How has MeToo changed your willingness to mentor female team members?

m_1's picture
Rank: Senior Neanderthal | 4,724

Just curious if it's changed anything for anyone else?

Not going to lie, it's made me very paranoid, I don't meet anyone (male or female) at all unless it's in a public place and I had cameras installed with audio at our main office.

I talked to a few executives at larger companies about this and some outright refuse to meet 1 on 1 privately with woman, which I think is really bad. Kind of sad the whole thing has created some serious glass ceilings for woman.

What do you guys think a feasible solution is? The only thing I could think of within reason was meeting in public places exclusively + the whole camera/audio thing but it's a band-aid solution.

Comments (151)

Dec 4, 2018

The irony of this whole thing is that it has made people crave being monitored all the time. It is amazing.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Dec 12, 2018

Yeah it's really scary...

Dec 4, 2018

Wasn't this a terrible WSJ or Bloomberg article yesterday?

Solution is it's fucking business, don't be a creep, don't try to date anyone in the office, don't try to fuck anyone in the office, do your work, and you're straight.

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Dec 4, 2018
dr_mantistoboggan_MD:

Wasn't this a terrible WSJ or Bloomberg article yesterday?

Solution is it's fucking business, don't be a creep, don't try to date anyone in the office, don't try to fuck anyone in the office, do your work, and you're straight.

Your solution is 100% correct, but I did think it was an interesting article. Batshit, mind you, but interesting.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-03... for anyone wondering

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Dec 10, 2018

His solution is batshit. There are a lot of office romances that lead to marriage, off the top of my head is my best friend and my parents. My uncle and aunt are high-school sweethearts. I think this is a perfectly acceptable way to meet women, and frankly the only way many american men have. It is far more pervy to strike up a conversation at a bar or gym in my own opinion.

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Dec 9, 2018
dr_mantistoboggan_MD:

Wasn't this a terrible WSJ or Bloomberg article yesterday?

Solution is it's fucking business, don't be a creep, don't try to date anyone in the office, don't try to fuck anyone in the office, do your work, and you're straight.

No no no. You're not. There is always some crazy out there who can ruin your life. CC Deborah Ramirez.

I'm gay and I'm still terrified.

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Dec 9, 2018

Right?

It's the same logic as "don't leave your beer unattended at the bar" - the risk of your drink being spiked is low, but the consequences could be catastrophic.

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Jan 20, 2019

If you're not socially clueless you should be able to read the cues and understand the difference between light flirtation in a working relationship and trying to fuck a coworker that's clearly not comfortable with it or is liable to get you into trouble. I really don't think reading the cues and staying out of trouble is difficult. Just don't make people feel uncomfortable, unless you have Aspergers you shouldn't be playing dumb about not being able to read the situation. Kind of ridiculous that a bunch of adults are having this problem with one another.

Just my $.02

Jan 22, 2019

Generally yes, and also cultivate a good reputation so if someone tries to make something up you get a bunch of folks all "oh no no no, this isn't consistent at all with his behavior". Head off any unwarranted metoo lynchings by proactively courting the same court of public opinion. Put the burden of proof on them in every way, not just legally but also socially.

In a world of open office spaces, glass doors, and public coffee chats....it's not hard

Most Helpful
Dec 4, 2018

It's a slippery slope.

A number of recent articles talk about these measures of avoiding potential conflict, like not traveling on business with female co-workers, not getting hotel rooms on the same floor when traveling overnight. Some firms are scaling back or getting rid of certain staffer outings, which is disappointing.

And yes, there was a piece on Bloomberg News yesterday talking about "channeling Mike Pence" by not even dining alone with a woman in a public setting?! And Ron Biscardi CEO of Context Capital Partners has cancelled the after-party that he hosts after CCP's annual conference to avoid possible issues.

My concern is that by men trying to insulate and protect themselves from possible sexual harassment claims is that they inadvertently paint themselves in a corner that then puts them at risk of sexual discrimination complaints.

The vast majority of businessmen or any men in positions of power and decision-making are decent guys and they don't harass women. Just as the vast majority of businesswomen simply want to earn their positions and promotions via merit and effort. Sadly, it's the opportunists in each camp, while small in comparison, that end up being in the news cycle and making things appear far more skewed than they probably are.

Does harassment and coercement exist? Absolutely. Should it limit and color every single interaction between the sexes, or between boss and subordinate? Good god, I hope not, but it can certainly seem that way and I really hope it doesn't negatively impact the mentor role - as a woman in banking and finance, I have always had to contend with far fewer bosses and directors who were women, because the upper ranks have so few women to begin with, and so I've had very few female mentors and I have more often than not had no choice but to try to cultivate and benefit from mentor relationships with men.

