Israel attack on ships carrying humanitarian aid?

beatallica:

1. those were international waters 2. israel kept shooting even after a white flag was raised

Israel needs to sort itself out soon. Don't think obama cares too much about them either (he can't even be bothered to give a statement after this!). They may find themselves very very alone soon...

1. Yes let's wait till they can shoot at Israel from the water - great idea.
2. The IDF account (which you need, if nothing else than to balance out the al-jazeera/NTV version that seems to be taken by the MSM) is that the troops helicoptered onto the ship and were greeted by someone turning their own arms against them and all kinds of fun weapons. No "white flag" in that version.

Obama is between a rock and a hard place wrt Israel and Turkey - he wants the latter's support for a disengagement from Iraq but doesn't exactly want to piss off American Jewry. So yeah, no statement keeps both sides pissed off.

TheBenevolent:

one day, all of this will catch up with Israel, you can only oppress a people for so long.

I really would prefer to stay away from such a touchy subject, but that's a very interesting statement. You might wanna look up the history of israel. Good thing Jews have never been persecuted or oppressed right?

Oh and for the OP, read the article.. the knives and iron clubs are referring to weapons wielded by the "civillians".

dew2229:

you do realize you posted by far 2 of the most anti-semetic resources in the first place? obviously there is a strong bias in those articles against israel. what they fail to mention is that most relief ships are inspected because they often carry weapons to use on attack against civilians in israel, and that the only ship where people were killed/injured was the ship where people resisted from the start. and one article said they needed aid in the first place because israeli forces destroyed building in gaza... did it mention why they did? could it be because those buildings were housing terrorists and happened to be launching sites for rockets???

Yeah, good one. The BBC, possibly the world's most unbiased news source has definitely got it in for the Jews.

dew2229:

you do realize you posted by far 2 of the most anti-semetic resources in the first place? obviously there is a strong bias in those articles against israel. what they fail to mention is that most relief ships are inspected because they often carry weapons to use on attack against civilians in israel, and that the only ship where people were killed/injured was the ship where people resisted from the start. and one article said they needed aid in the first place because israeli forces destroyed building in gaza... did it mention why they did? could it be because those buildings were housing terrorists and happened to be launching sites for rockets???

The BBC is not anti-semitic, and after reading the entire Al-Jazeera article it seemed pretty unbiased to me. It presented both sides of the story and sticked to the facts, which is more than I can say of CNN or Fox News and the like.

This was probably the IDF responding to hostility from that ship, but the larger issue is the blockade on Gaza itself. It strikes me as a very inhumane and brutal thing to do... and Israel has no right to "search" ships in international waters, so the ships' civilians had the right to defend themselves.

I have nothing against Jews, but I do have something against a nation that oppresses, murders, and humiliates the people from whom they stole the very land on which they live. How do they expect the people of Gaza to survive without food, water, trade, etc? Yes a couple of rockets might slip in and be shot at Israeli cities, but most of those rockets don't kill anyone. The rockets which do hit populated areas end up "only" killing one or two people, and Israel automatically retaliates by killing dozens of Palestinians (including many children). Seems pretty unfair to me. Palestinians are fighting with sticks, stones, and makeshift rockets, while the Israelis fight with ultra high-tech weapons from the U.S... and the irony is that this is Palestinian land, not Israeli land.

dew2229:

you do realize you posted by far 2 of the most anti-semetic resources in the first place? obviously there is a strong bias in those articles against israel. what they fail to mention is that most relief ships are inspected because they often carry weapons to use on attack against civilians in israel, and that the only ship where people were killed/injured was the ship where people resisted from the start. and one article said they needed aid in the first place because israeli forces destroyed building in gaza... did it mention why they did? could it be because those buildings were housing terrorists and happened to be launching sites for rockets???

Maybe you get annoyed when the pro-immigration camp plays the race card to shut down the debate when they start losing. Or maybe when people arguing for the strengthening of affirmative action quotas play the race card when you cite evidence that looks inconvenient to their cause. Playing the anti-semite card on someone who is making an argument that you find inconvenient to Israel is exactly the same thing- and as with the other situations- it signals to everyone else watching it that you concede you don't have any other rational points to make in the debate.

Brown_Bateman:

Why the hell should the thread get locked? We're not babies here.

Seriously.

I am not going to get into the nitty gritty of this argument, but lets face it, the USA is not going to side against Israel. The most we would do is lightly condemn anything they do. The AIPAC is a strong lobbying group in this country and we are fighting 2 wars in Arab nations. As long as the USA is not going to come down against Israel then what incentive to they have to find a peace, not shoot people, whatever.

