country now and past regimes (i.e. Nazi Germany, Commie Cuba, Soviet Russia, etc)? It feels like every day we lose more freedom to be our own individuals. What are your thoughts?

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Comments (115)

Oct 6, 2021 - 1:01pm

I would say we are the opposite. Fascism tends to be where the government directs/controls corporations, but here it's the reverse: corporations write the laws and tell the government what to do. Pfizer currently has 22 lobby groups right now, and they are writing "Health" policy into law. I would say China is a fascist authoritarian state, USA is the opposite. 

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Oct 6, 2021 - 1:19pm

Bizkitgto

I would say we are the opposite. Fascism tends to be where the government directs/controls corporations, but here it's the reverse: corporations write the laws and tell the government what to do. Pfizer currently has 22 lobby groups right now, and they are writing "Health" policy into law. I would say China is a fascist authoritarian state, USA is the opposite. 

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini

I would personally call it Facism whether it's the government pushing outward to the corporations or the corporations pushing into the government. The end result is the same. Both need to be resisted as much as possible. 

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Controversial
Oct 6, 2021 - 1:32pm

100%. Trump's continued insistence that he won the election has completely remade the GOP political party operative identity. The recently released Eastman memo detailed how this was carefully orchestrated from the top.  
 

His voters will simply not accept the next Democratic victory, and I fully expect that the newly partisan election boards will refuse to certify future Dem winners. 
 

We also have a growing movement from the christofascist "Religious" right to reintroduce God into public schools and ban teachings of the civil rights era and diversity. 
 

Oh, you were talking about wearing a piece of cloth on your face and having the opportunity to take a potentially life saving vaccine (the same kind of medicinal miracle is the reason you don't live out the rest of your years in an iron lung with polio)

Grow up. 
 

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."

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Oct 6, 2021 - 2:12pm

Ok I apologize for inferring. What are these personal freedoms you're referring to?

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."

Oct 6, 2021 - 2:54pm

His voters will simply not accept the next Democratic victory, and I fully expect that the newly partisan election boards will refuse to certify future Dem winners.

Larry Elder already conceded, and in the next big ticket race coming up (the VA governor election) Youngkin has already stated that the 2020 election was "certifiably fair". Your take is outdated already. 

We also have a growing movement from the christofascist "Religious" right to reintroduce God into public schools 

You mean create religious schools as part of school choice that parents actually want? If 60% of the parents (who mind you are paying with their tax dollars) want a religious public school alongside a secular public school as part of school choice, why is that wrong?

and ban teachings of the civil rights era

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magaz…

While recognizing the evolving and malleable nature of CRT, scholar Khiara Bridges outlines a few key tenets of CRT, including:

  • Recognition that race is not biologically real but is socially constructed and socially significant. It recognizes that science (as demonstrated in the Human Genome Project) refutes the idea of biological racial differences. According to scholars Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic, race is the product of social thought and is not connected to biological reality.
  • Acknowledgement that racism is a normal feature of society and is embedded within systems and institutions, like the legal system, that replicate racial inequality. This dismisses the idea that racist incidents are aberrations but instead are manifestations of structural and systemic racism.
  • Rejection of popular understandings about racism, such as arguments that confine racism to a few "bad apples." CRT recognizes that racism is codified in law, embedded in structures, and woven into public policy. CRT rejects claims of meritocracy or "colorblindness." CRT recognizes that it is the systemic nature of racism that bears primary responsibility for reproducing racial inequality.
  • Recognition of the relevance of people's everyday lives to scholarship. This includes embracing the lived experiences of people of color, including those preserved through storytelling, and rejecting deficit-informed research that excludes the epistemologies of people of color.

I don't see anything about MLK or Rosa Parks in here. For the record that is US History 101 and isn't going anywhere

and diversity 

What does this even mean? I don't even know what you mean by teaching "diversity". I do think we should get back to increasing our worldwide math and science rankings (which suck), as well as literacy rate instead of focusing on microagressions.

having the opportunity to take a potentially life saving vaccine 

I mean this is flat out incorrect. Nobody is upset about the opportunity to take a vaccine, it's about the vaccine being mandated. 

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Oct 6, 2021 - 3:08pm

IncomingIBDreject

You mean create religious schools as part of school choice that parents actually want? If 60% of the parents (who mind you are paying with their tax dollars) want a religious public school alongside a secular public school as part of school choice, why is that wrong?

