Is America a Second-Tier Country?

Hey Monkeys,
Read up on this article from Bloomberg.

The article is based on the Social Progress Index report that is published annually by non-profit organization Social Progress Imperative.

I did some research and found results on the 2016 report and we actually rose up a rank from 19 to 18.

Over the past few years, America was faced with numerous social/civil issues that caused some aspects of the index to fall.

Since 2014, as discrimination in America rises based on race, religion, sexual identity, and national origin, U.S. scores in the "tolerance and inclusion" category fell, according to the study.

But...

America leads the world when it comes to access to higher education.

Thoughts?
Comments?
Edit: After the couple monkey shits I got, clearly I did something wrong - is it the wording in my post? If so, to make things clear, guys, I just wanted to open this topic to discussion and get some of your opinions. Please don't shoot the messenger.
Edit2: I do not think America is racist.

Comments (161)

Jun 21, 2017

Interested to know what "access to higher education" is defined by. Yes we may have the most college/universities but does it consider the average, long-term, negative impact that a 4-year school has on a student by requiring that they take out student loans?

What about the various European countries that have nearly free tuition?

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Jun 21, 2017

I've never seen a university require students to take out student loans.

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Jun 21, 2017

No, but our student loan system is absolutely flawed, sets kids up to fail, and allows for universities to raise prices without a change in demand. Sallie Mae guarantees student loans, which means kids who take out loans they won't be able to pay back to study majors that won't get them a job are still getting loans. It's the same issue with the housing crisis. The demand curve is being artificially shifted right which raises the price, making the student loan issue worse.

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Jun 22, 2017

Absolutely agree. I can pull out a loan for any amount and they will give it to me without a second doubt as long as they can verify I am in university. Source: I've done so. But at the same time like you said universities are an absolute business to the highest degree. The cost of books has sky rocketed, the tuition, hell I paid $600 dollars to share a room in a 2 room apartment. Now a days without a degree you cannot find a job in any sense. Which is okay I believe that education is important, but man they are abusing my pockets/future pockets.

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Jun 21, 2017

Universities absolutely act as a business. They are "non-profit," but instead of profits they have bigger bonuses for administration.

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Jun 24, 2017
BatemanBatemanBateman:

Interested to know what "access to higher education" is defined by. Yes we may have the most college/universities but does it consider the average, long-term, negative impact that a 4-year school has on a student by requiring that they take out student loans?

What about the various European countries that have nearly free tuition?

A college education should be free investment in human capital is good economics.

Jun 21, 2017

The only appropriate response:

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Jun 24, 2017

Haha, thanks for the laugh man. +SB.

Jun 22, 2017

Hilarious. SB

Jun 21, 2017

you don't like it move to Iran.

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Jun 24, 2017

Don't like what?

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Jun 21, 2017

all the winning we are about to do! As for the social index, name another country someone like the kardashians could make $M's based off of that TV show? There's interracial marriage, a sex change and rich white women taking advantage of a last name their father built that's not allowed in some countries. Also Kanye might be the smartest and most sane of them all haha

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Jun 21, 2017

Yeezy>

Jun 22, 2017

"don't like it move to ...."

That's a propaganda technique employed by state intelligence services to subvert and suppress dissent.

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Jun 21, 2017

my father was in gov.

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Jun 22, 2017

So you believe that if there are countries that are less free and worse off, we shouldn't have anything to complain about and shouldn't look to improve anything?

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Jun 22, 2017

that's like Mauritania saying "hey, we're no Somalia, it's great here!"

actually I'll say that complaining and progressing is wonderfully American. we designed a system that shuns monarchy, encourages debate (Berkeley protesters notwithstanding), and rewards winners.

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Jun 21, 2017

Where is this utopia you guys talk about? No country in history has produced more inventions, ideas, technology, entertainment, education than the USA. In less than 300 yrs we have advanced further and faster on a social, political, technology, and economic front than any one country with a diversity unlike any other country.

We went from the Salem Witch trials (people believing in witchcraft), to electricity, to an Iphone and gender neutral bathrooms in a real short time.

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Jun 21, 2017

should note I'm talking about the people that make up the US and early stage founding government. Not defending the government today. Also mi padre doesn't work for the CIA and totally won't 'x' you out ha.

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Jun 22, 2017

just because we're #1 doesn't mean we can't improve bro. that's one thing I love about America. we're great, but we always want to improve.

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Jun 21, 2017

Do me a favor.
1. Take a step back.
2. Literally fuck your own face.

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Jun 22, 2017

+1... HAHHAHA

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Jun 21, 2017

"Since 2014, as discrimination in America rises based on race, religion, sexual identity, and national origin, U.S. scores in the "tolerance and inclusion" category fell, according to the study"

I don't believe this at all. I'd love to see the raw data on this claim. Are they seriously asserting that gay people have faced INCREASED discrimination since 2014? That claim seems utterly preposterous.

Jun 21, 2017

I think you would have to ask what time period they are comparing it to. I have almost no doubt that since the election of Obama, racial tensions have heightened in this country. And no, it isn't because Obama "divided the country", which is a convenient scapegoat that individuals who are unwilling to address the real issues we face use (unless you mean he divided the country by being a black dude that got elected president). A lot of the racial backlash in this country is directly related to the angst caused by having a minority run the country, enough angst that "he's Muslim" or "he isn't born in the U.S." became actual arguments used by reputable individuals (like our current president) to defame him. You can look at the swelling ranks of hate groups after his election to realize that reality. To answer the OPs post, I think if you aren't upper-middle class or higher, America is a 2nd tier country in comparison to our counterparts in Western Europe/ Scandinavia, Canada, and Australia.

p.s. I welcome the MS, I will never stop speaking my mind on this forum. Ofc I realize that I am beset by (mostly) upper-middle class+ white people/ Asians on this forum so I'll speak from my point of view and that point of view may not coalesce with the forum consensus and that's fine. If your point of view differs so be it.

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Jun 21, 2017

The time period is since 2014...Says it right there in the first and second words...

Jun 21, 2017

Why are your man-splaining. Dats rayyycis.

Jun 21, 2017

I am saying what time period are they comparing it to? After 2014 to... what? To 2010-2014? Anytime before 2014..? No clue.

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Jun 21, 2017

I think you hit the nail on the head. American's seem to be very, very sensitive if you even imply they aren't the greatest country that has ever existed. America has definitely become a much more hostile environment for a minority of any sort and anyone who doesn't think it's a country as divided as it has been in some time probably needs to step outside of the WASP / Jewish environment of the northeast.

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Jun 21, 2017

The greatest nation to ever exist is easily the Roman Empire (slavery and hedonism notwithstanding).

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Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

p.s. I welcome the MS, I will never stop speaking my mind on this forum. Ofc I realize that I am beset by (mostly) upper-middle class+ white people/ Asians on this forum so I'll speak from my point of view and that point of view may not coalesce with the forum consensus and that's fine. If your point of view differs so be it.

be*set
[email protected]'set/Submit
verb
1.
(of a problem or difficulty) trouble or threaten persistently.

are upper-middle class white/asian people troubling or threatening you persistently... by having differing opinions? did you mean to use this word in a different way...? maybe the google definition is wrong?

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Jun 21, 2017

surround and harass; assail on all sides.
"I was beset by clouds of flies"

synonyms: surround, besiege, hem in, shut in, fence in, box in, encircle
"they were beset by enemy forces"

*hem in; enclose.
"the ship was beset by ice"

  1. archaic
    be covered or studded with.
    "blades of grass beset with glistening drops of dew"

Are you a troll? There are other definitions of the word. I would go with surrounded (or assailed on all sides) in my meaning, and no, anonymous people on a forum do not make me feel "threatened".

Jun 21, 2017

so if you are being harassed and surrounded (or assailed on all sides), shouldn't you just report that to the mods? what are people doing to harass you besides having different opinions or views?

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Jun 21, 2017

Idgaf about differing opinions, the unnecessary MS anytime I post something that contradicts their point of view is what I refer to when I say "assailed". Obviously this is a minor issue so it isn't worth too much thought or any sort of follow up.

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Jun 21, 2017

What a bunch of trolls trawling the forums.....BTB's intended meaning for the word is correct in the way he intended, though the usage was incorrect. Still, no reason to gang up on him.
"Beset" by the views of white bois and asian bois. Not by them - that would mean they're harassing you, and maybe groping you and shit.

GoldenCinderblock: "I keep spending all my money on exotic fish so my armor sucks. Is it possible to romance multiple females? I got with the blue chick so far but I am also interested in the electronic chick and the face mask chick."

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Jun 21, 2017

There was nothing incorrect about my usage of the word.

