"I think college is basically for fun and to prove you can do your chores, but they are not for learning. You can learn anything for free." - Elon Musk
Is Elon right about finance as a major?
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Agreed. I think most majors can be done in two years and students should be taking 18-21 hours. Get rid of all the required "help you think" classes and required "Marketing101/IT101/Unrelated to my degree 101" classes. Maybe 3 years for STEM.
Most people go to college because it's a requirement for most jobs but I think at a social level it allows adolescents who should be adults to delay adulthood. All kinds of great lectures on this topic online by some controversial and non controversial people.
Hell most degrees could actually be done in 2 years on a normal schedule. I looked at all of my business classes and Finance classes I haven't seen a program that couldn't be speed up.
That's actually a lot like the UK education system. Not too many unrequited classes and undergrad programs are 3 years in duration instead of 4.
Disagree on some points here. Well-rounded education, including humanities and sciences, is important for any major. If kids went to college and just learned how to model financial statements, colleges would be producing robots incapable of thinking critically for themselves. In my experience, finance classes do not teach those skills. Further, if humans lose the ability to think critically, the argument that we can all be easily replaced by AI becomes stronger.
That said, I think a lot of people have no business in higher ed and should not go to college unless there is a clear path to repaying debt. It shouldn’t be the default choice.
Then those individuals that find that valuable can delay graduation and take 4 years. Shouldn't be required though.
Colleges already are producing students incapable of thinking critically, and they are doing so under the cover of humanities/liberal arts. And it's costing students an incredible amount of money for the privilege.
Very few classes these days teach anyone to be “well-rounded” - this is a meme that stopped being true many years ago. Is that theoretically something to be desired? Sure. Is that something that’s achieved with the modern college education? Not at all.
You know where you learn to be well-rounded real quickly? A real-world working environment.
I find the American education system fascinating. Some of my friends went to the US to study sociology, philosophy and other gen-ed courses because it would make them well-rounded and intellectual individuals. They are now the most narrow-minded and intolerant people that I know.
My co-worker's daughter who is a senior in high school is looking to go to veterinary school in Hungary because there they get right down to business from day one. She'll be done in 4 years. The American college industrial complex seeks to trap students into expensive degrees because it feeds the system. When in doubt, follow the money.
Some Americans claim that they studied a lot of fluff during college - so 4 years were unnecessarily long and expensive. However, as someone who went through the European education system, I think I prefer the American one. Like one of those clueless high school kids, I chose to study business, so I did a bunch of econ, finance, accounting, and general management classes. Realized that I wanted to do quant finance, so asked the dean if I could enroll in some hard core math/stats/programming classes from the engineering school - the answer was "no", and I would need to reapply for a 2nd bachelor if I wanted to go down that route. Well, fuk. So I graduated with a very vanilla degree and can only have access to vanilla finance/consulting jobs. With my degree I won't have a chance at any financial engineering master's program and the MA/PhD in Econs/academia route is closed for me. All I could do now is work for several years, get an MBA, and be content with life...
If I could go back to re-do my undergrad, then I would have definitely chosen to study in the US and double majored in Econ + Math, and maybe would have done a 1-year graduate degree in Europe for the novelty value. The European educational style only works for those who know for sure what they want to study when they're 18 years old - but really, how many people can confidently say what they want out of life at 18?
Uhh, depending on when you decide to make the switch, you will face the exact same issues at an American university. You think the engineering school just allows you to capriciously change your major from accounting to mechanical engineering? You think the business school, with its precious few slots and high demand, will allow an econ major to just take up a spot in its cherished accounting program? Think again.
Umm no - for people coming from underprivileged families and no connection to anything - college is a gateway to a better life. Marginally, it makes a larger difference in a person's life if they are coming from low income backgrounds to college with scholarship.
Education > McDonalds after HS
Just read a book homie
Exactly.
You completely missed the point of the question....
There are so many wonderful resources out there to help you learn outside of college, but I think that when you actually put yourself in an environment where learning is the main goal (i.e. college - or really any other institutions of learning) I think you learn more effectively. It helps you segment a portion of your day to become dedicated to learning - amidst jobs, children, significant others - which, I've found, is hard to do in a vacuum.
Not to mention, colleges have so many resources (access to massive libraries that tower over your local library, research websites, etc.) that may be very expensive for the individual but are available through the scale of the college and can be a significant boon to learning.
Education has increased over 2000% in the last 40 years yet the product is the absolute same. salaries are similar, still large lectures with absolute no learning.
be ready for an education revolution coming up soon.
Maybe it's because the expected increase is equal to the actual increase? Cause it's clear we can't say that the product is the same - methodologies are constantly improving. Economics for example is an extremely recent science that is constantly being improved on the run. Open Romer's book on "Advanced Macro" and you'll see models in there from the 90s and 00s. Most of the metrics we frequent towards might've been created more than 40 years ago, but at the time, they lacked empirical application and were merely the equivalents of the theses we write nowadays - we prove X, but that doesn't mean X is going to get adopted.
College is essentially an insurance policy so you don’t fall through the cracks and end up working a non skilled, low paying job your entire life
True even though shitty colleges just expedite a shitty career
Sure, you can learn without the structure of a competitive academic environment. But then you start getting these Twitter trolls who think 24hrs and no sleep down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole is doing important "research" uncovering the secrets behind the "deep state".
College is about the badge not the education, like most things in life.