Well, if the underlying argument here is "the Constitution is a living document and can be amended any way we want, assuming we go through the legal processes," then I agree, no problem with gutting the First Amendment and funding religious institutions.

Anything short of that, of course, is "un"Constitutional and thus, we should have a massive problem with it.

I don't see anything about MLK or Rosa Parks in here. For the record that is US History 101 and isn't going anywhere

Yes, but the history of Civil Rights doesn't begin and end with MLK and Rosa Parks.  I think the point is that focusing on these uplifting stories of people who managed to shine a spotlight on oppression and change history through nonviolent means, to the exclusion of also teaching about the violent and systemic bigotry against which they protested, is in fact a form of whitewashing history.  How are we to teach future citizens to recognize the specter of oppression and tyranny without educating them on what that looks like?  Yes, it's unpleasant for some white Alabama schoolteacher to see their grandparents hosing down protestors at a sit in, or for local folks in Birmingham to remember all those times their ancestors lynched someone for looking wrong at a white woman... but as great of people as MLK or Rosa Parks were, my strong guess is that they themselves would have said they'd rather have been obscure nobodys who didn't have to fight against lynchings and beatings and bigotry.  Emulating great people is all well and good, but not everyone has it in them to be MLK.  Everyone has it in them to learn that hating others because of the amount of pigment in their skin is evil.

What does this even mean? I don't even know what you mean by teaching "diversity". I do think we should get back to increasing our worldwide math and science rankings (which suck), as well as literacy rate instead of focusing on microagressions.

I also don't know what it means to "teach" diversity, unless it means to teach in such a way to touch on diverse subjects (African and pre-Colombian history, for example, are given short shrift in public schooling).  But I think we can teach math effectively and focus on microaggressions.  Nothing in math requires you to be a bigot or a chauvinist.

I mean this is flat out incorrect. Nobody is upset about the opportunity to take a vaccine, it's about the vaccine being mandated. 

The vaccine isn't being mandated, though.  There is not one person in this country who is having a needle jabbed in their arm without their consent (with the possible exception of minors).  So perhaps you want to try again?

Oct 7, 2021 - 8:23am

IncomingIBDreject

His voters will simply not accept the next Democratic victory, and I fully expect that the newly partisan election boards will refuse to certify future Dem winners.

Larry Elder already conceded, and in the next big ticket race coming up (the VA governor election) Youngkin has already stated that the 2020 election was "certifiably fair". Your take is outdated already. 

Larry Elder said the day before the election that "They're gonna cheat. We know that...there might very well be shenanigans" and only backed off his fraud claims when he got stomped by 30 points in the bluest state in the nation. Trump's campaign just two days ago(!) released a memo endorsing Youngkin's claims that "we need to audit the voting machines" (hint: they already do) and Youngkin refused for months to say if he would have certified Biden's win. The Maricopa County (AZ) Republican-led hack audit actually INCREASED Biden's win total, but that didn't slow down the fraud claims, because their feelings don't care about the facts.

I think right-leaning voters are in deep denial about how deep that Trump's false claims about election fraud have permeated the party, and I fully expect we will see another version of 1/6 and a Constitutional crisis when at least one state refuses to certify the next Dem winner. I greatly hope I'm wrong.

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."

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Oct 6, 2021 - 3:44pm

If you are trying to compare those that falsely say Russia changed vote totals, then I'd agree with you. However, The Republican-chaired, bi-partisan Senate intelligence report confirmed that Russia interfered with the 2016 election. Meanwhile, a plurality of Republicans believe the Big Lie.

I can't believe we're still ligating this, but the whataboutism is the only thing keeping the GOP alive at this point.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/21/senate-intel-report-confirms-r…

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."

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Oct 7, 2021 - 12:26am

Alt-Ctr-Left

100%. Trump's continued insistence that he won the election has completely remade the GOP political party operative identity. The recently released Eastman memo detailed how this was carefully orchestrated from the top.  
 

His voters will simply not accept the next Democratic victory, and I fully expect that the newly partisan election boards will refuse to certify future Dem winners. 
 

We also have a growing movement from the christofascist "Religious" right to reintroduce God into public schools and ban teachings of the civil rights era and diversity. 
 

Oh, you were talking about wearing a piece of cloth on your face and having the opportunity to take a potentially life saving vaccine (the same kind of medicinal miracle is the reason you don't live out the rest of your years in an iron lung with polio)

Grow up. 