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Jun 21, 2017

but isn't it just someone's opinion whether or not MS is necessary or unnecessary? why should you get to decide for them whether it is or isn't? so aren't you doing the same thing and "assailing" them right back?

as*sail
@'sal/Submit
make a concerted or violent attack on.
(of an unpleasant feeling or physical sensation) come upon (someone) suddenly and strongly.
criticize (someone) strongly.

i hope these assailants let up soon, i fear for your life! huge scandal!

Jun 22, 2017

FWIW, I'm a black guy and I completely disagree with you, though I held off on any MS since there's nothing wrong with or offensive about your points on balance.

Racial tensions have always been "heightened" in this country. If anything, the advent of cell phone video has had more to do with that, spurring the BLM movement and activism, then having a black President. Only here can we argue that it's both immense progress AND fuel for racism to have a black President. And that black President didn't help the cause much, demanding that boys be in bathrooms with girls, weighing in on every racial incident, and presiding over the most inequality we've seen in 3 generations with his stimuli to nowhere and mess of a health care plan. If we're going to point fingers let's get the targets right.

WTF is a tolerance and inclusion study, anyway? I'll believe my own eyes: Gay marriage is a thing, stop and frisk was struck down by courts, Asians are the highest earners in the country, women have more and better access to education than at any other period in our history, we allow transgendered boys to absolutely dominate girls sports, etc. and we're to believe that discrimination has increased? Good grief

as for tiers of countries-no, I don't expect that we'll rate higher than countries that are homogenous, with one language, strict immigration policy, and a population of individuals most likely to agree on everything. But fuck I don't think I want to be Europe either. I'm texting my friends in london every week asking about the latest terror incident, Spain has become a black hole for young workers (who are all moving to Argentina just to find jobs), Greece is a slave state, etc. Grass is always greener but give me a break.

Jun 21, 2017

Oh, no doubt that racial tensions have always been heightened and cell phone video exposed that. My point is that conservatives blame Obama for making things worse when that is bullshit. Agreed on the progress and fuel for racism, that's my point. Don't know what unisex bathrooms have to do with the racial debate, honestly who gives a shit? why is this an issue? Just make bathrooms unisex and be done with it. America's puritanical aversion to the other sex is just weird. Who gives a shit if a chic named Sally is taking a shit next to a dude named John? But again, don't know why this was even brought up. I'm sorry he had the NERVE to weigh in on racial incidents, my God, how dare he? Inequality has been expanding since like the 60s, pointless point. Let me make this clear, Obamacare is the healthcare plan he could get through congress (Obama wants universal healthcare plain and simple) and that plan has forever changed the way this nation views healthcare. Even the Senate's Obamacare "repeal" is just a watered down version of Obamacare.

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Jun 21, 2017
Dances with Dachshunds:

"Since 2014, as discrimination in America rises based on race, religion, sexual identity, and national origin, U.S. scores in the "tolerance and inclusion" category fell, according to the study"

I don't believe this at all. I'd love to see the raw data on this claim. Are they seriously asserting that gay people have faced INCREASED discrimination since 2014? That claim seems utterly preposterous.

As a gay guy I disagree.

In general, there has been less discrimination against gays coming from conservatives-- that, I strongly agree with.

There has been more discrimination against gays coming from liberals. Particularly in the realm of politics and money. Face it: if you make money or vote Republican and happen to stick to your side of the fence, it drives liberals off the deep end. You are a bigger target for them than a white straight male. Then add in the fact that most (not all) gays are male, and we get called out for our male privilege. Oh and then there's all of the feminists getting into our bedrooms-- women telling two adult men whether or not they can do it after a few beers or not, yet demanding that we stay out of their bodies when they want to kill a fetus.

Honestly, this country was a lot better in 2007 when the biggest obstacles to my civil rights and liberties were fundygelicals. At least they did it with a grandfatherly smile and claimed they were opposed to our civil rights and liberties because they wanted the best for us and loved us. Also, while I am not going to overlook the violence some of us faced (IE Matthew Shepard), the evangelicals didn't engage in riots. And compared to the politics of today they look quite forgiveable in retrospect.

We used to be a country where we could just sorta live and let live. Whatever happened to that?

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Jun 21, 2017

"if you make money or vote Republican and happen to stick to your side of the fence, it drives liberals off the deep end."

They can't understand why you vote for the party that actively discriminates against LGBT rights, after all the party you vote for fought voraciously against your right to get married, of course it's because you're rich but that just makes you a sellout (in their eyes not mine). I don't see how this is discrimination against gays though, they dislike you not for being gay but (mostly) for being a republican.

"Then add in the fact that most (not all) gays are male, and we get called out for our male privilege."

Again, nothing to do with discrimination against gays, this is a male-female thing.

" Oh and then there's all of the feminists getting into our bedrooms-- women telling two adult men whether or not they can do it after a few beers or not, yet demanding that we stay out of their bodies when they want to kill a fetus."

No idea what you're talking about here so some examples would be nice.

To be honest, you seem to be taking it to the extreme in this post. You're talking about extremist liberals not moderates, if we juxtapose that to extremist conservatives I would venture to guess you'd rather be around the extremist liberals being gay than extremist conservatives, although both sides are crazy.

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Jun 22, 2017
BobTheBaker:

" Oh and then there's all of the feminists getting into our bedrooms-- women telling two adult men whether or not they can do it after a few beers or not, yet demanding that we stay out of their bodies when they want to kill a fetus."

No idea what you're talking about here so some examples would be nice.

T

There is feminist theory now that claims that any sex while intoxicated is a form of rape. This is actually a thing. The example they use is if you sleep with your wife while she or you have had 2 glasses of wine you raped your wife. The basic premise from my standpoint is that they get rid of any accountability. They realized this when they only tried to sue young men in colleges, and only young men, for rape when both parties were intoxicated. E.G. boy has 10 beers, woman has 4 beers, they have sex...only the man(student) is charged with rape. Somehow the women escape all responsibility for sleeping with a man under the influence. They finally realized this logic didn't work and was more regressive toward women not being a person enough to make a conscious decision that they changed their mind to this everything is now rape.

Jun 21, 2017

Oh yea that is batshit crazy. I can understand if a sober dude kept feeding a chic drinks, or vice versa, then baits him/ her into sex, that is assault in my opinion, but when both parties are drunk then how is that rape? If you can pass a sobriety test then you can consent to sex, idk how 2 glasses of wine or a beer or 2 would stop you from consenting. Again, I think illini only spoke of the extremists which is intellectually dishonest as that does not represent the majority.

Jun 22, 2017

the 2 beers was an example, so let's keep it that both parties are legally intoxicated enough they cannot drive an automobile(4 beers?). They were not talking about forcefull penetrative rape or blackout drunk rape. Basically if i fuck my wife after we have 3 margaritas I have raped her. So by that omission I have raped her at least dozens of times. I am going to turn myself in now. By that logic then she has also raped me dozens of times, so I will be going to report her to the authorities.

Feminists, they want their cake and eat it too. And usually do.

Jun 24, 2017

Hell, my wife said the best loving I ever made was a night when I was straight blackout-drunk. My only regret is that I don't remember it.

This feminist crap about alcohol+sex=rape is complete and utter nonsense.

What's next, accusing a newborn that's born vaginally of rape? Gtfo...

Jun 25, 2017

Once again, these are extreme views. There is no state where sleeping with your whine after two glasses of wine gets you in trouble (assuming she consented). There is no legal standard by which alcohol = rape. Stop bsing. Your (non) examples are irrelevant

Jun 21, 2017

"They can't understand why you vote for the party that actively discriminates against LGBT rights, after all the party you vote for fought voraciously against your right to get married, of course it's because you're rich but that just makes you a sellout (in their eyes not mine). I don't see how this is discrimination against gays though, they dislike you not for being gay but (mostly) for being a republican."

so they don't want gay people to be republicans, just like @IlliniProgrammer literally said... isn't that a form of bigotry? gay people have to conform to their views of the world and their voting party or else what, they are bad or aren't real gay people?

so if i think that a party has fought voraciously against someone's rights and don't think they should vote for them, should i harass them or treat them like they are lesser, because they don't conform to my view of who they should vote for? i don't think so and that seems to be IP's beef, i don't think anything he said was referring to extremists outside of the main stream thought of the democratic party...

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Jun 21, 2017

Also to be sure, I don't consider America to be a second tier country, nor do I consider the University of Illinois to be a second tier university.

America's values are liberty and hard work. They have not served us perfectly, but they have served us well.

There are things about this country that I think everyone would like to make better, but I like the country just the way it is.

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Jun 24, 2017

So, third-tier university then?

Jun 21, 2017
San Ford:

So, third-tier university then?

