Hello all!
I know there are a plethora of posts like this one but am In need of some insight (honest), I'll keep it short. I am (like a majority) trying to get into a reputable MBA program (13-20 range) within the next two years. Here are my stats, I am gonna put down everything that I can think of that may be relevant, if its not, disregard it and please let me know.
• 22 y/o male
• UGM: Finance (top 25 public b-school)
• UGPA: 2.9 (SMH)
• GMAT: 720
• W/E: Recently accepted an investment analyst position at a boutique asset manager (200mm AUM/2.9B Advising)
o Investment Banking analyst intern (5 mos)
o Hedge Fund analyst intern (5 mos)
• Volunteer Experience
o 8 years (Lots of hours) split between being a youth group advisor and later became the treasurer of my churches adult fellowship group
• MISC:
o Dual Citizenship Jordan/U.S.A
Moved to the states from Jordan at the age of 6
o Languages: Arabic (native language)
o I attended a state college for a year before I decided it wasn't going to be good enough and worked my ass off to get into my states top undergraduate b- school
If I could get some input, harsh or hopeful it would be appreciated. Obviously anything is possible but would like some advice or tips at what I should be doing in the next two years to really give my self the best chance. NO sugarcoating.
The boutique IBD experience will be what makes this work.
The more time, the stronger the recs, the better the GMAT, the less your undergrad GPA matters. I could definitely see you getting into Cornell, maybe even Columbia or Sloan if you give it 3 years (not 2).
Pick up some interesting hobbies. That never hurts for grad school admissions. (See my sig).
You actually seem pretty interesting and I like your chances (generally) at a top-20 school. 2.9’s get into schools ranked 10-20 all the time, and can sneak their way into MBA business schools ">M7 schools if all goes really well. I was also a low GPA applicant (
First off, thank you IlliniProgrammer and BGP2587, a fresh perspective always helps.
Cornell is my quintessential MBA program but not going to put all my hopes just in that school. Ill also study up more on the GMAT and if my practice tests start breaking into the 740 range I wouldn't mind retaking it.
As for the alt trans. I'm assuming quant courses, I took up till calc 2 (got a C) so if I were to take a couple classes I would retake calc 2 and maybe a stats course? or is my time better spent taking different courses?
Those two courses would make a lot of sense. I don't think it's anything too special, but will show them you can handle the workload and will also show that you understand you could have done better in undergrad.
I just got into Cornell w/ a 3.2, 710 and less sexy work experience than you have. You'll be alright, just make sure you have a good narrative for where you came from and where you want to go.
Want to elaborate a little?
I think you should be okay with the 13-20 range despite the poor GPA. I think everything else makes up for it to schools in that range.
What do you want to do after MBA?
If its investment banking / Asset Management don't go to a college outside of the top-10. You will find it incredibly difficult (effort put into networking, etc.) and the companies that come are also tier-3. They also don't pick up many students.
Full disclosure - I go to a MBA college outside top-10.
Not sure how far out of the top 10 you are, but based on what i have seen you are way off the mark w this comment
Beware of statistics ... and I am firmly in the middle of top 10-20.
Investment banking is something I've envisioned my self doing for a long time now and figure id rather keep going at it while I'm young-ish than later on in life regretting not even giving it a shot.
As for networking, it is something I have been working on since my early undergrad days. I keep in touch with my derivatives prof. who was a MD at a bulge bracket and he even put me in touch with a current director at the same bank. I also have a friend who is a VP on the equity derivatives and CB desk at the same bank. It goes without saying that these connections wont be the only reason I land my dream job but it wouldn't hurt to keep in touch. After talking with them numerous times, the advice was generally similar from all of them. Go to a top 20 b-school, get some name recognition. So even if I don't get into a t10 (wasn't expecting it anyway) I don't think that rules me out for IB. After all, its already an up-hill battle!