Do you feel better now?

Most Helpful
Oct 6, 2021 - 1:46pm

Yes. The cancellation of any individuals or entities that do not conform to the populist narrative on mandatory vaccinations is unprecedented in US history. Moreover, this country is slowly but quite surely deteriorating into a 1984-like dystopia. For example, if you don't conform to any of the mainstream progressive narratives of the day, or don't comply with what is deemed "proper" behavior and views, you are canceled. You can lose your career in an instant and be broadly vilified among millions of people, without the voice or platform to present an empowered counterargument. Effectively, we live in a propaganda state. I'm 34 years old; I wouldn't be surprised if there's another civil war or secession attempt by the time retire.

Oct 6, 2021 - 2:25pm

It's not unprecedented.  I had to get vaccinated to go to school.  Our soldiers have to get vaccinated to serve.  That has been on the board forever, and the Supreme court ruled in favor of vaccine mandates multiple times.  Hell, even George Washington required smallpox inncolulations to serve!

Oct 6, 2021 - 2:29pm

I have no plans to go down a rabbit hole argument chain on WSO, but it should be clear to anyone with any shred of common sense that smallpox with a 30% mortality rate is not at all comparable to COVID-19 with a >99% general population survival rate, which is likely much higher among the non-elderly and healthy population. 

Oct 6, 2021 - 3:00pm

Dude I'm going to be amazed if you get a return offer if this is truly your level of thinking. You keep repeating dead beat points without any regard for analysis or facts that people have shown to counter your points.

We just talked about the how exceptions in previous mandates were broader in nature compared to the COVID-19 one and now here again you decide to post the same thing that was already debunked. You're thinking that you're owning conservatives, but in reality you're making a fool of yourself. So bad in fact that even the prominent liberals on this website do not attempt to piggy back off your arguments and generally try not to associate with you. 

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Oct 6, 2021 - 3:50pm

iggs99988

Yes. The cancellation of any individuals or entities that do not conform to the populist narrative on mandatory vaccinations is unprecedented in US history. Moreover, this country is slowly but quite surely deteriorating into a 1984-like dystopia. For example, if you don't conform to any of the mainstream progressive narratives of the day, or don't comply with what is deemed "proper" behavior and views, you are canceled. You can lose your career in an instant and be broadly vilified among millions of people, without the voice or platform to present an empowered counterargument. Effectively, we live in a propaganda state. I'm 34 years old; I wouldn't be surprised if there's another civil war or secession attempt by the time retire.

Waah!  I can't be a bigoted piece of shit without losing my job!  The world is so horrible and cruel!

You have a right to free speech.  Nowhere and at no point has any (white) person been denied that right.  What you don't have is a right to speech without consequence.  Don't want to get fired?  Don't be a bigot.  Want to be a bigot?  Go work for one of the many companies run by out and out white supremacists!  Wait, can't find one?  Maybe, instead of assuming that the world is out to get you, ditch the victim complex and reassess your own beliefs, and why others find them objectionable.

Oct 7, 2021 - 8:23am

You have a right to free speech.  Nowhere and at no point has any (white) person been denied that right.  What you don't have is a right to speech without consequence.

I don't understand this argument at all. It seems like something a North Korean dictator could argue. "Sure you can criticize me, but if you do you must suffer the consequences... off with your head!" 

Array

Oct 6, 2021 - 2:17pm

If we actually were, most people here wouldn't really recognize it. 

Ironically the closest the US ever was to "fascism" was during FDR's administration. The New Deal was very much in line with national socialist economics and the FDR's consolidation of power is in line with fascist conceptions of the state.

Contrary to popular conception, fascism is not when Republicans hurt people's feelings.

"Work ethic, work ethic" - Vince Vaughn

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Oct 6, 2021 - 2:24pm

Yes, but FDR wasn't constantly demonizing others in order to gain or hold on to power.  He did have extremely racist people in his coalition but he merely tolerated them.  Black workers threatened a march on Washington unless they were allowed to work in the defense industry in WW2, and FDR ended up desegregating it and banning discrimination in government contractors.

Oct 6, 2021 - 2:56pm

FDR directed the press to demonize candidates as anti-American, set up the predecessor to the House of un-American Activities to spy on people for disloyalty, put people in concentration camps, and tried to implement a one-party state.