Nope, that's Harvard. #EngineeringRankings

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Best Response
Jun 22, 2017

America is thought of as a second tier country because we're behind or vastly different from the traditionally "top countries" (mostly in Europe) in the following:

-quality of primary education
-defense spending (we spend a LOT)
-cost of healthcare
-social rights (LGBT stuff)
-gun control
-violent crime
-income inequality
-cost of college
-environmental legislation

but let me hit you with reality, this is the best fucking country on earth if you believe in capitalism:

  1. most established, deep, transparent, and efficient financial markets
  2. easy to start & fail at business (ask anyone from LatAm why this is important)
  3. access to capital
  4. quality of colleges
  5. quality of healthcare (drug R&D capital of the world)
  6. despite the rhetoric, we do not have massive demographic issues, 23 is now the most common age in the US (and the boomers aren't the biggest generation)
  7. individual freedoms (religion, speech, assembly, etc.)
  8. natural resources, natural beauty, and geographic size (no we're not running out of oil, people have been calling for peak oil for hundreds of years)
  9. manifest destiny and meritocracy - the american dream still exists, most of the fortune 400 started either with nothing or a miniscule fraction of what they have today, so they BUILT it.
  10. ethnic diversity. ever been to China? India? Italy? Sweden? the reason we have diversity issues is because we're actually DIVERSE, despite the countries who opine about our intolerance.

we all have our issues, but if you asked me where I would be born if I could completely start over, I wouldn't choose anywhere else. maybe I would've chosen southern california instead of the midatlantic, but still USA no doubt.

that being said, if you value things more than the ability to better your circumstances, then you may not like USA. but if you believe in capitalism, you shouldn't want to be anywhere else.

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Jun 21, 2017

I agree with everything you've said, wasn't born here but if I could choose what country to be born in/ live in for the rest of my life it would be the United States. With that said, the losers of this capitalist dream would all be better off in Western Europe, Scandinavia, Canada, or Australia.

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Jun 22, 2017

no argument there, and your first statement is why I keep coming back to why America is #1. it depends on what you value, but if everyone wants to be here, there has to be something to it, right?

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Jun 21, 2017

I don't entirely agree with this. I'm not knocking you for the points you made in your initial post (I don't disagree with them), and I want to make that clear.

I'm an immigrant from a developing country and I can reassure you that for my ethnic group in particular, immigrating to the US is really close to a trend than it is a thought out decision for someone from my country. The US definitely does not (in my case, has not) given us everything and in some cases I feel has actually taken a lot from us in our lifestyle and the quality of living. It's only recently that a lot of us are recognizing that going to the US isn't nearly as wonderful as it turned out to be and that there are other satisfactory alternatives to a better life (hell, other alternative countries to even immigrate to). Although this is relative depending on where your socioeconomic standing is in my home country -- obviously going to the US is probably beneficial (along with a bunch of other possible actions) if you're living in extreme poverty in the first place (and I mean no electricity extreme poverty).

Sorry about being so vague, I wanted to avoid sharing any personal details about myself.

But again even in spite of my earlier statements, I want to make it clear that even if someone does immigrate to the US, I think it is undeniable that after living here for an extended period of time and figuring out what is important to succeeding in the country, then yes if you play your cards well, you'll get a lot out of living here.

Jun 22, 2017

I'm curious about your point on detracting from quality of life. I wonder if you're talking about something that I've seen anecdotally (someone immigrates from pakistan, tries to hit it big, fails, and winds up being an uber driver. not actually America's fault, just that opportunity doesn't mean a guarantee of success), or if coming to this country was actually a decrease in your standard of living. I'm legitimately curious about this, because if that's your experience, I'd want to know more.

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Jun 21, 2017

Would it be okay if I PM'd you? I originally typed something up but I ended up feeling really uncomfortable sharing parts of my immigrant story in an open forum.

I see you around WSO and I think you're a pretty okay guy so I wouldn't mind entertaining your curiosity if you'd like to chat about this.

Jun 22, 2017

go for it

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Jun 21, 2017

-quality of primary education: this is a problem but because of brain drain and how good our universities and colleges are at the highest levels, don't we still benefit from other countries good primary education systems, sometimes more than they do?

-defense spending: couldn't a lot of these countries, ex. Scandinavian ones, not actually provide these other benefits if we didn't spend to take a shit load on defense? a lot of our NATO allies don't pay the amount they are supposed to.

-cost of healthcare: shit man you are spot on with this one haha no rebuttal at all

-social rights: really? i'm pretty sure we have like 10000 groups that focus on LGBT rights man, i don't think our country is particularly bigoted... the president is the first openly pro-gay marriage president-elect ever and the only president to ever have a gay man head his transition team

-gun control: no rebuttal here =/

-violent crime: got any stats on this? we are probably worse than a lot but sweden and some similar places have seen huge spikes in crime recently

-income inequality: welp

-cost of college: you don't like us having $1.3T in college debt? i think it's working fine!

-environmental legislation: besides the paris climate accord, are we really bad at this? i honestly think that was a shit deal btw, if you look at the actual climate models the UN was using and how much it would cost...

Jun 22, 2017

look, I don't think all of the negatives I said about America are as big problems as they are, I'm just sharing what's commonly cited as reasons why we're not #1. I learned that it all depends on the lens through which you view things and what is important to you.

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Jun 21, 2017

you make good points :) i was just discussing further, and yeah a lot of people view issues through a different lens.

Jun 22, 2017

for violent crime, look at murder rates per capita. several countries are worse than us, but we're way worse than most of the countries commonly cited as better than us (western europe, scandinavia, australia).

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Jun 21, 2017

the way I see it, none of these problems are immediately fatal.

they can all be addressed with incremental progress over decades.

all the other countries listed in the Bloomberg article are A) much smaller geographically and B) much more homogeneous demographically than the U.S. - both of which make it easier for politicians in those countries to implement policies that please and benefit everyone.

If you are competent and hardworking, you would have the same chance of becoming successful in either the U.S. or a Scandinavian country. If you are stupid or lazy, or both, you will be screwed anywhere, but probably less so in a Scandinavian country.

Jun 22, 2017

In China, we're called Mei Guo, which translates to Beautiful Country. We don't point out how good this is often.

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Jun 22, 2017

they must never fly into LaGuardia then...

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Jun 22, 2017

NYC stinks and the beggars for my rare spare change are inescapable. But it's a city with the highest highs and lowest lows. Overall, America has plenty of arable land, dense mountain ranges, running waterways feeding the central country, and access to the Atlantic and Pacific. It's an awesome country with protected borders on all four sides. We're advantaged in more ways than having pioneered the modern world.

Jul 2, 2017
thebrofessor:

- ethnic diversity. ever been to China? India? Italy? Sweden? the reason we have diversity issues is because we're actually DIVERSE, despite the countries who opine about our intolerance.we all have our issues.....

Agree with all the points made except the above. India is way more ethnically, culturally, foodwise, religionwise etc. etc. diverse, long before America came into existence and when diversity became fashionable in the western world.

Sometimes I feel too much diversity in my country is more detrimental in building a nation.

Jun 21, 2017

Yep, America is now DOGSHIT.

BOTH the governing leadership AND general populace....COMPLETELY HOPELESS

Putin is GOD, and his Russia is a shining NATION ON A HILL.

Russia = Goldman Sachs
U.S. = Tobin and Co.

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Jun 21, 2017

This is stupid, look at the source for this report and then step back and think what possible motive they could have for making America appear low on this ranking? Could it possibly be that they are a social program focused non profit that benefits from studying the social program sector? What better way to bring in more money for studies than making the country appear low on the charts. Why just do one study when you could follow that up with dozens that try to find ways to improve things?

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Jun 21, 2017

Fake news.

Social Progress Imperative? Lol, sounds like an objective source. Might as well just title the article "Here is a random reason we don't like Trump or Red America today."

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Jun 22, 2017

I have never understood how government taking more and more control over the people is a sign of progress.

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Jun 22, 2017

remember the source: elitist liberal bloomberg who opines about everything yet has benefitted from the capitalistic unequal income generating society which his empire bashes regularly, not to mention his company (and therefore his billions) was built on the notion of information asymmetry (you pay to get the best info instead of it being for free).

how delightfully hypocritical

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Jun 22, 2017

Exactly! It fits a narrative to get clicks.

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Jun 21, 2017

Let me tell you, my family immigrated to here from India some 55-60 years ago (I'm only a fourth Indian) and they fucking love it here. Like not in a million years would they return to live in Bangalore. For groups coming from third world countries this place is the best shot they'll ever have at having a decent life. Is this country perfect? No, but no country is. And don't even start with that oh blah blah blah European countries have this and that. The bottom line is that every country has weaknesses. For example in a lot of Western Europe you're subjected to socialism and more stringent encroachment on your rights, i.e. The Netherlands. You don't get any of that shit here in the states, because no one is giving handouts over here. For the most part you're on your own here, and everything has a cost. That's what makes this country run the way it does and for some reason some people can't fucking deal with it. That's the beauty of this country, if you work hard enough you can literally achieve anything. The sky's the limit.