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Dec 4, 2018

+1

Don't be weird as a man, disingenuous as a woman, and everything should be fine. Just be normal people...

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Dec 5, 2018
FinancelsWacc:

+1
Don't be weird as a man, disingenuous as a woman, and everything should be fine. Just be normal people...

The problem here is there is virtually no consequence for being disingenuous as a woman.
The bad seeds in the women's camp are protected beyond what's reasonable.

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Dec 4, 2018
InfoDominatrix:

My concern is that by men trying to insulate and protect themselves from possible sexual harassment claims is that they inadvertently paint themselves in a corner that then puts them at risk of sexual discrimination complaints.

This.

I haven't changed one thing and don't plan to. If you start stonewalling women from drinks or one on one meetings, you will be accused of sexual discrimination because that is exactly what you're doing.

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Dec 9, 2018
InfoDominatrix:

It's a slippery slope.

A number of recent articles talk about these measures of avoiding potential conflict, like not traveling on business with female co-workers, not getting hotel rooms on the same floor when traveling overnight. Some firms are scaling back or getting rid of certain staffer outings, which is disappointing.

And yes, there was a piece on Bloomberg News yesterday talking about "channeling Mike Pence" by not even dining alone with a woman in a public setting?! And Ron Biscardi CEO of Context Capital Partners has cancelled the after-party that he hosts after CCP's annual conference to avoid possible issues.

My concern is that by men trying to insulate and protect themselves from possible sexual harassment claims is that they inadvertently paint themselves in a corner that then puts them at risk of sexual discrimination complaints.

The vast majority of businessmen or any men in positions of power and decision-making are decent guys and they don't harass women. Just as the vast majority of businesswomen simply want to earn their positions and promotions via merit and effort. Sadly, it's the opportunists in each camp, while small in comparison, that end up being in the news cycle and making things appear far more skewed than they probably are.

Does harassment and coercement exist? Absolutely. Should it limit and color every single interaction between the sexes, or between boss and subordinate? Good god, I hope not, but it can certainly seem that way and I really hope it doesn't negatively impact the mentor role - as a woman in banking and finance, I have always had to contend with far fewer bosses and directors who were women, because the upper ranks have so few women to begin with, and so I've had very few female mentors and I have more often than not had no choice but to try to cultivate and benefit from mentor relationships with men.

There's a tug of war between women's rights and feminism. Women have a right to not be or feel coerced for sex. But do they also have a right to be treated the same way as a male coworker in a hotel with a straight guy at 11 PM at night?

I think for the people running around saying "just don't be a creep", that's bullshit. There are business situations that make men feel uncomfortable being around a woman where they wouldn't feel the same about being around a guy. And then the gay guys like me feel uncomfortable around everybody in these situations, and we've learned to work around them. I might do lunch or coffee alone with a coworker-- either male or female, but not dinner (unless it was an LGBT woman). Why can't women be ok with the same?

I have a better idea for all of the feminists out there saying "just don't be a creep". How about you stop being creeps? I don't want to have a business dinner alone with you, or with a guy (lunch might be ok). I don't want to be in your hotel room-- male or female-- alone while I'm on business (perhaps unless you're lesbian and you know I'm gay). These are some very traditional lines that you try not to cross with the opposite sex, and I think it's patently unfair to demand they be broken down and then later claim that breaking them down and getting yourself into a situation made you feel uncomfortable.

Women, as whole, need to decide whether it's ok for them to be uncomfortable and occasionally feel harassed, or whether it's ok for there to be some reasonable, traditional barriers between men and women in the workplace, especially in the manager-employee context-- that gay guys like me also have to work around, not just with the opposite sex but with practically everyone.

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Dec 9, 2018

Very nuanced points here. +1

I've taken the Mike Pence approach and it got me in trouble. Was accused of discrimination. It's a very fine line.

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Dec 9, 2018
InfoDominatrix:

My concern is that by men trying to insulate and protect themselves from possible sexual harassment claims is that they inadvertently paint themselves in a corner that then puts them at risk of sexual discrimination complaints.

I have more often than not had no choice but to try to cultivate and benefit from mentor relationships with men.

Rock and a hard place, no?

When does coaching become "mansplaining?" Where is the line between mentorship and misconduct?

Dec 4, 2018

No.

