The perspective of a Greek Citizen: Explain it to me

They are blaming other people because they don't have the balls to blame themselves.

Also, people don't like being told to choose between poverty and starvation. Therefore Greeks have convinced themselves to fight for a third option which doesn't exist.

We really aren't that much better in the US. Just look at the California community college students protesting the increasing cost of tuition. The state spent money it didn't have, now it has to retract subsidies and entitlements, and people want to line up to claim "it's not fair." Everyone wants something for nothing. Just you wait until the rubber hits the road and we have to make real cuts to social security and medicare.

It's also a question of generations. I don't think you can blame the young kids in their 20s (the large majority of those protesting) for being forced to endure austerity measures that reduce their standards of living in Greece to little more than those of serfs in a vassal state. Their access to education, jobs and training have been heavily restricted by the proposed cuts and clearly it wasn't their fault. However, they should be equally angry at the generations before them - those for whom paying taxes was practically voluntary and for whom cheating their way into the EU seemed to be a decision without repercussions (idiots). Ultimately it's the Greek politicians that are to blame for endorsing a culture of living beyond your means and borrowing without even the faintest hope of holding enough in reserve to match it. Unfortunately it seems Spain and Italy are set to follow down the same path...

As a Greek citizen, I believe that we are the ones to blame. Things are exactly as you described them, and we have done nothing (besides imposing taxes) in the past 2 years.

Of course people blame foreigners, the EU, Germany (and sometimes Jews), but I dont care what people who believe its their "right" to get a high salary and keep their job even if they dont actually work have to say.

Greece just gets what it deserves...

These are the same people that have cheated on their taxes for generations upon generations. Its a joke.

Read Boomerang.

Personally I think taxes are wrong in the first place.

But at least mosst people who evade taxes, have worked for their money-unlike public sector employees who are actually stealing 100% of their income and contribute nothing (yes, if you have a salary, cannot be fired, and sometimes dont event go to work, your are a thief).

Not even half of them.

And I guess you get to decide this? Why don't they pay half of their taxes since, as you say, half of public employess have earned their pay.

This is an absurd argument. The idea that you don't pay taxes because you think people are being paid improperly is patently ridiculous.

Why dont you visit Greece then, to see by yourself? Of course, you may not be able to visit the Acropolis, because employees who strike close the entrance (as usual) to the area. You paid for this trip, I paid their salaries, they just take the money, dont work, and keep their jobs..

Something interesting I've seen in my research of historical civil uprisings has to do with the age of the demographics of a nation. Typically whenever these uprising occur that enact change (either violently through revolution, or gaily through Woodstock), the largest demographic age in the country is between 15 and 35. This was true in the US during the 60s, Egypt/Libya last year, the American Revolution, French Revolution, Cuban Revolution, etc etc. There are other reasons as well that lead to these issues, but it's a correlation that is something to take note of.

funny, you would think democrats would see what happened to greece and stop pushing for entitlements... but they don't

too easy to win elections by giving away other people's money I guess

I have a Serbian friend. He said that in Serbia when you are deep in debt you are said to be "in debt like a Greek". And the sayings is atleast 100-150 years old. So Greeks being in debt is not a new thing.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

These fucking American Idiots

Obviously there have been lots of things going wrong in Greece (massive tax evasion, retirement benefits to dead people, enormously large number of state employees etc.), but I wouldn't say it's entirely the politicians or 1%'s fault, as everybody pretty much knew what was going on, but just ignored it for their own benefit.

The problem with the European Union in this case is that it isn't completely integrated, as during the foundation lots of countries were reluctant to hand over control, which is why only a couple of years back they managed to work toward something like a representative for foreign affairs representing the European Union as a whole. So now after the Greek crisis countries are willing to hand over part of their fiscal authority to the EU to avoid a similar mess in the future, but before then nobody except the Greek government really knew what poison they were making over there.

Now that the shit hit the fan the Greek obviously don't want get fined for tax evasion, put up with lower wages or getting fired as one of the many useless state employees, and since the future of the EU hangs in the balance with Greece being the factor that could easily tip it over, they theoretically have lots of leverage there. To anybody thinking clearly it seems insane, I for myself as an outsider (not Greek but German :P) would rather put up with lower wages and "survive" than to fall into anarchy if the EU goes bust. But for them it may seem like they got nothing to lose, so why not hold the EU hostage and demand a bailout on their owns terms.

If your counter parties give you rope and then an outlet (or at least a strong negotiating positin) in the downside, that's called a good trade. Morality is irrelevant (ethics, being norm based, might be). Y'all need to work on putting yourself in the other guys shoes of your want to understand their actions and make money.