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Jun 21, 2017

Actually the edge of the solar system is the current limit. America has gotten that far.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Jun 21, 2017
heister:

Actually the edge of the solar system is the current limit. America has gotten that far.

But, but, but Denmark...

Jun 21, 2017

Encroachment on your rights in Netherlands? Que? That's a first.
Socialism models in Scandinavia are a bad thing? Tell me more about how Sweden, Norway, Denmark, etc. are unproductive societies.
It's the best shot at having a better life for a third worldie, especially from India?

Firstly, for Indians, a major number of them tend to migrate to the Middle East and the UK rather than the US, simply because the USA does not welcome immigrants as much as European countries do. Truth is, Asians tend to focus more on obtaining a world class education for their kids, which is why they try to prep their kids for HS in the US itself and hope that they make it into a top university (and the USA has (had until severe AA took over) arguably the best universities in the world). Asians always want to gun for the best education if they can. In comparison, Middle Easterns and other third worldies choose European nations primarily to misuse their generous welfare systems.

Socialism models in Scandinavia are able to provide for a major share of the population's needs, thus allowing them to focus on actually having a life rather than staying focused on paying debts and making ends meet. Even after the huge rounds of immigration (which are being curtailed so as to take only top talent), the socialist models are able to support themselves. Usually, it is observed that immigrants who settle in Scandinavia either settle there and integrate well - to the point of being more productive than the natives - or they can't cope up, can't afford the high standards of living and just get fed up and leave to someplace else in Europe.

I don't know about the encroachment of rights you talk about in the Netherlands, but the only right I honestly care about is the right to my privacy - even over my right to freedom of speech - simply because my private life matters to me, while I really don't bother with using my Freedom of Speech to protest fruitlessly against some policy, or to riot against the government and damage stuff in the process.

TBH, there are much better alternatives for people now to immigrate abroad from the 3rd world, but most choose not to, simply because a.) USA is an English speaking country - easier to integrate as compared with France where they'll need to learn the language and customs, b.) bragging rights that are largely irrelevant, c.) companies' locations, d.) top universities, and most Asian immigrants place a huge focus on a US education. Chalmers or KTH cannot compete with Harvard, duh.

GoldenCinderblock: "I keep spending all my money on exotic fish so my armor sucks. Is it possible to romance multiple females? I got with the blue chick so far but I am also interested in the electronic chick and the face mask chick."

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Jun 21, 2017

...It's understood that socially progressive countries are the most restrictive. I mean that's not even debated, it's a fact. Second, when did I say anything about productivity? Third, I don't know why you're trying to tell me about the landscape for Indian immigration...I'm fucking Indian dude, I go to India at least once a year and trust me when I say most Indians on the lower end of the caste system (The ones washing their clothes in the alleys) would kill to be here.

Jun 21, 2017

Ohh, so you want me to rely on your lone datapoint vis-a-vis the millions of datapoints generated by a number of Indians moving to the ME and UK? Cool bro....now drive the cab safely Sanjay.

Second, the point was not about productivity, but rather about socialism. Most people criticize socialist models as being a drain on society and leading to unproductivity.

Third, ok, so you mean to imply that social progressiveness leads to more restriction on society? Please explain why the model is called "progressive" then. Give me examples of restrictions in Netherlands that you wouldn't find in other countries. Go on. Most likely its going to be about some pointless niche aspect of the law that no one really cares to bother with. The only restrictions I see in socially progressive countries are placed on corporations - which may in turn stifle growth indirectly.

Oh, and I can clearly relate to an Indian, coming from an Asian non-Chinese/Jap/Korean background myself. And I would've killed to have studied in the US myself. But live in the US with the money I have? I'd rather raise my kids in the UK, or spend my single life in Dubai or Singapore (both of which are highly restrictive societies with higher CoLs).

GoldenCinderblock: "I keep spending all my money on exotic fish so my armor sucks. Is it possible to romance multiple females? I got with the blue chick so far but I am also interested in the electronic chick and the face mask chick."

Jun 21, 2017

Yeah, I don't get how the Netherlands has more stringent encroachment on your rights as it's one of the most socially progressive countries on the planet.

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Jun 21, 2017

Socially progressive countries and their laws by nature encroach on individuals' rights the most. Like, that's not even something that's controversial.

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Jun 21, 2017

Far left politically = super restrictive on social rights. I mean it's basic political theory man. The Dutch as a whole are pretty far to the left.

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Jun 21, 2017

Can you tell me what you define as "social rights" and give me examples as to how countries like the Netherlands are "super restrictive" on said social rights? Currently you are making a statement with no context.

Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

Can you tell me what you define as "social rights" and give me examples as to how countries like the Netherlands are "super restrictive" on said social rights? Currently you are making a statement with no context.

For one, there are "hate speech" laws that are actually not-so-veiled attempts at crushing free speech. One of the leading Dutch presidential candidates has been prosecuted numerous times for what would be considered in the United States not-so-extreme positions on Islam and immigration. In the United States, free speech is the "first right." Without it there is no true freedom. I'd say that in most of Europe, there is no actual freedom--just the outward appearance of freedom.

Jun 21, 2017

I tend to agree with you regarding hate speech laws but I can understand why a continent that went through Hitler has such laws.

Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

I tend to agree with you regarding hate speech laws but I can understand why a continent that went through Hitler has such laws.

Then why does Canada have hate speech laws and now gender pronoun laws? And why do hate speech laws attack people for criticizing 21st century Nazism (Islam)? That's actually incredibly ironic--get prosecuted for pointing out that Islam is fascist and virulently anti-Semitic.

Jun 21, 2017

Canada is basically Europe, except they're just stuck in North America. I am familiar with your views on Islam, most people would disagree that it is 21st century Nazism, especially considering the different sects and nuances within the religion. If you want to contend that Wahhabism, the type of Islam espoused by Trump's favorite Saudi Arabian buddies, is 21st century Nazism then I would be more inclined to agree. Additionally, these laws don't restrict hate speech to referring to Muslims, I imagine most of these were put in place with Jewish people in mind, it is just in vogue to hate Muslims at the moment.

Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

Canada is basically Europe, except they're just stuck in North America. I am familiar with your views on Islam, most people would disagree that it is 21st century Nazism, especially considering the different sects and nuances within the religion. If you want to contend that Wahhabism, the type of Islam espoused by Trump's favorite Saudi Arabian buddies, is 21st century Nazism then I would be more inclined to agree. Additionally, these laws don't restrict hate speech to referring to Muslims, I imagine most of these were put in place with Jewish people in mind, it is just in vogue to hate Muslims at the moment.

And I passionately disagree with your (wrong) position on Islam. In Europe and Canada I could be fined or jailed for correctly interpreting Islam for what it is--fascism, homophobia, misogyny, bigotry, anti-Semitism, etc. The position of culturally suicidal leftists (similar to yourself) in Canada and Europe is that you disagree with me; therefore, I should be silenced at the barrel of the gun (government). This is exactly what most in the American left would have. Thank God that there are still some true liberals in the Democratic party left that would defend my right to dissent from the crowd.

Jun 21, 2017

I don't want to turn this into an Islam debate. I will say though that I generally disagree with hate speech laws and your comment on me being a "culturally suicidal leftist" is hilarious.

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Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

I will say though that I generally disagree with hate speech laws

Therein lies the rub. Most on the left "generally agree" with free speech, except in very narrow instances, which when taken in aggregate tend to just be viewpoint restriction.

Jun 21, 2017

Dude free speech itself is restricted so we are just talking about extent. One can't yell "bomb!" in an airport and claim free speech. I think if someone incited violence against a particular group of people then they should be prosecuted, "kill all Muslims" would be exercising your free speech but I don't think this should be protected. You can look at this as viewpoint restriction but this is an instance in which I agree with there being a law restricting such speech.

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Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

Dude free speech itself is restricted so we are just talking about extent. One can't yell "bomb!" in an airport and claim free speech. I think if someone incited violence against a particular group of people then they should be prosecuted, "kill all Muslims" would be exercising your free speech but I don't think this should be protected. You can look at this as viewpoint restriction but this is an instance in which I agree with there being a law restricting such speech.

Calling for people to kill other people or to commit certain acts of violence is already illegal in the U.S. and isn't part of "hate speech" laws.