"Work ethic, work ethic" - Vince Vaughn

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Oct 6, 2021 - 3:04pm

To add on to Yankee Doodle's point below, FDR tried to pack the courts after the SC opposed some legislation he was able to get through to Congress. Luckily, Congress got their act together and stopped him from what would have been effective control of all 3 branches of govt. People were so worried about the power FDR managed to consolidate that after his death the 2 term rule was put in place to avoid potential dictatorships. Up to that point the 2 term maximum had been a custom due to the fact Washington had served 2 terms but it had not been codified into law. 

Array

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Oct 6, 2021 - 3:10pm

No, we aren't descending into fascism.  People don't really understand what that word means.  You can make a strong argument that we're slowly transforming into a plutocracy, or perhaps have been all along, and that the American right wing is adding in a violent and destabilizing mix of theocratic nationalism.  But not fascism.

Oct 6, 2021 - 3:28pm

trustmeimanengineer

The right is not adding in a violent and destabilizing mix of theocratic nationalism. It is not violent to be nationalist or religious.

Again, if this is the best you can do, the sit down and let the adults talk.

No one said that being a nationalist or religious means you're a violent person.  What I said was that the right is adding in a violent and destabilizing mix of theocratic nationalism.  Do you not understand adjectives?  Half the problem with this country is that illiterate children like you think you're smarter than you are.  This is the kind of comment one should expect from someone who thinks 30 minutes of Googling is "doing the research" on vaccine safety.  Not all opinions are created equal, and certainly your opinion isn't equal to fact.

Look, if English is your second language, then congrats on getting this far and keep up the good work.  But don't opine if you don't fully understand grammar, syntax, and sentence structure.

Oct 6, 2021 - 3:51pm

I thought liberals believing the US was just on the cusp of becoming a Christian theocracy was a meme from the 90s. Apparently they still believe it. Every day the US moves in the opposition direction. Trump threatened to go to war with Botswana over gay rights and our embassies fly the rainbow flag. Every major corporation in America participates in pride month and our intelligence agencies fund Islamic terrorists and Zionists in the Middle East who murder Christians. Church attendance continues to decline across the board and the fastest growing religions in the US are non-Christian.

Theocratic Christians my ass.

The only way we'd become a Christian theocracy in the next 150 years is if we were to complete halt immigration. If that were to happen, the natural birth rates of the Mormon and Amish populations (and basically zero birthrates for everyone else) would cause them to become a majority of the country by the 2130s. A man can dream.

"Work ethic, work ethic" - Vince Vaughn

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Oct 6, 2021 - 4:22pm

Yankee Doodle

I thought liberals believing the US was just on the cusp of becoming a Christian theocracy was a meme from the 90s. Apparently they still believe it. Every day the US moves in the opposition direction.

Unless you live in Texas, where your neighbors can report you to the police for having an abortion.  Unless you live in Alabama, where some judges have been notoriously reticent to put their signatures on marriage licenses for gay couples.

The US remains secular because liberals stand watch over civil rights.

Trump threatened to go to war with Botswana over gay rights and our embassies fly the rainbow flag. Every major corporation in America participates in pride month and our intelligence agencies fund Islamic terrorists and Zionists in the Middle East who murder Christians. Church attendance continues to decline across the board and the fastest growing religions in the US are non-Christian.

And yet, pastors continue to enjoy a tax exempt pulpit from which to push religiously inspired politics to their congregations.  The fact that Americans are less religious has no bearing on the fact that the Republican Party is little more than a mish-mash of evangelical Christian "morals" joined with pro-business tax cutting wealthy folks.  

Again, your argument that the country is becoming less religious is irrelevant.  The country is becoming less and less Republican, too.... and yet we see Mr McConnell and his ilk maintaining a tyranny of the minority nonetheless.

Theocratic Christians my ass.

The only way we'd become a Christian theocracy in the next 150 years is if we were to complete halt immigration. If that were to happen, the natural birth rates of the Mormon and Amish populations (and basically zero birthrates for everyone else) would cause them to become a majority of the country by the 2130s. A man can dream.

Most immigrants are highly religious.  One of the great paradoxes of the innate bigotry of American conservatism, and it's reliance on former Dixiecrats, is that the fastest growing populations in America align far more with Republican "values", but are constantly vilified by the dwindling core GOP constituency to such a degree that they vote Democrat.

Oct 6, 2021 - 4:50pm

Bizkitgto

>and that the American right wing is adding in a violent and destabilizing mix of theocratic nationalism

Who were the violent rioters burning down buildings, causing billions in damage, resulting in hundreds of casualties for most of 2020?