Dec 4, 2018

I'm an adjunct instructor and no longer allow female students in my office during office hours; we sit in the corner of the student lounge area. The last thing I need is to get into a riff with made up allegations by a lazy female student trying to save her grade.

The dean of our school has a hard on for ending harassment. A rumor began that a professor told a sexist woman joke during a study hall which eventually hit the ear of someone on the campus senate. Before the facts even arose, the dean tweeted that the professor who told the joke will be fired. The tweet was then redacted when it was discovered that a student told the joke, not the professor.

Can't trust anyone these days and the internet is electric ink. Even false allegations will never wash away when google indexes everything forever.

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Dec 4, 2018

@InfoDominatrix great post above.

Agree with a lot of what has been posted. Unfortunately, don't be a creep just doesn't work in large or small offices. I've consistently seen in my career that organizations that have a lot of bright, high-achievers also tend to have a lot of quirkiness (deviation from the norm), which normally manifest in harmless, funny mannerisms, but can also generate in less-good ways (not necessarily illegal or immoral, but unhealthy, off-putting, etc.).

In an ironic anecdote in my office recently, in the past year we built out additional floor-space in our building. A completely private room with the wall on the hallway built out of floor to ceiling glass that was 100% glossed out was built with an initial intention of being a place for naps and nursing women (this was 100% part of the intention); this would require a locking door of course. After the lock was installed and one of our managing partners checked it out, he had our office manager have a non-locking door-knob installed specifically to avoid the chance someone could ever be taken advantage. So I guess now it is officially only a nap room or extra conference room. This is a small point to make, but was super interesting to see this become a point of concern... something like this never would have happened in the first few years out of school.

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Dec 4, 2018

To all the people who are saying (in what I read hearing a SF beta male's voice) 'yeah, like all you have to do is like be cool and you should be fine'... remember the words from Tupac:

"It's a lot of real G's doing time
'Cause a groupy bit the truth and told a lie"

Women lie too... and in today's climate there is no due process or presumption of innocence. One complaint and you're canned. Rather be safe than sorry in this instance.

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Dec 4, 2018

Couldn't agree more

Dec 4, 2018

Love the pac reference.

Dayman?

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Dec 4, 2018

The Bloomberg article mentions male higher-ups keep their distance from female junior employees because "a false accusation is what they fear".

This will all disappear as soon as the accused enjoy due process and the presumption of innocence, and the validity of sexual assault accusations ceases to be decided by the court of public opinion.

Too many companies would sooner fire a male employee and avoid potential fallout than ask the hard questions about the validity of the accusation.

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Dec 4, 2018

It's pretty interesting that there's this assumption that it is common that if you get one complaint you get canned. In fact, that is the least common outcome.

Have any of you even talked to women who have been sexually harassed at work? For the most part, those who do report harassment are stonewalled by HR or are made to jump through a thousand hoops. Harassment reporting policies are, for the most part, a facade that are obviously controlled by those in charge. They are designed to legally protect management and shareholders, Someone getting fired is usually the very last resort. Most women don't see it as worth it to report harassment because corporate harassment policies are not implemented to protect those who are harassed. They serve as legal cover and nothing more. Almost exclusively, only men who engage in the worst kind of behavior get punished.

Anecdotally, men who seem to be the most paranoid about #MeToo tend to be those who have few to 0 platonic female friends. All of the men I know who have a plethora of female friends who they hang out with are not worried about this shit. Only men who exclusively hang out with other men or their significant other are freaking out.

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Dec 4, 2018
DeepLearning:

It's pretty interesting that there's this assumption that it is common that if you get one complaint you get canned. In fact, that is the least common outcome.

Have any of you even talked to women who have been sexually harassed at work? For the most part, those who do report harassment are stonewalled by HR or are made to jump through a thousand hoops. Harassment reporting policies are, for the most part, a facade that are obviously controlled by those in charge. They are designed to legally protect management and shareholders, Someone getting fired is usually the very last resort. Most women don't see it as worth it to report harassment because corporate harassment policies are not implemented to protect those who are harassed. They serve as legal cover and nothing more. Almost exclusively, only men who engage in the worst kind of behavior get punished.

Anecdotally, men who seem to be the most paranoid about #MeToo tend to be those who have few to 0 platonic female friends. All of the men I know who have a plethora of female friends who they hang out with are not worried about this shit. Only men who exclusively hang out with other men or their significant other are freaking out.

A million times this. Think about the people who often do get canned. They tend to be creeps.