Europe will do what they always do, piss and moan and move on. As if France and the rest of Europe are any more friendly to Muslim individuals. The Arab world will be up in arms, but what are they going to do? The USA is operating in 2 (really 3 countries when you consider Pakistan) and the only strong nations are more than happy to turn a blind eye and keep making boat loads of cash selling the US and the rest of the world black gold.

I think this thread is fine and as long as it doesn't turn into an anti-semite bash fest it should be allowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_svg492Hkqo

the very best kids' tv show

and the sequel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFz8DwvJP6Q

edit: you really think that we can have peace when those people are educated from day1 to hate us and want to kill us or die trying??? be real! you're supposed to be intelligent. research the topic a bit before taking sides. usually there are two sides to each conflict.

Samari Gold:

Must see video that explains why the IDF opened fire. Every military reserves the right to defend its soldiers. And the blockade they are defending is LEGAL too--it is jointly operated between Israel and Egypt.

Lolz Israel needs to learn how to zerg they should play wow or halo 3 you never go in 1 at a time L2ZERG SCRUBZ

balbasur:

The problem is religion. End.

No, the problem is extremism. Religion itself is a good thing, unless it's a crackhead religion like some forms of Voodoo where you kill babies to move up in the organization, or unless you misinterpret the religion to the point where you interfere with others' lives.

balbasur:

The problem is religion. End.

AnthonyD1982:

Drago,

         How did I say the world is pro Israel? We sell a lot of weapons to Israel, they have a powerful lobby, it is one of the few pro USA countries in the middle east, thats why we support them. I frankly could careless about the whole situation and always find it annoying how whenever the topic is brought up vehement Israeli supporters come out. My statements were pretty un biased. 

       I can see both sides of the arguments and just thank god I live in neither of those countries. Plain fact is that there will never be peace. I do enjoy the fact that there is one nation more hated than the United States within the Muslim world. 

       Boys and girls, this is what happens when you allow biblical history to influence real issues. 

"The modern State of Israel has its historical and religious roots in the Biblical Land of Israel, also known as Zion, a concept central to Judaism since ancient times.121314 Political Zionism took shape in the late-19th century and the Balfour Declaration of 1917 formalized British policy preferring the establishment of a Jewish state. Following World War I, the League of Nations granted Great Britain the Mandate for Palestine and the responsibility for establishing "the Jewish national home" within it.[15]

In November 1947, the United Nations voted in favor of the partition of Palestine, proposing the creation of a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a UN-administered Jerusalem.[16] Partition was accepted by Zionist leaders but rejected by Arab leaders, leading to civil war. Israel declared independence on 14 May 1948 and neighboring Arab states attacked the next day. Since then, Israel has fought a series of wars with neighboring Arab states,17 and in consequence occupies territories, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip, beyond those delineated in the 1949 Armistice Agreements. Israel has signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, but efforts to resolve conflict with the Palestinians have so far only met with limited success and some of Israel's international borders remain in dispute."

          If I was Palestinian and the UN just decided to give a section of land that my people have had forever because the Old Testament says so you can be damn sure I would  be pissed. Try and see it from their point of view.

Oh, and just because a lot of Jews move to an area and then it magically becomes "Israel" doesn't lessen the fact that is was taken.

How would we all feel as Americans if the Mexican population kept growing in the USA and all of a sudden the UN declares the whole south part of Mexico because they historically had it. I am sure all the people in Texas would be fine with that. Get real. Jews migrated to their "biblical homeland" and they finally reached critical mass and got their country.

well, first off, there was always a jewish population there, despite numerous attempts over the centuries to evict all of them. secondly, most of the "palestinian" population isn't even native to the land. tens of thousands of laborers from neighboring countries were brought in by the turks during the late 19th and 20th centuries. so they stayed, gave themselves a new name, and associated their ancestors with the place. my family returned to israel in 1800. did you read mark twain's account from mid 19th century about the thriving indigenous population there?

"Mark Twain visited Israel in 1867, and published his impressions in Innocents Abroad. He described a desolate country – devoid of both vegetation and human population:

“….. A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent mournful expanse…. a desolation…. we never saw a human being on the whole route…. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”

He was amazed by the smallness of the city of Jerusalem:

“A fast walker could go outside the walls of Jerusalem and walk entirely around the city in an hour. I do not know how else to make one understand how small it is.”