Jun 21, 2017

Well that's my point, that is the type of restriction of free speech I am behind.

p.s. I view all major western religions as homophobic and bigoted, a woman still can't be a priest in the catholic church, gays are still seen as sinners who need to repent lest they burn in hell. What you are discussing is violence and laws discriminating against such groups, but I view that as a byproduct of backwards countries (with the exception of wahhabist Saudi Arabia, they are rich and give no fucks about their outright hate) that have yet to progress. I can likely cite Christian nations with similar anti-gay, misogynistic laws as Saudi Arabia though. Yet you wouldn't ascribe that to their religion, it doesn't fit your narrative.

Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

Well that's my point, that is the type of restriction of free speech I am behind.

p.s. I view all major western religions as homophobic and bigoted, a woman still can't be a priest in the catholic church, gays are still seen as sinners who need to repent lest they burn in hell. What you are discussing is violence and laws discriminating against such groups, but I view that as a byproduct of backwards countries (with the exception of wahhabist Saudi Arabia, they are rich and give no fucks about their outright hate) that have yet to progress. I can likely cite Christian nations with similar anti-gay, misogynistic laws as Saudi Arabia though. Yet you wouldn't ascribe that to their religion, it doesn't fit your narrative.

Believing that gays will not go to heaven (that's actually not what the Bible says, as an aside, since Christianity is not a works-based religion) is not the same as believing gays should be murdered with the protection and even promulgation of the state. Who the Catholic Church hires as its priests is of no concern to me; what women are forced to wear in public due to fear of violence from their male family members does concern me--and should concern the state. What one believes and what the state is empowered (or not empowered) to do are radically different.

Jun 21, 2017

I understand that it is of no concern to you, doesn't make it not fundamentally misogynistic. As for your comment on what the state is doing, I agree. Many majority Muslim countries have anti-gay laws and commit violence against gays, many majority Christian countries do as well. I see both of these instances as backward beliefs, partly spurred on by religion in general. For your point you see the laws in these Muslim countries as a fundamental indictment against Islam (btw, I am against ALL religion, period), can you then say the laws in these Christian countries are a fundamental indictment against Christianity?

Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

I understand that it is of no concern to you, doesn't make it not fundamentally misogynistic. As for your comment on what the state is doing, I agree. Many majority Muslim countries have anti-gay laws and commit violence against gays, many majority Christian countries do as well. I see both of these instances as backward beliefs, partly spurred on by religion in general. For your point you see the laws in these Muslim countries as a fundamental indictment against Islam (btw, I am against ALL religion, period), can you then say the laws in these Christian countries are a fundamental indictment against Christianity?

The only places with draconian anti-gay laws in the Christian world are in deeply impoverished African countries where the average person can't even read the Bible, let alone interpret it with any kind of accuracy. There is no moral equivalency to Iran--a well-educated, former superpower--and the Congo. There is no polling data that suggest hundreds of millions of Christians support terrorism as we have with Islam.

Jun 21, 2017

Point taken, but most Muslim countries are poor just like the African ones. Russia isn't impoverished nor is it an African country, they have anti-gay laws. Ghanaians and Nigerians have no problem reading and are virulently Christian (in Nigeria's case its a 50/50 Muslim Christian split), they have anti-gay laws. Historically, Christian nations (like Spain) were more restrictive to other religions than the Ottoman Empire, which was Muslim. My point is not to absolve any party of their malice, but nuance is necessary.

Jun 21, 2017

"In Holland, you can smoke weed whilst fucking a hooker...in front of a cop. How dare Holland not be called the true land of the free?"

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Jun 22, 2017

Jim Jefferies gets a little too political for me recently. his earlier work was great, but the moment Trump came into play, his creativity fell off a cliff. I have this ongoing conspiracy him and Samantha Bee are the same person in different costumes.

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Jun 21, 2017

Sure, I mean I didn't do liberal arts in school so I'm unfamiliar with that but I suppose on premise it makes sense. I would also hardly call them "extreme far left" on a global spectrum. I suppose for me I don't really care to discriminate against anyone in the name of freedom of speech or expression as frankly I just don't care enough to do so but in a country where euthanasia, prostitution are permitted with very practical laws on soft drugs I think you are afforded a fair amount of freedom. Additionally, the fact that Wilders, who is a POS, was even a thing would seem to indicate that you're allowed to make an asshole of yourself as much as you want.

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Jun 21, 2017

Dude honestly, you can't call America racist and then site a handful of countries that are 99% white as being less racist. All of those countries are way more racist than America they just don't have to deal with Mexicans and Black people. Fact.

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Jun 21, 2017

As a minority international student in the US, I agree 100%.

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Jun 21, 2017

Mexicans should just take their tacos with them when you guys kick them out and I think the US would seriously reconsider it's position.

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Jun 21, 2017

The amount of garbage in every major US city makes one think it's a second-tier country.

Jun 22, 2017

Go to DC, and you'll change your mind. Downtown areas can be a little nasty, but no where near as bad as NYC.

Jun 22, 2017

It depends what you want out of life. If you are highly ambitious, America is the place to be. If you are happy to be middle class, you can get that standard of living working fewer hours in other countries.

Most indices of this sort put America as tier 2 after northern Europe and Switzerland but I think the immigration statistics speak for themselves.

Jun 21, 2017

Here's an interesting article for those in this thread sucking the proverbial d*ck of Europe:

"EU court: Vaccines can be blamed for illness without scientific evidence"

http://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/21/new-dark-age-e...
Study linked from the article: "Four times as many groundbreaking discoveries per capita occur in the U.S. than in Europe"

https://academic.oup.com/spp/article-abstract/doi/...

Jun 21, 2017

Is it really fair to use one court ruling as evidence against the reality that Europe has less gun crime, cheaper higher education, and better healthcare for people who aren't upper-middle class+? Agree on the innovation point though.

Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

Is it really fair to use one court ruling as evidence against the reality that Europe has less gun crime, cheaper higher education, and better healthcare for people who aren't upper-middle class+? Agree on the innovation point though.

Europe doesn't have "better healthcare"--this myth has been busted and discussed ad nausem. It has cheaper higher education because it restricts access and, by the way, you get what you pay for--U.S. universities are by far better, on average, than European universities.

Jun 21, 2017

I suppose it depends on what you define as "better healthcare", I think at the top America has the best healthcare in the world, but access to healthcare matters and America is lagging behind almost every other developed economy as far as access goes. Cancer is the biggest cause of bankruptcy in this country for a reason. I don't think anyone would disagree that the healthcare cost structure in this country is ridiculous. In many instances higher education is 3-5x (maybe more?) expensive in the U.S. than in Europe, you said "you get what you pay for". Do you believe U.S. higher education is 3-5x better than Europe's higher education?

Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

I suppose it depends on what you define as "better healthcare", I think at the top America has the best healthcare in the world, but access to healthcare matters and America is lagging behind almost every other developed economy as far as access goes. Cancer is the biggest cause of bankruptcy in this country for a reason. I don't think anyone would disagree that the healthcare cost structure in this country is ridiculous. In many instances higher education is 3-5x (maybe more?) expensive in the U.S. than in Europe, you said "you get what you pay for". Do you believe U.S. higher education is 3-5x better than Europe's higher education?

You either pay it through higher taxes or through student debt. There is no free lunch. The U.S. university system is overwhelmingly better than the overall European university system--access, R&D, Nobel laureates, etc. I'm not really sure how to define that in terms of x times better than Europe. But with the vast community college system in the United States there is zero reason at all whatsoever why a student should get buried in student loan debt. Those that do are making a conscious decision to attend expensive private schools or out of state schools. In Virginia, you can complete the first half of college for under $11,000 at the community college level and then gain automatic admission to a full 4-year in-state university with a 3.0 GPA or better.

Jun 21, 2017

The rich pay higher taxes in Europe and they keep the cost of education down through various measures. For the middle class, it is most definitely a better deal. As for how to define x times, you can look at income, # of nobel laureates etc. France seems to be the world leader in math without charging $60,000 a year for university. I understand one does not HAVE to get buried in student debt but let's compare apples to apples here. Comparing the cost of attending community college to the cost of attending Stockholm School of Economics is disingenuous. The question is, does the increased quality of education in America justify how much more expensive Vanderbilt is than SSE (which is free for EU citizens and like 11,000 a yr. for everyone else)?

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Jun 21, 2017

No way man, European universities aren't even close to American universities in sciences. MIT, Princeton, Cal Tech, and Berkeley are absolute power houses. I mean there is just no comparison. I agree with your logic though, our schools are way too expensive. But at the same time, most of our top schools are private universities so we can't do anything about it.

Jun 21, 2017

The US spends more dollars per capita on healthcare than any country in the world, and has no measurably better outcomes to show for it.