If you have a reputation for making inappropriate jokes, leering at women in the office, and in general behaving in an unprofessional manner, you're making yourself a target of that one in a million false accusation.

If you treat your colleagues and employees with respect and professionalism, you won't get in trouble, end of story.

These conversations always remind me of episode of the The Office where Michael complains that office censorship is preventing him from sending "hilarious" spam forwards and shit like that. The people who get into trouble and then bitch about how "it was just a joke!" deserve every ounce of punishment they get, and frankly, it's always amazing to me how many people on WSO (generally they seem to be younger folks) don't get that.

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Dec 4, 2018
Ozymandia:
DeepLearning:

It's pretty interesting that there's this assumption that it is common that if you get one complaint you get canned. In fact, that is the least common outcome.

Have any of you even talked to women who have been sexually harassed at work? For the most part, those who do report harassment are stonewalled by HR or are made to jump through a thousand hoops. Harassment reporting policies are, for the most part, a facade that are obviously controlled by those in charge. They are designed to legally protect management and shareholders, Someone getting fired is usually the very last resort. Most women don't see it as worth it to report harassment because corporate harassment policies are not implemented to protect those who are harassed. They serve as legal cover and nothing more. Almost exclusively, only men who engage in the worst kind of behavior get punished.

Anecdotally, men who seem to be the most paranoid about #MeToo tend to be those who have few to 0 platonic female friends. All of the men I know who have a plethora of female friends who they hang out with are not worried about this shit. Only men who exclusively hang out with other men or their significant other are freaking out.

A million times this. Think about the people who often do get canned. They tend to be creeps.

If you have a reputation for making inappropriate jokes, leering at women in the office, and in general behaving in an unprofessional manner, you're making yourself a target of that one in a million false accusation.

If you treat your colleagues and employees with respect and professionalism, you won't get in trouble, end of story.

These conversations always remind me of episode of the The Office where Michael complains that office censorship is preventing him from sending "hilarious" spam forwards and shit like that. The people who get into trouble and then bitch about how "it was just a joke!" deserve every ounce of punishment they get, and frankly, it's always amazing to me how many people on WSO (generally they seem to be younger folks) don't get that.

We're not talking of the proper process of going through the HR channels. One tweet and you could rot. You have next to nothing to gain and everything to lose by toeing this line.

There were a group of kids of a certain ethnicity visiting a Chipotle regularly. When their food was finished, they would grab the to-go bags and run out the door; this happened enough times for their faces to be recognized among the staff. A manager saw the same kids in the store and demanded that they pay first. The kid started filming, saying that because of his ethnicity, they were not being served until they paid first and tagged Chipotle in the tweet.

Chipotle fired that black female manager upon seeing the tweet saying that the restaurant would be closed for a day for proper retraining of employees. They then ate crow when the FACTS came to light that one of the kids had a 'dine and dash' twitter account showing him running off without paying for food as a hobby all over town.

Problem with us financiers and WSO in general is we assume people act rationally with truth and logic. They don't.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/21/race...
Comments are just rich, LMAO!
Nope, sorry, too late.

Sue them for $300,000,000.

This woman (WOMAN!) put herself at risk defending her employees and the company's interests from male (MALE!) thieves and the Company publicly humiliated her, advanced the media's libel and defamation against her, and summarily fired her.

This compmay must be punished hard, so hard that other companies will think twice before obliging politically correct antiAmerican fascist criminals, terrorists, and traitors.

Once Chipotle goes down, then she sues the complicit media agencies for hundreds of millions more.

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Dec 9, 2018

This is stupid.

Newsflash: Women lie. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/7/fa...

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Dec 9, 2018
Ozymandia:

If you treat your colleagues and employees with respect and professionalism, you won't get in trouble, end of story.
i
t's always amazing to me how many people on WSO (generally they seem to be younger folks) don't get that.

Yeah because no woman would ever lie SMH.

Ii always amazes me how many "men" have been brainwashed by a neo-Marxist system that wants to destroy them.

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Dec 9, 2018

Have you ever been on the receiving end of a lying woman's wrath? I have, fucking academy award winning performances with the tears, the moaning, the sobbing.. total bullshit.

Have you ever noticed that the "men" who claim to be feminists and #believewomen only know 2 girls, their wives and their mothers, both of whom are still on a pedestal?

Newsflash: women lie - https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/7/fa...

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Dec 9, 2018

Are you a woman or a "man?"

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Dec 4, 2018
m_1:

Just curious if it's changed anything for anyone else?