And he described the Temple Mount thus:

“The mighty Mosque of Omar, and the paved court around it, occupy a fourth part of Jerusalem. They are upon Mount Moriah, where King Solomon’s Temple stood. This Mosque is the holiest place the Mohammedan knows, outside of Mecca. Up to within a year or two past, no christian could gain admission to it or its court for love or money. But the prohibition has been removed, and we entered freely for bucksheesh.”"

it was never theirs to begin with. sure, maybe a minority, but most have less right to be there than those mexicans you so love to talk about. i understand the anxiety of seeing your country (or region) "invaded" by foreigners claiming to be returning home. but the reaction has been somewhat unjust, don't you think? one could even claim that we are the ones who had been wronged, and are merely setting things right by reclaiming our home. biblical is not necessarily false. in fact, biblical is very accurate, if you take out the embellishments. there is no lack of evidence that the people (mostly) and the events (once toned down on the god side) were real. but disregarding that fact, even if the pals had a claim and an argument, their actions are despicable, those of a weak, hateful, primitive, and dishonorable mob, pardon my arabic.

"If I was Palestinian and the UN just decided to give a section of land that my people have had forever because the Old Testament says so you can be damn sure I would be pissed. Try and see it from their point of view."

Few things. One the koran says it too, but doesn't change your point. You are not correct on the idea that they'd been living there forever. The idea of nations in the middle east is a modern/western one, and was largely imposed on the clan based system in place there. Palestine/Israel in the 1800s was sparsely populated, and much of it by poor tenant farmers tilling the mostly infertile land of Ottoman and levantine absentee landholders. Have you ever noticed that to be a "palestinian refugee" you only needed to be in country from 1946 on? Or that many "palestinian leaders" (including arafat, al-qassam) were born in other countries ? Do these seem like things that are in keeping with a group of people who have lived in palestine/israel "forever"?

The idea of a palestinian national identity is a recent one, and it arose in response to Israel.. There are clear statements from "palestinian" leaders that they are in reality part of the larger arab group, and there is no historical notion of a palestinian identity. You can see this even recently in the first gulf war...saddam claimed the idea of kuwait as a separate nation was a recently imposed fiction.

Oh, and just because a lot of Jews move to an area and then it magically becomes "Israel" doesn't lessen the fact that is was taken.

How would we all feel as Americans if the Mexican population kept growing in the USA and all of a sudden the UN declares the whole south part of Mexico because they historically had it. I am sure all the people in Texas would be fine with that. Get real. Jews migrated to their "biblical homeland" and they finally reached critical mass and got their country.

actually, the land that the jews were granted for the state of israel was all land legally purchased by them through the jewish national fund, an organization set up to buy the land. no one was forced out of their land; they sold it and the jews managed to turn it from a barren land into one of the most technologically advanced areas in the world. they have made desert land livable and thriving, and it is currently the only country actually increasing in the number of trees every year (also by the doing of the jewish national fund).

heres a little info about the JNF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

Oh, and just because a lot of Jews move to an area and then it magically becomes "Israel" doesn't lessen the fact that is was taken.

How would we all feel as Americans if the Mexican population kept growing in the USA and all of a sudden the UN declares the whole south part of Mexico because they historically had it. I am sure all the people in Texas would be fine with that. Get real. Jews migrated to their "biblical homeland" and they finally reached critical mass and got their country.

Let's switch a few words and see how that sounds:

Just because a lot of Americans move to an area and then it magically becomes "Texas" doesn't lessen the fact that is (sic) was taken. 1

The annexation of Israel and Texas are separated only by time and space; heck, both were even justified on religious grounds. 2 The only reason you find the former objectionable and the latter beyond dispute is a matter of time and perspective.

1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Annexation 2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

Anthony, ignoring the "biblical homeland" claims, it is know that towards the end of WWII, the UN decided to create a Jewish state. The UN mandated Jewish and Arab states in Palestine. It should be noted that the Middle Eastern nations had mostly stayed neutral during WWII; had they actually been on the Allied's side, I highly doubt a Jewish state would've been created in Palestine. When the Middle Easter countries refused this, they attacked the newly formed Israel and fought several wars. However, Israel (under overwhelming odds) defeated these invasions and pushed back the Middle Eastern Countries. Israel eventually gave back some of the lands it had claimed as a result of war (Mt. Sinai), but refused to give it all back.