College is about so much more than just learning. It’s about becoming an adult, learning to live on your own, and developing social skills. There’s a reason that people think online education doesn’t hold a candle to a real college experience. Looking back on my college experience, there wasn’t much I learned in the classroom that I couldn’t have taught myself off the internet, but those 4 years absolutely shaped who I am today and were 100% worthwhile for becoming a functioning adult.
that’s literally the quote.
Adulthood is about working 20 hours a week, going out 4 nights a week to binge drink, and feeling like you're a martyr, right? Or is it about sleeping in until noon to make it to your afternoon classes? Or is it about having all of your beliefs coddled and confirmed? Or is it about having your parents or a loan foot the bill for all of your living expenses? I'm confused about this whole college = adulthood thing.
Lol nothing about college signals adulthood. A good portion of the people I know there are all siphoning their parents bank accounts, and taking out money they wont pay back for a decade and barely passing by in their classes while getting shitfaced every night with $1 beer specials.
Then they start complaining about how it's the governments fault and greedy capitalists when they can't pay it back.
It's funny seeing college students think they're in "adulthood" because they don't live with mom and dad anymore...very cringe.
If this was your collegiate experience then perhaps Mr. Musk's quote does apply to you. This is by no means the universal, though.
Maybe there is an argument to be made that there are too many colleges offering shit degrees, and are places to do what you're describing and just party for 4 years. But that doesn't mean the concept of college is bankrupt, just that the bottom xx percentile of them aren't worthwhile uses of time or money.
College is for banging chicks period
Lot of blanket statements here- I think it depends on the individual. If you go out of your way to take challenging classes with good professors, I think it can really help develop writing and argumentation skills, improve logicial/quantitative thinking, broaden your worldview, etc. etc. If you view it as a trade school where you just learn how to calcluate IRR and learn the pure technicals you need for an entry level job, then yeah, I think you miss out on a lot of the true leanring/skill development.
And either way, there is the social side- you can connect with other bright students and accomplished professors and open yourself up to higher paying jobs.
Imagine thinking that college ISN'T just a method to create a debt market with high interest rates. College is definitely BS, I learned everything I used to get my IB offer by reading books and self-studying, what college was USEFUL for was the brand name and the network, without a doubt it is super important in this regard. But if you unironically think college is for learning then you probably got scammed into student debt; essentially, unless you're going to a top 100 and you're sharp, a top 50 and you're average or a top 20, you lost the game.
Idk, I guess if you view college soley as a means to get an entry level finance job making ppt slides, then sure. But I do think many of my more challening classes- esp. writing/research intensive liberal arts and upper-level, proof-based math courses have really improved my writing, argumentation, critical thinking, and logical reasoning skills. Even though those aren't directly applicable to analyst IB or PE jobs, they are definitely useful skills at the upper level in whatever industry you're in. I often hear seniors saying those skills tend to be lacking in junior folks, so I think if you take the time to develop them in college, you can set yourself apart as your job becomes less of an excel monkey and more of a senior deal maker/advisor/investor/whatever.
I completely agree with this view that liberal arts is important for developing more abstract skills that are useful and have more direct applications than people expect, but the factual reality is that college is a waste (from a financial perspective) for 80% of people. Also, I don't need classes to teach me these skills, it is possible to develop these same skills you're discussing through reading the right concoction of literature and philosophy book; my whole argument is that you do NOT need some institution to do any of these. To each their own though.
You could say the same about high school
Agreed. In fact, the life-altering book "The Case Against Education" makes this very point about high school AND college.
Elon has been watching too much Rick and Morty
I learned a lot in college
100 people in my house, fine. 200? hope you're wearing shoes, because you're spending the night in jail.
you can successfully have 3 women in rotation. beyond that, your stories are impossible to keep straight. FD: not me, roommate of mine
nothing good happens after 1:30am, so if you can leave the bar early and make it to the pizza joint ahead of 2am cutoff, you can grab a slice, a brew, and watch all of your friends stumble in (also a good way to see who's bombed and who's not, flourescent lights are a great way to avoid late night mistakes)
you do NOT need to be sober to pass a test. you do, however need to be sober to give a good speech.
trust your instincts. if you think she's too drunk, she is. if you think you're too drunk, you are. if that weird guy with the chinstrap beard and backwards flexfit shows up, he's looking to date rape girls or steal your weed, kick him out, he's not serious about rushing.
Thinking back, all college gave me was an increased bodycount and a coke habit
A college degree is still important because it’s the only track record of one’s competency in a particular field ( I believe this is slowly changing however). A good GPA in a specific field of study and expressing some social skills (clubs on campus etc) is about the only signaling tool employers have when considering people for FT/internship opportunities. That being said, it’s horrendously outdated, overpriced, and takes far too long to complete under normal circumstances.
Elon is probably statistically correct here. Colleges were originally formed for intellectual masturbation, but all kids in schools do today is try to get by so they can physically masturbate with each other. It's rare to meet someone in the real world who actually thinks about college in a serious, intellectual manner. Most people just want to talk about school like it's another accessory. Come to think of it, that's the most common trait I find in people, especially middle class people, is accessorizing most aspects of their life.
Also why the college admission scandal happens....parents want to accessorize their own kid's education!
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No, he's 100% wrong. Or rather, he's right that there are people who don't take it seriously and go to have fun, or those who overpay for what amounts to a vocational school, but college does teach you how to think, how to research, helps to expand your intellectual horizons. You get out of it what you put in - people who treat it as a 4 year party are wasting their time for sure. People who go into it trying to learn something carry that with them forever.
He's right. College doesn't provide anything you can't learn on your own - but it's really about the experience (as silly as that sounds). If you extend that logic - why not just home school your kids from day 1?
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