Echo what @graham2829 says. Schools ranked 10-20 place a ton of people into banking, and good banks at that. OP would have a great shot at IB if he wants from those schools. Just a couple of examples:
Fuqua (ranked somewhere in the 11-15 range) placed 11 at Citi, 7 at BAML, 8 at GS, 5 at CS, 3 at JPMC, 4 at Barclays, and 3 at MS/Wells.
UNC (ranked 15-20 or so): 12 to BAML, 8 to Wells, and then I can't find exact #s, but GS, UBS, JPMC, MS, Barclays, and SunTrust all hired at least 3 students.
UCLA (ranked 16 in USNews): Not great specifics, but over 10 to BAML, 5-10 to GS, Citi, Wells, Moellis, etc.
I don't know about that. When I was at my old firm (one of the firms you mentioned) I met a lot of NYU and Cornell MBAs working as business analysts, but I never saw them get someone INTO the front office. The one #10-20 MBA I met in the front office- from Ross- had previous FO experience and he was working in Fixed Income Research. The Cornells and NYUs of the world place people into banks, but not necessarily IBD. These are great schools and my firm has a lot of smart BAs with great careers who are very good at their jobs, but on the question of "will I get into IBD?" the answer is a lot more difficult than looking at firm placements.
If you're coming from boutique IBD, a 10-20 MBA may not be worth as much to you. I honestly think it's Duke, Tuck, Columbia, or bust given that situation, unless things are really bad at work.
I know people who've gotten into Booth with horrible undergrad GPAs (from non-target schools) but decent work experience. I know you're trying to be humble right now, and given how you compare to your classmates and their ambitions, Booth may sound a little ridiculous, but I think it may be possible in 3-4 years if you get strong recs.
So my advice is work your butt off and aim higher. Five years ago, I was getting ready to apply for MFE programs the first time around, and my list consisted of Rutgers, UMich, UVA, and maaybe Cornell. I had come from UIUC, I didn't have huge ambitions in terms of which school I went to, and I was content with these choices. My mentor at the time told me that I was aiming way too low. So I held off on those applications. Two years later, I got into Princeton's MFE program. I was ready to settle for a #15 school, but I was ultimately able to get into a #1-2 program.
If deal flow slows down a little during the next few years, it may also be possible at some point to get a part-time online course or two in, and try to come up with some better grades. This may be especially helpful at the Chicago schools- Booth and Kellogg. UChicago and Northwestern have a history of looking at momentum rather than pedigree and stuff from more than a few years ago. If you have IBD on your resume, if you somehow managed to take a part-time online course in the midst of your crazy schedule and get an A in it, if you can pull off a 740 on the GMAT and come in with awesome recs, you may have better than 50/50 odds at Booth.
I think a post like this is why it's dangerous to ask certain questions on this website. Please pose these kids of questions to people at the MBA programs you want to attend who are doing what you want to do. Illiniprogrammer (sorry to call you out but...) you don't know enough on this subject to give advice (again no offense).
Most MBAs really don't want to do IB anyway. So don't think that when you see low class % in IB it's because the whole class couldn't hack it. You'll find the smartest guys in your class go into all kinds of gigs, Corp Fin, start-ups, etc--all depends on personal situations/preferences.
Most MBAs who go to banks at the top 20 MBA programs DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT go to banks to do Ops, or other functions--it's laughable. Some go to fastrack on the Leadership Development Programs (so if you see them in some dept it's on a rotation--or they're running things) but those that go to Investment Banks do so in the Front office--IB (Sales is almost non existent--obviously).
Again, moving forward, just ask the people at the schools you're going to. Moving from a 720 GMAT to 740 probably isn't worth the effort in your case--use your time on other things. Just write good essays and impress the students and admin officers at the school you want to go to and you'll get in. Personal contact is more important at the 'touchy feely' smaller schools like: Tuck/Cornell/Kellogg/Duke--Darden to a lesser extent/etc. Penn/Columbia don't care about that. Drop your app at HBS--you never know (Jordanian background)! I don't know much about the West Coast schools but UCLA places a lot of guys into IB, always pisses everyone else off :-).