Not going to lie, it's made me very paranoid, I don't meet anyone (male or female) at all unless it's in a public place and I had cameras installed with audio at our main office.

I talked to a few executives at larger companies about this and some outright refuse to meet 1 on 1 privately with woman, which I think is really bad. Kind of sad the whole thing has created some serious glass ceilings for woman.

What do you guys think a feasible solution is? The only thing I could think of within reason was meeting in public places exclusively + the whole camera/audio thing but it's a band-aid solution.

Based on the maturity you show in your posts, I somehow doubt you're in a position to "mentor" anyone. However, to answer your question, I think the solution might be to not sexually harass your female colleagues. I know it's probably hard for you, but the sooner you can work on it the better.

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Dec 4, 2018

Totally agree regarding the solution you have proposed. It seems like a simple concept but apparently it is not so simple.

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Dec 4, 2018

One of the main partners at my firm is female. I've never had any issues. When you take home 7 figures, you generally don't want to risk anything and it's always better to be completely safe/protected. If you learned to read, you'd see that I do all meetings regardless of gender in public places or in a rec'd environment. I know reading multi-syllable words can be hard for you though. When you're less broke, maybe you'll understand insulating yourself as much as possible and hedging risk. A novel concept, I know.

Dec 4, 2018
m_1:

One of the main partners at my firm is female. I've never had any issues. When you take home 7 figures, you generally don't want to risk anything and it's always better to be completely safe/protected. If you learned to read, you'd see that I do all meetings regardless of gender in public places or in a rec'd environment. I know reading multi-syllable words can be hard for you though.

Is your username in reference to the BMW M1 from the late '70's / early '80's? That was such an amazing car.....

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Dec 9, 2018

Yeah because it's always men doing the sexual harassment - we all know women are incapable of acting in a sexually inappropriate manner - and no woman would ever lie, exaggerate, or misrepresent the truth.

Believe women!

Dec 4, 2018

hahaha it's sad but the truth people are scared at my firm ...

Dec 4, 2018

Having had a very close friend and roommate falsely accused of rape, and after seeing how he was treated for months by the police and school, I am most likely overly paranoid about things like this. Always down to help, but I've for-sure missed opportunities with women based solely off the fact that I wasn't 110% sure they wanted to have sex.

Dec 5, 2018

I haven't changed anything personally. Why would I?

The people who are concerned; Are you also afraid of interacting with foreigners in case someone accuse you of being racist?

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Dec 5, 2018

being racist isn't illegal

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Dec 9, 2018
Dec 4, 2018

Somewhat related, but a close friend of mine had a crazy fiance. They got in a spat one night and he ended up calling the police to get her to leave his home as she was breaking things and would not obey his order to leave. Police show up and she screams, "He hit me!" That statement alone caused my friend to get arrested, spend a night in the cooler, miss work without the ability to give notice, and have a few future court dates to look forward to.

He was a salesman by trade and figured he could handle things through reason and truth at the first court appearance. No chance. Charges held at the arraignment and he was scheduled for trial accused of assault and battery to some degree I can't recall. He spent nearly five figures in attorneys fees with months of stress and grief only to finally be exonerated when his ex-fiance crumbled during cross examination.

A 3 word lie screamed by her caused all this. He considered going after her civilly to recoup all of the legal fees and lost wages he incurred; but she was a deadbeat socialite with a negative net worth. Even if he won a judgement, it would likely never come to fruition.

The financial impact aside; everyone assumed he was guilty and there is still biased history on google should you search his name. He's certain he's lost sales due to this, but not much he can do to erase old newspaper reports indexed online.

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Dec 5, 2018

and this is why men do that.

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Dec 9, 2018

Every man (or a good friend of his) has been on the receiving end of crazy female wrath, and we all know just how dangerous it is.

Dec 9, 2018

Did they go after her for perjury?

I think a false accusation up to the point of perjury should carry a jail term. Is that what happened?

In a just and proportionate world, the maximum sentence would be the same as the crime the guy was falsely accused of. In practice, we'd cut it to a short term for 95% of accusers. But the thought of a lying woman being left twisting in the wind, wondering what was going to happen to her for a false rape or abuse accusation? That sounds like justice to me.

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Dec 4, 2018
IlliniProgrammer:

Did they go after her for perjury?

I think a false accusation up to the point of perjury should carry a jail term. Is that what happened?

In a just and proportionate world, the maximum sentence would be the same as the crime the guy was falsely accused of. In practice, we'd cut it to a short term for 95% of accusers. But the thought of a lying woman being left twisting in the wind, wondering what was going to happen to her for a false rape or abuse accusation? That sounds like justice to me.