To sum it up, first person to blame is Hitler. Secondly, Israel was created by the UN (meaning it did not "steal" land) and has actually given back lands that it has gained through wars where other countries were the aggresor. I am neither Jewish, Pro-Israeli, or Anti-Muslim / Arab but I think the facts speak for themselves. If the US (or any European / Asian power) were in Israel's situation, I honestly think that country would behave the same as Israel.

balbasur:

............._@@@__ .... ___//___?____________ ..../--o-----CARE-POLICE----@} .....`==={@}=====+===={@}--'

lol "Care Police", well done

rebelcross:

The anti-American movement naturally comes down against America's top ally, this includes the worldwide Socialist movement, worldwide leftist poltiical sentiment and worldwide anti-Christian sentiment. The entire Muslim world and their allies naturally come down against Israel.

english please

rebelcross:

^^^While you are a right, you never go in one at a time (which nobody can seem to figure out anymore), if you pay attention to the video you'll find that Palestinians falsely raised a white flag of surrender to lure the Israelis in.

for real they should have watched 300

IlliniProgrammer:

2.) If any other western Democracy did to a region of their country what Israel is doing, we would likely cease diplomatic relations with them. There are very, very, powerful lobbies on both sides of the Israel-Palestine debate in this country, and since one of them is winning for the moment, we're best buddies with Israel.

IlliniProgrammer:

4.) Don't blame the victim until you have enough information to even figure out how at fault the "perpetrator" is. I know it's shocking to believe, but the police, military, et all sometimes screw up, big time. The same people who are blaming the humanitarian aid ship (which I'm currently assuming was unarmed) probably blamed Rodney King for getting beaten up by the police. Maybe they also wonder loudly how much clothing rape victims were wearing. In Israel's case, this could look 100 times worse than Rodney King once all the facts come in.

and take a look at my previous post and save us all the trouble of explaining everything twice. i know they're long, but you'll find that the rest of your post becomes largely irrelevant. there's videos too. if you're lazy anyway, here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI it has subtitles in the annotations.

IlliniProgrammer:

All in all, both sides probably did a lot of foolish things, but assuming the humanitarian ship wasn't firing rockets and shooting at the IDF, there's no way you can rationalize this for Israel.

The best solution right now, IMHO, is for the US and the EU to work out a deal with Jordan, Syria, or Egypt where we pay them $X Billion, and they agree to make all Palestinians full citizens and let them emigrate Gaza and the West Bank. (Few Palestinians want to stay in Palestine as it currently is, given a choice in the matter.) Nobody will like it, but it's the only practical solution to a problem that has been going on for 100 years and will likely continue for centuries unless we fix it.

1. israel was trying to take over the ships peacefully, proven by the fact that the other 4 or so ships saw no fighting at all.
2. israel did so in international waters because that was the only opportunity to do so under cover of darkness, hoping most would be asleep or unwary, thus preventing further conflict.
3. in one of my videos, you can clearly see the soldiers going in with paintball guns (no fucking joke!) so don't tell me you can't rationalize this! all precautions were taken to make this as "peaceful" and non-violent as possible.
4. your bit about convincing the pals to leave in exchange for money - very nice idea. very misinformed as well. what on god's godam green earth makes you think that the palestinians would relinquish their "ancestral land" in exchange for money??? and those few that will - what makes you think the arab countries will want their filthy (using their own thoughts here) UNwanted cousins populating their land? absolutely nobody.

mas1987:

We won the war(s)/territory, so did Israel, it may not be fair but that isn't going to change anything. (This is not a statement of support either way, just the facts.)

Whether or not we like the Islamic countries or not, it's in our best interests to play mildly fair with them. From an overall perspective, it's always good to play fair with folks, because you never know when it will come back to help you, but from a very pragmatic perspective, Saudi Arabia produces 10% of the world's oil and has 2/3 of its reserves. We can't win any wars without them selling oil to us.

rebelcross:

I wonder how many times it's happened with the American military as well. How many American lives have been lost at war because we weren't allowed to defend ourselves out of fear of the kind of sick minded backlash that we are seeing.?

How can this generation expect to survive against unresmorseful blood-thirsty enemies who not only refuse to play by the "rules," but go out of their way to exploit every possible trick and advantage at their disposal in order to inflict as much death as possible upon us.

If we become immoral in the process, then we've become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. So yes, stopping and killing terrorists is absolutely necessary, but just remember that every time you kill an innocent civilian, you risk turning half his family and friends into terrorists. And every time you raid a ship at 3 AM without a warrant or any kind of authority to do so, you piss a lot of people off. (You piss them off even when you have the authority to do so, but they can usually take a step back for a second and understand how it might be fair.)

If you're not confident that civilization can still win by following the rules, please form your own terrorist group. Thousands and thousands of years of history and evolution are on my side that cooler heads tend to prevail and that the only way to truly win is by playing by the rules.