If you go to an MBA in the top 20 and ACTUALLY WANT to do IB (AND ARE NOT SOCIALLY RETARDED--this is key at the MBA level)--you'll get in. Most of your classmates really don't want to do it--until the money gets ridiculous again.
Oh and if you want to do energy IB. Just go to Rice (top 25-30) or definitely UT (top 20-25) schools and you'll definitely get into IB--if you want it (those guys are running Houston IB).
I think there are 12-13 colleges that could legitimately be called top-10. Fuqua is more closer to being called a top-10 than top-20. So Fuqua is great. For the rest, be careful of statistics :)
Good points. Definitely can't refute what you're saying as I'm not a banker. I will say that I have a few friends that went to Darden/Fuqua/even Georgetown that are now doing IBD at the banks I mentioned. It may be better for me to reference the number of people in Investment Banking specifically from the reports:
Note that each of these schools listed a median starting salary of $100k (not including bonus), which is identical to the investment banking salary on Wharton's career report (which obviously places people into standard IBD roles).
I may be totally off on this, but I am assuming that these are standard IBD roles, as I don't think Business Analysts make 100k pre-bonus with ~45k signing bonuses. We have people from all these schools on this board, so would be interesting to hear their experiences.
Sorry, to be clear, I'm an analytics guy. I first worked in fixed income research and then as an equities desk strategist. I didn't work with IBD, but I sat in the front office and had a lot of interaction with the back office, and met a lot of MBAs on both sides (Equity Sales, Fixed Income Research, IT).
As for starting salary, every analyst and every associate earns street and gets a standard signing bonus, including ops and IT people.
There is nothing wrong with going to Cornell or NYU or YSOM- they are great schools, but there is a huge problem with aiming too low. Booth gets you into an equity sales role at a BB, and probably also gets you into IBD.
A bit confused about what point you are trying to make with your last couple of posts.
Yes, you're better off going to a top 10 school if you can get in (obviously better placement for best jobs and more career options), but tons of people get FO IBD gigs in the 11-16 range. I visited three schools in this range during the fall and students at all were successfully making this move. Also have several friends that have made the switch without prior banking/valuation experience. If you have your heart set of GS, that's one thing, but I think if you just want to do M&A, most of these places will help you get your foot in the door somewhere.
Also, he's going into boutique Asset Management post UG, not banking. If he were going into boutique banking now, agree with your argument that an 11-20 school might not be quite as worthwhile.
Agree that he is probably aiming low. Particularly with a slightly higher GMAT, seems like a top 10 program would bite.
Curious about your decision to do the MSF instead of MBA...any chance you could provide a brief summary?
My point is that for OP, an 11-20 program may be aiming too low.
For a boutique IBD, with a 720 GMAT, with a unique and interesting hobby, Columbia is a target; Northwestern/Booth is a bit of a reach but worth the app. The 11-16 schools may be more like safety schools for OP.
On the MFE question, I thought long and hard about an MBA- my mentor encouraged me to apply to MBA business schools ">M7 schools- but I wanted to keep my options open for a quant career and a PhD. If I had gotten an MBA, several quant career doors would have closed on me. Meanwhile, the Princeton MFin kept those doors open.
It was a tough decision, but for a desk strategist, I think I made the right one. An MFE teaches you stuff (EG stochal, econometrics, machine learning) that you generally don't learn in an MBA and can't learn in industry.
This forum tends to play up the significance/weight that no name boutique IBD gives you. It is really not all that impressive if your firm is unheard of.
My assumption going in was that I was qualified for grad school at UVA or UMich, maybe Cornell if I got lucky. Coming from UIUC, these schools were all in my league. But I wasn't factoring in Lehman Fixed Income Analytics and ultimately a desk strat role at the level of a CS/BAML/Citi. OP is now in the league of Boutique IBD. And if there are at least some Associates and VPs at his firm who hail from the MBA business schools ">M7 or have undergrads in that league, which is what I suspect, THAT is now his league.