Should they go after her, yes. Did they? No.
Lying on the stand is as common as Jaywalking. Find me an example of either being enforced.

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Dec 6, 2018

Sadly, all it takes is one accusation, even if it's false. I have a lot of female coworkers. I never go one-on-one in secluded areas. I just meet in public places (cafeteria, open concept workspaces, etc) or have others present. I generally mentor people straight out of college but keep everything over email or phone unless it's absolutely necessary to meet. If that happens, it's a Starbucks or restaurant.

I've had a friend falsely accused. His name was dragged through the media and will never be the same. It's better for me due to the fact that I have a fiance and she shows up to a bunch of these public meetings as well. Just be strategic. Don't discriminate, and always have others around if possible. If not, reschedule and make it a public place. My dad always said, "If you don't put yourself into the situation, then the outcome will never be in doubt." I most certainly did put myself at risk during my younger years before I knew the opportunity costs, but now, I have a career and reputation to uphold.

In short, make meetings in public places, and always try to have others around, if not directly involved. Also, don't be a creep.

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Dec 9, 2018

Exactly. Don't be a creep, but take steps to protect yourself.

Dec 10, 2018

Won't even make eye contact with females at work. Too great a risk.

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Dec 9, 2018

That's total BS.

Dec 10, 2018

I don't think it's a big deal unless you're a super sleazy guy who doesn't trust yourself around females.

The statistics of getting a false accusation made against you are so incredibly slim and even if that were to happen, there would be no consequence. Like when Mueller had accusations come out and he sat back and let them be investigated because he knew he was innocent, etc and nothing came of that bs.

tl;dr if you're a normal human being you have nothing to worry about

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Dec 9, 2018

That's such BS.

Do you actually know the false accusations statistics? The answer is no, you don't, because no one does.

And LOL @ no consequences. If you consider your entire life turned upside down of no consequence, then ok.

Dec 10, 2018

There's a great effortpost that reviews ~25 studies on false rape/rape reporting. The summary is this:

  • For both genders you are way more likely to be raped then falsely accused of rape.
  • The estimated number of false rape accusations are around 2-10% at the highest.
  • For 216 False Rape Accusations only 39 named suspects, and only 2 got charged. That means that only 18% of False Rape Accusations actually accuse someone and that only 0.9% of false rape accusations ended up on court.
  • Vast majority of false rape accusations are made by Teenagers, Parents of Children, and the Homeless.
  • 55% of False Rape Accusations are in hopes of getting free medical treatment. Next major category is from teenagers justifying their absences to parents.

The situation is so unlikely to occur, but if I were to end up in it, I would gladly trade my life being turned upside down for exoneration from the allegation of such a horrendous crime.

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Jan 3, 2019

I try to stay away from any random female; the only women I place around me are people I trust (excludes any sort of liberal/SJW)

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Dec 4, 2018
michigan10483:

I try to stay away from any random female; the only women I place around me are people I trust (excludes any sort of liberal/SJW)

With comments like that, I don't think you'll have to worry about women being around you

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Jan 3, 2019

This is very correct; I'm not the best with women outside the workplace (without necessity)

Dec 4, 2018

This is tragic. We have gone beyond the tipping point.

How about we stop with the judgement, categorizing, demonizing and labeling of anything remotely male, masculine, or even dare I say macho as being a negative or "toxic" trait?

Granted, I highly agree that homophobic slurs are something I hear and see way too regularly in a way that's incredibly derisive, flippant and dismissive, and used predominantly by straight males anywhere and everywhere, including on this very board on a very frequent basis.

But the #MeToo movement and the supposedly well-meaning SJW's are tainting things to such a knee-jerk degree that is getting truly ridiculous.

I've had my share of negative interactions with boys and men in real life and on the web for decades. Yet I would NEVER blanket-ly blame/shame/point-the-finger and say that all men are bad or that all male behavior is toxic...if ya paint all men with such a broad brush stroke, ya gonna either run out of men or paint.

And yes, bullying is incredibly pervasive as well as destructive. But guess what, girls and women can be bullies too. I was bullied by girls as well as boys growing up.

Femininity is not weak. Masculinity is not strong. Neither are perfect. They are simply nouns. A well-rounded, well-adjusted man or woman is going to embody both supposed feminine and masculine qualities, which is something I've never fully grasped or understood. My grandmother ran numbers. Is that masculine? My dad was the one to teach me to sew. Is that feminine? My mom was the one to teach me about investments and real estate. Is that masculine? Sadly, there are folks in this day and age that would answer yes to these questions.