That's shitty (or at least terribly inefficient) healthcare if you ask me.

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Jun 23, 2017
LeveragedTiger:

The US spends more dollars per capita on healthcare than any country in the world, and has no measurably better outcomes to show for it.

That's shitty healthcare (or at least terrible inefficient) if you ask me.

Ignoring what Americans pay out-of-pocket or via insurance one point that is seldom mentioned when people compare America to Scandinavian countries is that America is terrible at spending money and getting an ROI (not necessarily in monetary terms).

Scandinavian countries tax the hell out of you but they are wise about how they spend tax dollars whereas in America I suspect a large part of tax spending is wasted on bullshit initiatives and or wasted away via pork barrel spend.

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Jun 22, 2017

when I referenced quality of healthcare, I meant quality of doctors, new medicines, innovative therapies.

our system is horribly inefficient, and because our country has awful habits (sedentary, overly processed diet, etc.), outcomes look shitty.

if we could somehow preserve our R&D capabilities and quality of doctors while engendering better behavior for people and figured out a better way for this to be financed (instead of giving people a blank check), we'd be better. our healthcare spending is horrible, but the practitioners and therapies we have are great. it's sad really, we're so wasteful.

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Jun 23, 2017

@thebrofessor I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at but I think it is. People (mostly Liberals) HATE being told to take responsibility for oneself. If you have a rare disease or cancer not of your own doing I get that.

However...

How many Americans have no one to fault but themselves for their poor eating habits, lack of exercising, etc that causes diseases and poor health? I'd venture to guess quite a bit of them.

I remember seeing an obese man complaining how Obamacare is keeping him alive. He was very loud and vocal about it. My question to Mr. Fatman is why don't you go lose weight and try to live a healthier life? Maybe then you're medical cost wouldn't cost you an arm and a leg.

Call me heartless but using tax dollars to keep people like Mr. Fatman alive and breathing is a waste of money and generates a negative ROI. Mr. Fatman is better off dead than alive IMO.

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Jun 22, 2017

it's not a political thing my man, most people shun personal responsibility. I live in the south (a liberal city in a Trump state), and fatties don't wanna give up their bojangles on game day, their chicken biscuit breakfasts, and their fatback at thanksgiving. they'll vote red right republican all day long, but this is an AMERICAN issue, not a political issue.

interestingly enough, it's the liberal cities which are healthiest yet clamor for the very types of programs that helps the proverbial fat lazy southerner with type 2 diabetes.

I'm 100% with you, united healthcare should pay me for every PR I hit on bench press or every 10 seconds I spend at 180bpm while working out, but instead my premiums go towards a wasteful system.

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Jun 21, 2017

how much can you bench my dude?

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Jun 22, 2017

about tree fiddy

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Jun 21, 2017

nice usage! 10/10 sb'd all your posts on this thread just for that

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Jun 24, 2017

I agree with the inefficient part, but saying we have nothing to show for all the spending is wrong in my book. To me the easiest way to judge the subjective areas (education, healthcare, etc.) is to look at where the money goes. Our millionaires/ billionaires and presidents don't go off to Europe to get most health procedures (some exceptions for legality , aka Kobe), while we get all kinds of wealthy individuals and royalty from other countries to come to the US and use our hospitals. I live in Houston and it seems like at least a few times a month I will hear about some Middle Eastern royal family member coming to Houston for the med center.

To me the US is by far the number one country in the world and will remain at that level until you start seeing our best, brightest, and wealthiest heading to other countries for education/healthcare or to start a life.

Jun 21, 2017

Cheaper healthcare, better education, etc. is just so...mythological. Coming from a family of immigrants, they couldn't believe some Americans actually thought that America's education system, healthcare system, and whatnot are worse than Europe's.

Jun 21, 2017

Let's revisit the Islamic state of Europe and how great it is in a decade. Place is a museum with irrelevant inhabitants.

They tax the shit out of their people because the US provides their defense and they are still running a deficit. France has major economic and structural issues. Nordic states aren't much better. And we are talking the last 40-50 years. Communist Russia lasted as long and failed.

And Europe is amazing is you're gay or a feminist. Free speech is limited. They isolate muslims (the us does a far better job of integrating them). And by Europe you only mean a handful of Western European states. Bunch of Eastern European countries have restrictions on gays, as does Italy and Spain.

Go and try and start a business in these countries. Or not pay 50% or more in tax.

Have people actually travel to Europe? Shit.

Jun 21, 2017

Islamic state of Europe - yes I'm sure the Muslims will overrun the continent and form a caliphate, sharia law will be enacted. This isn't alarmist bullshit at all. A few knife & car attacks will really change the paradigm.

On the economic issues - things could change in 50 years and these Scandinavian/ western European countries could need major economic reform but let's look at annual deficit as a % of GDP (2016 estimated figures). Germany runs a surplus, France's debt is 3.4% of GDP, UK is at 3.9%, Italy is at 2.6%, Switzerland is at a surplus, Sweden is at .4%, Denmark is at 2.5%, Iceland is at a surplus, Norway is at a surplus, Spain is at 4.1%, Ireland is at .8%, the U.S. is at 2.9%, Australia is at 2.1%. While I couldn't find confirmed figures I am sure those only differ by a few basis points. From this it seems their fiscal situations are no where near as bad as you painted it and the Nordic countries absolutely outclass the United States fiscally while providing much better standard of living for the average citizen. While I agree with you regarding military spending, our country has piled money into that aspect of spending and largely ignored key infrastructure and entitlement programs that would no doubt make the standard of living for the average citizen better. Somehow Australia spends less of their GDP as a percentage on healthcare and they have universal healthcare. The structural issues with youth unemployment and lack of income mobility is an issue no doubt. But I imagine if you ask the average middle class individual if they would trade the possibility of becoming rich for a stable and relatively worry free middle class lifestyle they'd take the stability that Western Europe, Scandinavia, Australia, and Canada provide.

No one was discussing Eastern Europe, that's an obvious straw man. Many people are saying Western Europe, Scandinavia, Canada, and Australia have a better standard of living for the average citizen than the United States. They seem to be using that tax money well. I don't see how this can currently be disputed, perhaps 50 years from now that won't be the case but let's deal in the present.

Completely agree on your assessment of integration in the region, they're used to having homogenous societies unlike the U.S. but I imagine that will improve over time.

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Jun 21, 2017

You do realize Europe includes Easter Europe. It isn't a straw man to expect precise language.

You're other points I decided to ignore and not read because I don't want the detritus you have clogging me synapse.

Stay sleepy

Jun 21, 2017

I realize Europe includes Eastern Europe, I don't see how that is relevant as individuals (such as I) have specifically cited Western Europe, Scandinavia, Australia, and Canada in comparisons to the United States. To willfully ignore this in favor of whatever bullshit you're trying to push is the epitome of @TNA. Have a good weekend man, I know I will.

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Jun 23, 2017
TNA:

Let's revisit the Islamic state of Europe and how great it is in a decade. Place is a museum with irrelevant inhabitants.

They tax the shit out of their people because the US provides their defense and they are still running a deficit. France has major economic and structural issues. Nordic states aren't much better. And we are talking the last 40-50 years. Communist Russia lasted as long and failed.

And Europe is amazing is you're gay or a feminist. Free speech is limited. They isolate muslims (the us does a far better job of integrating them). And by Europe you only mean a handful of Western European states. Bunch of Eastern European countries have restrictions on gays, as does Italy and Spain.

Go and try and start a business in these countries. Or not pay 50% or more in tax.

Have people actually travel to Europe? Shit.

TNA as a minority Muslim I fucking agree with you (shocker)! The Nordic states are struggling and if they aren't now, they soon will. Illegal migrants from the Middle East and North Africa run towards Germany and places like Sweden because those governments are stupid enough to take these people in and give them welfare and aid.

With the downturn in oil which will continue it wouldn't shock me if Norway for example was forced to cut back because programs that they do have were sustainable because of high oil prices and high taxes. Economic strain and the downturn will easily put pressures on the programs they have. Add in illegal migrants who didn't have much in their own countries to begin with will be a further parasite that forever sucks the tits of Europeans until their nipples are chapped and bleeding.

France took in Muslims and I bet they must secretly hate it as you can't even venture into the burbs without being harassed and heckled. I mean even in Germany the bitch ass of a Chancellor had the audacity to blame women for being "sexy" instead of putting her put down on outrageous behavior from Sunni Muslim shitheads.

Also why the fuck in the 21st Century do you have to explain to men that it is NOT ok to hit women or grope them in public?!?! Are you fucking kidding me!

/rant

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Jun 21, 2017

"The Nordic states are struggling and if they aren't now, they soon will. Illegal migrants from the Middle East and North Africa run towards Germany and places like Sweden because those governments are stupid enough to take these people in and give them welfare and aid."