Look, if OP hadn't accepted his offer and was debating Equity Research at Goldman vs. IBD at a boutique, my advice would be more risk averse. But OP doesn't have a decision in front of him and he wants honest, risk-neutral advice on his admissions chances. Saying that a Columbia or maybe even a Booth might be in the cards is my honest assessment and does OP no harm other than (if I'm horribly wrong) maybe some false hope and wasted thinking.
If OP gets killer recs and works on a few successful nine figure deals (hundreds of millions, not billions), OP has 40-50% odds at an MBA business schools ">M7. These odds may increase significantly with a 740 GMAT, if OP can come up with a spectacular hobby, and an alternative transcript showing more recent As. OP's odds at an older-leaning school like Booth, Kellogg, or Wharton also won't peak until he's 27-28, and the more deals and promotions he gets, the less relevant the 2.9 GPA becomes.
I would just advocate patience here. If OP had graduated from HPYSWMC with a 3.5, he'd want to apply in two or three years. With a 2.9 from a non-target, he may want to consider waiting and making the undergrad less relevant. You can only get an MBA once, and it's generally the last degree you can ever get. Booth, Kellogg, Wharton, and (I believe) Columbia are still taking the 30 year old with more accomplishments over the 25 year old with less, so there is no harm in waiting until 25, 26, or 27 rather than applying at 24. Since Columbia with two extra years of pre-MBA experience costs the same as Cornell and probably offers a better career outlook than Cornell + 2 years of post-MBA experience, I don't think there's a lot of harm in at least considering waiting.
Working for a Boutique means that OP will clearly need to enumerate the deals he has worked on on his resume. Hopefully one of them will be something recognizable, or at least easy to research.
I think Duke, Tuck, and maybe a few lower M7s are targets. It's not a slam dunk, but they're targets.
Dude you are way off.
The raw facts of this profile are:
720 - Median GMAT 2.9 - Poor GPA Top 25 public business university? What does that even mean - could be Auburn for all we know and Good work experience, but unknown firm
Unless we are missing some significant factor, this profile is not an MBA business schools ">M7 profile by any stretch of the imagination.
Now I do believe that you could convince at least one of the second tier schools (ross, fuqua, stern darden) to give this profile an acceptance. These schools do well at giving students the opportunity to put themselves in BB IBD gigs if they are capable enough.
Secondly, the guy isn't even in banking, so what 9-figure deals are you talking about?
Not now, no. But if you can land at a Boutique FT with that, I have a feeling an MBA business schools ">M7 is possible.
Honest advice: take a look around and see what backgrounds people have at your new firm. Then base your decisions on that.
I got into Cornell this year with a 2.75/690. Certainly possible given your background, assuming you wait a few years (not much weight, if any, will be put on your internship experience). You seem like you're a younger guy, so thinking about it now is great - you'll be well versed in the process when it actually comes time to put the pen to paper on an application.
I'm not sure where MBAguy2014 is going on about with many Non-top 10 guys not being front office people. Like you, I'm looking to get into banking - also coming from an Asset Management background. From talking with the current students, Johnson does very well in investment banking. ~10% of the outgoing class ends up in IBD - not just working at a bank. Furthermore, among second year students, Johnson had 100% intern return offers for banking. Very few of these guys and girls had previous IB or FO finance experience. Finally, every first year that went through the recruiting steps (IB Immersion, trips to NYC for informational interviews, attended company presentations, etc.) had at least one offer for this summer. While this information is specific to Johnson - the school I know most about - I'm going to assume it holds true for other peer, top 10-20, schools.
I do agree with IP's basic premise on waiting until you're at your most desirable to a school, though. As he says, the MBA is something you only do once, so if you're deciding between a top 50 school after 1 year of experience, versus applying after 5 or more years to a top 3, 7, 10, 20, whatever school - be patient. However, once you reach the range of being able to get into a school that will get you the job you most desire with as little risk as possible, i'd say jump at it. From a career perspective, there is not much reason to wait a few years past when you'd apply to top 20 schools to get into a M7 if you want to do TMT at BAML, when you could end up in the same group from a top 20 school that you could get into when you're ready to apply. All that will change, from a career perspective, is that you'll be a few years behind where you would've if you just went to the top 20 school earlier. That said, there are obvious benefits of going to the best school you can. The MBA is far more than a 2 year job search, so to boil it down to only that is a bit foolish.