They weren't right wingers... who were they?

Well, there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that a large number of them were right wingers.

That being said, lets recall what those people were protesting.  The fact that the police have free reign to murder citizens, predominantly people of color, without fear of consequence.  When you can be murdered for allegedly passing a fake $20, what other recourse is there?  It's an unobjectionable fact that the justice system discriminates against people of color.  So... the police are out to get you, and the other parts of the justice system will mistreat you as well.  What other choice do you have but to protest?

Motive matters.  Protesting an unjust police regime is a commendable motive.  Attempting a putsch because you don't like the outcome of a free and fair election isn't.  I understand that a Republican voter can't understand that distinction, or they wouldn't compare a violent coup with a violent civil rights protest, but that sums up the difference between conservatives and liberals right there.

Oct 6, 2021 - 4:31pm

As this thread indicates, both sides think the other side is authoritarian. The truth is, both sides are authoritarian. The question is, which authority is good and bad. It will eventually be settled on the field of battle. That's inevitable. 

Array

Oct 6, 2021 - 4:40pm

trustmeimanengineer

Well, one side is for small government while the other wants the government to invade your freedoms. If you can't tell who is doing what... oof

I'm sympathetic to your position (obviously), but the political right were as obnoxious as the political left is today when the right controlled the institutions of power. If and when the political right re-takes power we will be authoritarians. The reality is, whoever controls the institutions will use their power to try to consolidate their power and/or to continue their philosophy to its end logic. As a conservative, I like to believe that we have good and righteous values that should be imposed from the top, but I'm reminded that it was the pieces of sh*t hippies in the 1960s fighting for the right to speak freely.

I'm just saying that we all need to acknowledge that, ultimately, those not in power will use free speech and democracy to argue for broadly liberal values--until they take control of the institutions of power.  

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Oct 6, 2021 - 4:32pm

OP says we are losing freedoms but did not mention a single freedom we have lost.  From what I can tell, the USA has more freedom than most of the countries on this planet.  

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Oct 6, 2021 - 4:59pm

Restrictions of freedom won't originate from the state, they will originate from your fellow citizens / private or semi-private institutions and may be codified by the state later on. 

There was a mid level PE guy on here yesterday wondering if he should fire his employee because he supported a former President of the country they both live in.
 

Corporations and universities employ political commissars that enforce political ideology on their employees and students. 

Why would someone need to spend the time and effort to win elections and then navigate laws and courts to punish their political enemies when they can just punish someone to the point of ruining their lives while they're at school or work? 
 

This is what restrictions of freedom will look like going forward. State action won't operate so openly because they don't need to and it would likely create an organized backlash that could use legal means to significantly curtail its influence. In the meantime we get shit like DA's in Chicago refusing to enforce laws (see the most recent shootout on the west side) to avoid having to prosecute black men for their crimes. This is not codified per se right now but could in the future. 
 

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Oct 6, 2021 - 6:25pm

Exactly. We're seeing corporations turning into a distribution channel for policy (America is one giant corporation after all, so it's perfectly on brand). As you said, no need to go after people individually through the judicial system when you can just slip a check (comprised of taxpayer money of course) to the CEO of a 50,000 person company to put a mandate in place and you now control the livelihood of each of those individuals.

Oct 6, 2021 - 10:33pm

Yes, it can be big intrusions or small intrusions. My company makes us take DEI training, and while it isn't very radical by some standards, they do require you to say things many of us don't believe (like, they'll ask a question about "Christian privilege" and won't let you proceed until you've answered the question "correctly.").

Being forced to tell lies (or to tell what we believe are lies) to remain employed is a small but real--and dystopian--intrusion on personal freedom. The gov't has simply delegated to major corporations that which it can't legally mandate. 

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Oct 7, 2021 - 8:23am

freedoms I've lost permanently in my life

cigarette buying age changed from 18 to 21

seatbelt laws

ease of walking through airport without having to remove shoes, in principle I disagree with TSA bc I doubt its effectiveness, but practically speaking it's no biggie

that's pretty much it. I agree with the fear about losing freedoms and that we should protect permanent freedoms, but in reality, not much in the way of freedoms have been lost permanently in the last 20+ years. if I'm mistaken, I'll gladly walk back my comments

Oct 7, 2021 - 8:23am

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