These immigrants are trying to make a better life for themselves much like any other large immigrant population of the past. There is no evidence that the Nordic states are struggling, their fiscal position is much better than the United States' fiscal position, if you have actual evidence that says otherwise then present that. If you have evidence as to increased violent crimes such as rape, robbery, or murder since the influx of Muslims into France then present that evidence, we can all make proclamations and yell a lot, doesn't mean those proclamations are correct. Facts, let's try dealing in those rather than hot takes.

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Jun 21, 2017

Inshallah my brother.

Germany has done a shit job integrating Turks who are seen as second class citizens after over a decade in Germany. Yet Merkel the pig thinks millions more will magically weave into the fabric of society.

IMO, is happily convert when the caliphate rolls through. Western liberal society is heinous in the most extreme form. Gender fluidity? Yeah, time for an upheaval. Weakness can never survive and the west is The epitome of what happens when the lions have been killed and the prey runs free.

Jun 22, 2017

Lol Europe. Wait 50 years when Sharia Law rules Europe and FGM is mandatory.

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Jun 23, 2017
worklogin:

Lol Europe. Wait 50 years when Sharia Law rules Europe and FGM is mandatory.

They may not even need to wait 50 years. As uncomfortable of a topic as this may be...Sunni Muslims are notorious for having more children than they're capable of taking care of. They do this on purpose as having lots of kids is used as a method to take over.

Palestinian women have large number of children as a way of overtaking the non-Muslim population within Israel. Possibly one of the reasons why Israel doesn't want a single state solution either.

Overpopulation of Africans and Sunni Muslims in Europe and Latinos in America is going to be the cause of future strife in these regions.

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Jun 21, 2017

Europe is an aging and dying population, white America is as well. Europe is not doing well with integrating the next era of productive workers, America (generally) is. Hispanics and other immigrants will prove beneficial to the American economy for decades to come. To think that bringing in young workers who will have children and pay taxes into the system and keep the working population large enough to finance entitlements is somehow a bad thing is so far divorced from economics I don't even know where to begin. Of course you generally just make claims with no supporting evidence or statistics to back them up so I'm not surprised at your implications here. Look towards Japan if you want to see the result of a population that is progressively getting older as time passes coupled with a ridiculously restrictive immigration system.

Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

Hispanics and other immigrants will prove beneficial to the American economy for decades to come. To think that bringing in young workers who will have children and pay taxes into the system and keep the working population large enough to finance entitlements is somehow a bad thing is so far divorced from economics I don't even know where to begin.

A cursory observation of California would suggest otherwise. 3/4 of the budget goes to public K-12 education, health and human services (i.e. healthcare for the poor and welfare), and corrections. Public schools are nearly all hispanic, bulk of health and human services recipients are hispanic, and the bulk of corrections cases are hispanic. Hispanic / illegal immigrants typically compete for jobs on the lower end of the spectrum, which means they don't generate a lot of tax revenue and also displace poor whites and blacks who will likely end up on government assistance as a result. In short, hispanic immigrants cost CA billions every year.

This idea that we can just import millions of culturally disparate third world citizens cart blanche to "finance our entitlements" needs to die. Immigration, including hispanic immigration, can certainly be a positive, but it needs to be done in a controlled, careful manner and the new immigrants should be gently guided down a path to assimilation, not dumped into glorified favelas and sent to schools where they won't even learn English.

BobTheBaker:

Look towards Japan if you want to see the result of a population that is progressively getting older as time passes coupled with a ridiculously restrictive immigration system.

Isn't Japan one of the cleanest, safest, best run countries on the planet?

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Jun 21, 2017

Japan is safe and clean, they are also facing negative economic growth and perpetual recession and have been battling deflation for over two decades, that country is in a literal death spiral. You single out California, which has issues that go far beyond immigration regarding their budget and ignore Texas, perhaps the most economically robust state in this country. Why has illegal immigration economically sunk California (I say that ironically since California is one of the best states in the union) while Texas is booming? I would appreciate some data linking California's economic issues to immigration, I'll wait patiently while you locate that data.

p.s. It has been cited numerous times that illegals pay more into the tax system than they take out yet you continue to push this "drain on the state" narrative. Link the data that supports your point if you have it. Also, you ignore the 2nd/ 3rd generation effects, immigrant kids are more likely to go to and graduate college than native-born Americans.

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Jun 22, 2017

Everyone knows it's you ISIS. We may be second-tier after all, but you're more third-tier than Rutgers (if that's possible).

Jun 22, 2017

For those saying Europe is less racist than the US, I have one question: Have you ever seen an Italian or Spanish soccer match where there is a black player on the opposing team? The crowd is often calling them monkeys and throwing bananas at them.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130886&page=1

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Jun 21, 2017

Yea, idk where that myth comes from. Spain & Italy are particularly egregious in Western Europe and Eastern Europe is even worse.

Jun 22, 2017

Why are white countries held to such high standards in terms of racism? I never understood this. The history used to justify this is so selective.

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Jun 23, 2017
PeterMBA2018:

Why are white countries held to such high standards in terms of racism? I never understood this. The history used to justify this is so selective.

This. And why are there so many liberal White apologists out there?

Jun 21, 2017
PeterMBA2018:

Why are white countries held to such high standards in terms of racism? I never understood this. The history used to justify this is so selective.

We let them do it to us. We should never be aggressive about our race, but there's nothing wrong with being a little assertive. The Moors conquered much of Europe and took Spanish and French slaves-- same with Hannibal of Carthage. That doesn't change the fact that The Alhambra is a beautiful castle. Meanwhile, most of our ancestors were effective slaves as European peasants. Our ancestors had a 100 or 200 year head start over those who suffered chattel slavery, but it wasn't THAT big of a head start.

Look, slavery has thankfully been dead for 150 years-- about five or six generations. Jim Crow has been dead for two generations. And if you go far back enough in history and your last name isn't Windsor, most of us can find a majority of ancestors who were owned by someone else. Either on a plantation or a feudal estate.

There is nothing wrong with asserting that European history and culture is as legitimate as (but not more legitimate than) other cultures, that our ancestors had their own battles and struggles, or that modus ponens, exponential functions, or sine curves aren't Eurocentric mathematical or logical devices subject to challenge on cultural grounds.

Bottom line: don't attack other races or cultures or heritages, and gracefully and respectfully stand up for yours if it is attacked.

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Jun 21, 2017

Who is "them"? Define assertive. Who cares about what happened hundreds of years ago? Look at the difference in generational wealth vs. the difference in income among whites and minorities in the United States, the compounding effect is real and stating a 200 year head start isn't THAT big of a head start is simply not true. Who cares when slavery ended? I mark the late 60s as the point in which this country started to really started to become equal opportunity, and that is just in the letter of the law. It is 2017 and there are still studies that show employers discriminate on who they offer interviews based on what race the name sounds like (Jamal is less likely to get an interview than John given identical credentials) so let's not act like the wave of a pen brought equal opportunity, it's a work in progress and we've made great progress for sure though. It's cool that your ancestors may have been feudal servants in 14th century Germany but black people are being told "go back to Africa" to this day. There is a segment of the population that sees these people as not American or lesser despite their ancestors likely being in this nation for 100-200 more years than many white immigrants. I mean, imagine an Italian-American whose grandparents came here in 1910 telling a black dude whose ancestors date back to the 1700s to "go back to Africa".

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Jun 21, 2017
BobTheBaker:

Who is "them"? Define assertive. Who cares about what happened hundreds of years ago? Look at the difference in generational wealth vs. the difference in income among whites and minorities in the United States, the compounding effect is real and stating a 200 year head start isn't THAT big of a head start is simply not true.

But there are a lot of other people who haven't gotten that 300 year-- or even 150 year-- head start and they ARE advancing. Asians, Latinos, Eastern Europeans (who really suffered under Communism), all kinds of immigrants from countries that are much poorer on average than what abject poverty looks like in the US.

It's cool that your ancestors may have been feudal servants in 14th century Germany but black people are being told "go back to Africa" to this day. There is a segment of the population that sees these people as not American or lesser despite their ancestors likely being in this nation for 100-200 more years than many white immigrants.

I haven't seen that, personally. I'm sure it happens. I'm sure more than half of the people saying it are drunk and the other half are deranged.

That said, I think that, when faced with black nationalism it isn't inappropriate to say that Zimbabwe has is engaged in the Black Nationalism experiment and that those who desire such policies may be happier there than in the West.

I don't think it's wrong to stand up to racial nationalism or point out how the experiment is going in other countries.