Hope this helps.
I have never met a Johnson MBA in the front office at the BB I worked for. I've met a lot of smart Johnson alumns as BAs.
I don't want to beat up on Cornell or the other T10-20s here- it's a great school and I know and respect a lot of undergrad engineers from there, but my prior view and sample set of MBAs is just a little too strong to buy this without some more specific, hard evidence. At the very least, I am reasonably confident that Lehman hired into the FO from Johnson quite rarely. Hell, I know Lehman alumns who left for Cornell Johnson hoping to make it into IBD- and then came BACK as business analysts two years later.
A very typical outcome from Johnson at Lehman would have been a BA role or risk management. But this might be different at other firms.
I really wish I could endorse this view, but my priors from running into MBAs at my old firm, and a few outcomes for Cornell Johnson MBAs that I am aware of, are just a little too strong for me to completely let go of this without seeing some individual placement data. (EG firm and group.) I am also aware that there are some biases in how schools present aggregate data, so the more cross sections we can get on this, the more helpful this would be in correcting my view on Johnson.
@IlliniProgrammer - I work in FO IBD (Industry Coverage) as an Associate at a BB (Citi / BAML / DB / CS) and there is strong representation of the Johnson contingent (off the top of my head, I can name five 1st and 2nd year Associates). Just do a simple linkedin search of Johnson alum - there are plenty in FO IBD roles (not S&T; IBD). As you duly noted, I think you didn't run into many Johnson MBA in your capacity in S&T, but there is definitely a good # of Johnson alumni in FO IBD roles. I know you're not trying to beat up Cornell and I just wanted to provide another data point for OP!
I also think you're grossly underestimating how difficult it is to get into an M7 MBA program these days (just an unfortunate reflection of the globalization of the application process). There is a relatively active poster on this forum who got denied by Columbia with a superior profile than OP (at least on paper): GMAT 750 and UG GPA > 3.0 (at a Top 5 UG business program). I think @wallstreet101 hit the nail on the head - having a 720 GMAT and a 2.9 GPA from a non-descript top 25 public business university (what does that mean? That could include, as aforementioned, Auburn) is not going to immediately jump off the paper for any M7 program. Also, "boutique" Asset Management firm (with only $200mm AUM) is not going to be a positive characteristic - it's going to be something that needs to be compensated for. Boutiques are advantageous when they are elite (repeat: elite) boutique firms and are as hard to get into as BB analyst programs (i.e. Lazard, Greenhill, Centerview, Evercore, Blackstone M&A), not non-descript boutique firms. Boutique, as a term, can be incorrectly exploited as a euphemism for a small, random firm in a satellite city.
To the OP though, I think, as @IlliniProgrammer noted, you should obviously apply to schools in the MBA business schools ">M7 range, in addition to your originally targeted 15-20 range. It's just a standard and logical way of attacking the application process because it really is a crapshoot and there is an element of randomness to it. My closest colleague at my BB got denied by Columbia but got into Booth (now a student there; obviously a great school) with no $ and Kellogg with $$$ (also an awesome program). I also have an undergraduate classmate who got into Wharton but not Sloan, etc etc. M7s can each look for different things in your application. Generally speaking, as we applied to a broad spectrum of undergraduate schools (reach, target and safety), you should similarly apply to 1-2 M7s, 1-2 top 10-12, and 1-2 top 15-20.