Masculinity in and of itself is not the problem. It is the exercising and executing of any behavior or action that is boorish, oppressive, mean-spirited, cruel or negatively limiting/controlling that is inherently wrong.

I don't have children of my own and most of us rarely chooses to actively be a role model, but I say this... for better or worse, the children in our lives are watching us... let our behavior and actions and words be things we would be fine with them emulating and repeating. Masculinity or femininity be damned... strive to be a decent human being, for fuck's sake, period.

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Jan 10, 2019
InfoDominatrix:

How about we stop with the judgement, categorizing, demonizing and labeling of anything remotely male, masculine, or even dare I say macho as being a negative or "toxic" trait?
....

But the #MeToo movement and the supposedly well-meaning SJW's are tainting things to such a knee-jerk degree that is getting truly ridiculous.

I've had my share of negative interactions with boys and men in real life and on the web for decades. Yet I would NEVER blanket-ly blame/shame/point-the-finger and say that all men are bad or that all male behavior is toxic...if ya paint all men with such a broad brush stroke, ya gonna either run out of men or paint.

...

*Femininity is not weak. Masculinity is not strong. Neither are perfect. *
...

Masculinity in and of itself is not the problem. It is the exercising and executing of any behavior or action that is boorish, oppressive, mean-spirited, cruel or negatively limiting/controlling that is inherently wrong.
**
...
**strive to be a decent human being, for fuck's sake, period.

^^^ THIS. Fellow fem here and I 100% agree!!! Couldn't have said it better.

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Dec 4, 2018
surferdude867:

Update - masculinity is officially pathologized:

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles...
@m_1 @IlliniProgrammer @dr_mantistoboggan_MD @DickFuld @InfoDominatrix @Zafrynex @financeiswacc_0 @WolfofWSO @itsanumbersgame @DeepLearning @Ozymandia @lilkingdarbo

An article on US News doesn't make anything "official"

There is a lot of dumb shit written on the internet.

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Dec 4, 2018

Agreed, this isn't about US News & World Report making something supposedly official.

Numerous publications and news outlets covered this story.

The issue is that the APA is supposedly an academic/scientific/professional/research entity that is pushing this "masculinity toxicity" agenda bullshit.

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Dec 9, 2018

CRE, it links to an official APA guideline for "Psychological Practice for Men and Boys"

https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice...
Just read the first page, and you'll see all sorts of stuff about "power" "privilege" and "traditional masculinity" being a problem.

Jan 12, 2019
surferdude867:

Update - masculinity is officially pathologized:

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles...
@m_1 @IlliniProgrammer @dr_mantistoboggan_MD @DickFuld @InfoDominatrix @Zafrynex @financeiswacc_0 @WolfofWSO @itsanumbersgame @DeepLearning @Ozymandia @lilkingdarbo

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx I'm just going to point out what exactly they think the problem with masculinity is:
-competitiveness
-desire for achievement, adventure, risk
-dominance
-aggression

Who has an ideological problem with human competitiveness? Marxists, because it drives inequality of outcome. So if we socially engineer the elimination of competitive spirits, maybe we can get the glorious utopian society, this time right. It's hardly surprising that they pathologize risk taking, which is the driver of human innovation since the beginning of times.
The whole framework of this so called guideliness reprises the Grievance Studies one, which was exposed last year as fraudolent, anti-scientific and ideologically biased to the extreme. It isn't even a surprise that one of the sources of the guidelines is the ''Journal of Black Psychology''.

But of course, we were guaranteed this was all ''fringe lunatics'' and that we were cherrypicking examples and making a big deal out of nothing. There you go. Univerities, mental health bodies, human resource departments are all taken over by this crap. Good luck undoing the damage now.

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Dec 4, 2018

I think the implicit point in all this is that while many of the bullets you list are okay in isolation, when taken together they represent an unhealthy ideal of what "masculinity" should look like. No one thinks that a desire for achievement is unhealthy, but when you pair it with an desire of dominance and assumption of aggression as a means to achieve your goals, that becomes more problematic.

Perhaps it would behoove you to think critically about these things instead of just railing off on whatever you think it says, which in this case is obviously what you want it to say, so you can complain about "Marxists".

It's hardly surprising that they pathologize risk taking, which is the driver of human innovation since the beginning of times.