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Jun 22, 2017

you and I could go on for days about issues affecting blacks (remember, I'm not 100%, mixed black/white), but I tend to agree with you, discrimination is absolutely real and will take a while to fix, but these aren't things that can be legislated (affirmative action is not the answer), these are cultural changes. blacks need to stop naming their kids made up garbage like shaniquitha, and non blacks need to teach themselves not to have a visceral reaction of fear when they see a young black male not in a suit.

HOWEVER, I tend to agree with IP that we don't need to be militant about this, but more towards the "assertive" end. I mentioned in a thread a while back that there will always be racists, but you should focus on things you can change, not what is outside one's control. you can control your attitude, you can control how you carry yourself, you can control how you dress, what you cannot control is who you might meet in an interview (george wallace versus jesse jackson).

what did we want as black people going through all of the civil rights stuff? right to vote, right to own property, equal opportunity all else being equal, access to education/housing/food/etc. The first two were legislated, the last 2 are technically legislated but here's the rub: socioeconomic status of parents is highly correlated with what the children's will eventually be. due to the history of blacks in america, a greater share of them are poor, and therefore have worse access to education, housing, transportation, and so on. these problems compound aside from the few who make it "out the hood," my grandfather being one of them. this compounding is the source of all of the issues we have today. since generations are not quickly forming & dying, progress seems to crawl along at a snail's pace and we think it's awful. problems that took centuries to engender don't take weeks or years to fix.

these are problems we want to fix overnight, but we just cannot, because these types of widespread problems don't need blunt force solutions, they need incremental progress. how does one do this? for starters, volunteer for your local big brother/boys & girls club. if a minority child has no positive role models at home, give them a positive role model, maybe they make it out of the hood. furthermore, teach your children and your children's friends about equality. my family is still mostly skeptical of white people, and much of the black community feels this way. look, you can't change history and you can't change that your mom had you at 18, but you can change your thought process of whites being the devil. and whites? you can change your attitude about blacks. when you volunteer and meet children, you'll learn this fast. all kids think the same, they want to play. adults and their prejudices corrupt the youth.

I'm optimistic that, while this will be a multigenerational thing, my grandkids will wonder what all the fuss was about. have faith, my brotha.

in closing, let's not make this a race related thread, it's about Murica

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Jun 21, 2017

This in response to Illini:

I am not absolving the black community of their ills, there are plenty of issues they need to address. But at every single step of the way it seems our society has done nothing but exacerbate those ills, made it tougher to overcome those ills, or introduced those ills altogether. Many Asians we see as model minorities came here with middle class families and fathers who were already doctors, lawyers etc. which follows that their children would become highly educated and high earning. Even then, as of 2014 Asian-Americans (who on average earn the highest income in this country) still trail whites in wealth something like 68 cents to the dollar. The compounding effect is real. Comparing this to the average African-American is folly. Nigerians have the most graduate degrees as a percentage of their population in this country, I didn't overcome shit, my father was a highly educated lawyer and my mother was college educated as well before we stepped foot in this country. Same for most of my fellow Nigerians.

the myth of the model minority: https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/5/1/15426166...
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/19/...
In response to @thebrofessor

I agree with what you say but the difference in standard is part of the problem. A white guy with the same tats and piercings as a black guy may be looked at as a hipster while the black dude is looked at as a thug. This is from a fucking investigation in SAN FRANCISCO (a liberal bastion): Evidence also showed selective arresting practices, including a videotape of officers arresting a black woman just after allegedly refusing a drug sale offer from an Asian-American woman nearby, whom they did not arrest. Trust me, I love this country and I love the progress we've made, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. With that said, I know my situation, I don't make crass jokes at work, I always dress better than 90% of others in the office, I don't have any tattoos or piercings, I generally do not curse or raise my voice at the office while some of my non-minority counterparts sound like sailors, while some friends were coasting during my MSF I attained 3 different internships to give me the edge I thought necessary to get this job, I have never been arrested even for a minor misdemeanor and plan never to be. My father has always told me we are held to a higher standard, I have less room for error and I am aware of that. Luckily I don't have a jaded view, I hang out consistently with more white dudes than black ones, I don't dislike or blame anyone. But I will always, always, speak up when people push false narratives and behave as if black perception of racism is nothing but paranoia. A majority of Republicans believe discrimination against whites is a bigger issue than discrimination against blacks, think about that. Until people start becoming sympathetic progress will be extremely slow or nonexistent.

p.s. I definitely didn't want this to turn into a racial thread but notice it is always in response to someone else, it is what it is.

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Jun 22, 2017

no argument man, people pushing false narratives is toxic, blacks are held to a higher standard and it's not fair. more people ought to think like you and "rise up and overcome" instead of lamenting their circumstances

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Jun 26, 2017
thebrofessor:

you and I could go on for days about issues affecting blacks (remember, I'm not 100%, mixed black/white), but I tend to agree with you, discrimination is absolutely real and will take a while to fix, but these aren't things that can be legislated (affirmative action is not the answer), these are cultural changes. blacks need to stop naming their kids made up garbage like shaniquitha, and non blacks need to teach themselves not to have a visceral reaction of fear when they see a young black male not in a suit.

You're wrong. Race based affirmative action has had overwhelming positive effects, especially for college enrollment. One need only look at the effects after it is rolled back to see how important it is.

Jun 21, 2017

It's the same reason Western Europe, Scandinavia, Australia, Canada and the U.S. are held to higher standards for everything else. If you want to be the best and remain the best, judging yourself by the standards of Africa, Eastern Europe, or the Middle East isn't optimal.

Jun 22, 2017
BobTheBaker:

It's the same reason Western Europe, Scandinavia, Australia, Canada and the U.S. are held to higher standards for everything else. If you want to be the best and remain the best, judging yourself by the standards of Africa, Eastern Europe, or the Middle East isn't optimal.

Ok so white supremacy is bad unless it can be used to justify social criticism. Interesting point.

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Jun 23, 2017

America isn't second tier, that's fairly obvious. However, America has the potential to be so much more than it currently is. That's what is sad

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Jun 22, 2017

have faith GC, America is going through a Progressive Era pause in the economy much like we did at the turn of the century when autos, Irish, and Italians were taking jobs from everyone and Catholics were thought of as pariahs. these periods happen over and over again, but as long as we stay away from central planning I think we'll come out on the other side better than before.

While I share your feelings that things need to change (for me, the top things are primary education & cost of healthcare), I'm still glad we live in a country that allows people the freedom to say "HEY, AMERICA SUCKS," encourages this dialogue and rewards those who successfully challenge the status quo. the very definition of progress is realizing that you can be better and using trial & error to work through the changes. we've always progressed my man, we'll continue to do so

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Jun 23, 2017

Take it from an immigrant from Kenya (A country in East Africa and please don't call me African as I lose respect for most people who do that especially to tell me what qualities 54 countries have), America is definitely not second tier but there are some puzzling things about America that even after ten years, I think why?

1.) Healthcare in America is fucking great. I had surgery, it was efficient and well done BUT, the system is fucking atrocious. I have insurance and it was not cheap!
2.) Higher education is amazing but yet again who designed this loan system? Were the citizens sleeping when they started charging 50 grand for an education? Being an immigrant I truly did not realize what I was getting into.
3.) Fear: I genuinely feel Americans think that things that are issues really aren't. I came here legally and followed the procedure. I've been here 10 years and I'm a liberal but fucking hate this democrat and republican bullshit. I am also completely unphased by Muslims and illegal immigrants. Sorry to all but I just think it's not that big of an issue. Plus, I despise religion but I feel like the really big issues never get talked about. I feel there are far bigger issues to address but people seem to harbor the thought that the world is becoming some gigantic Islamic state and that makes me laugh. Plus most of these terror attacks are by citizens even in Europe.

On that note, I would be lying if I started screaming that America is all my dreams come true. I'm a nomad at heart and I have felt extreme joy and peace in the village that I've never felt here but I also have been enlightened in ways I couldn't be else where. I like the quality of life here but that's cause I love decently.

In all honesty, if you have some wealth, you can live decently anywhere.

Jun 24, 2017

OP, you probably got more monkey shits for complaining about the early ones than for any other reason.

It's internet reputation on a goddamn forum (even though a lovely one), it's not like they are going to impact your dick size or your income. Who cares..

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Jun 24, 2017

I wasn't complaining about the early monkey shits, I just thought that I said something wrong and was just trying to clear things up in case that was the reason why I was getting a bunch of MS in the first few minutes of the post being up.

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Jun 24, 2017
Jun 24, 2017
Jun 24, 2017

Let me hear you say, this shit is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

Jun 25, 2017
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Jul 12, 2017
Jul 12, 2017

WSO's COO (Chief Operating Orangutan) | My Linkedin

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