One piece of advice - retake the GMAT. 720 is on the low end given your profile (weak GPA from a lesser-known UG program and not elite work experience), and you don't want to put yourself out of the running at an M7. Also, while getting a 750+ won't guarantee you a place at an M7, it will increase your chances there and also heighten the chances of getting $$ from a top 10-20 school. Also, don't apply after 2 years - you are applying from the ultra-competitive finance cohort and you will get destroyed by people with 3+ years of experience in finance (2 years at GS IBD and 1 year at a megafund PE as an Associate; or 2 years at Bain consulting, then 1 year at Bain Capital; or 3-4 years as an internal promote to 1st year Associate at a 2nd tier BB (CS,BAML, DB, Citi), poor souls like me). Why would an adcom prefer you to provide insight on finance vs. the aforementioned applicants? Spend 3-4 years and get promoted to show that you can provide management experience as well. It's important and the reason why I waited until I was a 1st year Associate to apply (vs 3rd year analyst at a BB).
Disclaimer: I just went through the application process and got into Columbia + Wharton (denied by HBS).
@IlliniProgrammer, I just want to make sure that you know you are referencing your experience from 6-10 years ago. I think the IB immersion at Johnson has dramatically changed since then. If you look at Johnson's career placement numbers, you will see that they advertise 10% placement in IBD, not just "banks". Also, I have also spoken with current students and have learned that over 45 students in the class of 2015 have landed FO internships at bulge brackets and elite boutiques, including Goldman, MS, Greenhill, and Moelis, and about 25-30 graduating in 2014 received full time offers. Their experiences prior to b-school varied from MM banking to retail.
Obviously, placement at Goldman (1) and Morgan Stanley (2-3) were far less than Citi, BAML, DB, and CS (where I saw at least 3-4 going to each). However, I don't think referring to what you experienced in the early 2000s to be a fair representation of Cornell's reputation today.
Apparently spending time in Princeton turns a level-headed Midwesterner into a D-bag.
I thought to myself "I'm older and wiser than this guy. I don't make unintentionally douchey comments." But here I am being an idiot the very next day.
There is nothing wrong with Cornell Johnson; it is a great school. That is all I'm going to say. I am now going to slink away from this thread before I make a bigger fool of myself.
Dude has a 3.0 (2.9 might as well be a B), great GMAT, solid EC's and an interesting story. Build your resume and stay involved and I think T7-15 is totally reasonable.
I've seen so many people with "weak" stats get into great programs. Furthermore, I deal with people at MM banking and PE firms from all kinds of non MBA business schools ">M7 schools. ND, Michigan, Indiana, etc will all do well in Chicago (MM HQ). Ucla will be great on the west coast. You could get into UTAustin with those stats or Rice and do well in Houston.
I've just seen so many people with profiles you wouldn't expect get into great programs. It is more of a crapshoot than people give it.
Thank you for all the input its been great reading everyone's opinions especially because so many of you have legit backgrounds and your words carry a lot of weight/wisdom in helping me with this process. Thank you again WSO community!
Will do thank you again all!
Not to mention IP's FO definition is limited to whatever desk he worked at one bank. Not to mention he was an internal transfer, and wasn't doing all the class events like on campus hires. All Top 15 and possibly little further down the chain schools do pretty decent in IB placement at IB Associate level. I've seen a handful from UNC/Emory at my BB along with UCLA/Mich/Cornell/Yale, etc. You just have to be worth hiring. S&T hires overall are much lower at BB. Also don't confuse part time Stern MBA at BA or even BO role with FT MBA people.
Yeah, I think everyone above hit it on the head - not to derail the original thread, but well stated guys.
Short and simple, MBA business schools ">M7 difficulty is being grossly underestimated form your stats. Vey unlikely. Recap: average GMAT, very below average GPA (nonengineering), no name firm, ok state school, average community service. Not trying to be harsh just stating facts - after all we are talking about the top 7 Bschools in the world. That said the collective body of work is doable for the 10-15 range and definitely 15-20.
On another note, IB placement from 10-15 being overestimated in terms of difficulty. If you go to a 10-15 you can relatively easily to get IB. Percent placements are meaningless too because some schools don't have a lot of kids that even want IB. Gasp the horror but its true.
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