This is so obviously untrue, or rather, smells so badly of being a truism, that I can't help but call it out. Risk taking has driven a great deal of innovation, yes. The desire to mitigate risk has also done so. Just because something sounds nice and intelligent doesn't make it so.

You clearly have no background in history nor psychology, so it's amusing to me that you present yourself as an expert on both. You've taken great pains to do absolutely nothing to analyze or think critically about the guidelines you've posted; either the context in which they've been formulated or the reasons for their existence in the first place. You have a clear bone to pick with "Marxists," and not even with the intellectual concept of Marxism but the popular conception thereof. Very few people accept Marx as a viable economic philosopher anymore, if any, so it's always fascinating to me when he is held up as some sort of bogeyman.

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Jan 12, 2019

Gillette has joined the liberal war against men (aka their core consumer base).

I'll never buy their products again until they apologize.

Dec 9, 2018

Eh at this point I think the war is over, and I'm checking out from the West.

@DickFuld the fact that you say "it's not that bad" means it really is that bad.

"Boys and men have difficulty showing emotion" - well, there are plenty of men showing emotion in that Gillette twitter feed, and they are being told to "man up."

Total horseshit.

Jan 12, 2019
surferdude867:

Eh at this point I think the war is over, and I'm checking out from the West.

It's over only if you give up like this. Stand and fight. Otherwise they indeed deserve to win.

Dec 4, 2018
surferdude867:

Eh at this point I think the war is over, and I'm checking out from the West.

@DickFuld the fact that you say "it's not that bad" means it really is that bad.

"Boys and men have difficulty showing emotion" - well, there are plenty of men showing emotion in that Gillette twitter feed, and they are being told to "man up."

Total horseshit.

Are you referencing the report or the Gillette ad?

Dec 10, 2018

If you think the message of "stand up against bullys and don't take advantage of women" is a war against men then that says a lot about how you view manhood

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Jan 12, 2019
lilkingdarbo:

If you think the message of "stand up against bullys and don't take advantage of women" is a war against men then that says a lot about how you view manhood

''Don't take advantage of women'' implies I (and everyone else) have ever done it to begin with, meaning all men are guilty before the action. Apparently, that is ok for you. You don't get to speak about manhood when the last time you used Gillette was to cut your balls off.

Collective criminalization is typical of the collectivist thought behind this campaigns. I have no qualms denouncing for the evil that it is.

Dec 9, 2018

Since when is "stand up against bullys and don't take advantage of others" a gender issue?

Women are every bit as guilty of the same shitty behavior.

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Funniest
Dec 4, 2018
neink:

Gillette has joined the liberal war against men. I'll never buy their products again until they apologize.

Talk about snowflakes...

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Jan 12, 2019
CRE:
neink:

Gillette has joined the liberal war against men. I'll never buy their products again until they apologize.

Talk about snowflakes...

Here's the difference between me and actual liberal snowflakes: they want a safe space that protects them from everything they find offensive, which is an always expanding list of things. I don't. I want to give a platform to this ideas, I want to discuss them, I want people to either embrace or dismiss such ideas. No need for censorship or deplatforming.

If SJWs want to play group politics and target me for my race, gender and sexual orientation, fine, let's do that. That is their side, those are their ideas. Let's make people pick sides. They want to hate me and consider me a lesser human being? That leaves no room for negotiations. It's them against us. They picked me as their enemy, I'm willing to fight until one or the either is annihilated. Whatever they throw at me, I will throw back 10 times as much. Come at me snowflakes.

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Dec 9, 2018

Hey one of the big complaints about "masculinity" is that men prefer violence over words, and refuse to show emotions.

So which is it?

If the "femininity" version of this commercial were produced the world would explode.

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Dec 4, 2018

While I'm only a first year analyst, I do have some opinions on this. Aside from not putting myself in clearly compromising situations or being a fuckin creep to female colleagues, I honestly don't plan to do anything to "avoid" being accused of whatever. If someone does accuse me of some sort of harassment, so be it. Like fuck them, but thats the way she goes I guess. While this stuff does happen, I don't believe it's fair to put additional glass ceilings over women, who already deal with a lot of them in financial services. While yeah, this stuff does kinda scare me when I hear about it, I don't really plan on changing anything in my life.

Dayman?

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Dec 4, 2018

One OG got it right with his daughter.
Castor Troy: "If you dress like Halloween, ghouls will try to get in your pants."

It does cut both ways. Another OG got it right using this analogy.

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Jan 12, 2019
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Jan 12, 2019