While the Greek situation clearly can't be understood in the clichéd 1%/99% paradigm, some within Greece believe it can be understood in a c.10%/90% paradigm. The benefits of public sector spending were in no way distributed universally and evenly; it was generally targeted around specific groups whose votes politicians wanted to secure. I think it is for this reason that a lot of particularly young people within Greece feel that universal cuts are 'unfair'. In other words, not everyone has been equally in receipt of the benefits, so why should the cuts be distributed in the same manor?

Another factor I think is the feeling of an obligation by the EU to help Greece out to a greater extent than they have been doing. Germany for instance, has likely benefited significantly from the benefits of a competitive currency vis a vis the euro, something which can be attributed largely to the weaker economies of Greece and spain etc. There is therefore the feeling, justified or not, among certain stratas of Greek society, that Germany and other strong countries that have benefited from the weakening of the currency are indeed obligated to offer help to Greece - and more than they are currently doing.

Into this dynamic I think you have to consider the traditional credit/debtor relationship. Banks were castigated for offering excessive (think 100+% LTV) mortgages and hailed as irresponsible - again rightly or wrongly, there was very little criticism of the average 'working guy' (here in the UK anyway) for borrowing more than they could afford to buy a house. In the Greek situation, for whatever reason, the situation has been reversed; there has been little criticism of lenders for allowing Greece to borrow such a huge amount of money, and a huge amount of criticism of Greece's irresponsibility. I think a significant number of people within Greece, based on the small number of Greeks I have spoken to, regard this as double standards.

The final point to throw into the mix is that Greece is running a primary budget surplus. Whatever the morals regarding the paying off of debt, there is a growing understanding that they are at present only borrowing to pay off their existing creditors. Aside from the mechanics of a default, and the inevitable sanctions and court orders this would bring - Greece knows that the bail outs they receive are not paying for their public services - just to service their debt. This is why a lot of people protest, they say well, why don't we just default, refuse to pay our debt, we will save ourselves all the repayments and we don't actually need the EU aid for services as we have a primary surplus. Clearly there are flaws with this approach (they could lose their eu aid, court cases, domestic banking exposure to greek sovereign) but the fact that people believe it to be a possibility makes people think that there is 'another option'.

All of this situation needs to be put in a broader context. Greece was poor, generally when you give poor people access to a lot of money, they tend to take it without thinking through the longer term consequences. Its not like they were being warned extensively at the time about their spending, this has only come about afterwards - and besides most other countries within the EU were doing a similar thing. If it was so obvious, they would not been lent money for so long. Equally your argument (OP) could be turned around as; 'what do these people expect, they make unsustainable loans to unsuitable debtors; time do put up/write them off. They have the gall to ask people already hugely poorer than themselves to make their situation even worse to pay their pensions, its supposed to be a 'european union/community'.

Just a disclaimer and to be clear, I am not presenting these arguments as being morally correct but rather to explain why some Greeks are protesting. It is not, as the OP has claimed 'Greek Society', but a number of people within Greece; homogenising the protesters and country in the way you have done isn't particularly useful and probably why you can't understand why they are protesting. AGAIN JUST TO BE CLEAR, I AM NOT SAYING THEY ARE IN THE RIGHT/MORALLY CORRECT, I AM EXPLAINING WHY I THINK SOME GREEKS ARE PROTESTING. I am not Greek or part Greek and have never even been to Greece on holiday.

Of course this post ignores the possibility that the thread was a thinly veiled invitation for some Greek bashing rather than a genuine attempt to understand their motivations - in which case go ahead.

anon56: people new to wake the fuck up. Germany has only benefited from a weak Euro since shit hit the fan in summer 2011. Saying that the Euro has been weak all along since 2002 is akin to saying that markets foresaw the troubles of peripheral Europe - they did NOT.

Granted, Germany's exports are benefiting right now, but with the bailouts the net benefit is unclear.

"Germany? (The hand that feeds you)"

Who is Germany feeding? No bailout money is spent in the Greek economy. The money goes towards the debt and interest rates.

The Greek society has a main problem. It's overly individualistic and very family orientated. The concept of taxation is not conceived by some citizens who believe they are entitled to 100% of their income- just because they don't like sharing (it all has to stay in the family).

I think either you have misunderstood what I have said, or I have not made it clear enough.

The argument is that the euro is and has been weaker than a standalone German bund would have been at the same point in time, even prior to summer 2011. The argument you have presented is the one I generally used, but the counter I have come up against has always been that even when the euro was strong(er) it was still not as strong as a standalone German bund would have been. Now I am not sure if I necessarily agree with this, given there were some years of pretty strong non-german european growth, but it is tough to categorically disprove. I guess I should have stated explicitly that in this context the word weak was relative to the strength of a hypothetical German currency at the same time. Also there is the fact that even if it didn't necessarily work out like this - it was likely an objective of successive German governments and so if they were prepared to reap the rewards, should they also have to accept the dangers?

"Granted, Germany's exports are benefiting right now, but with the bailouts the net benefit is unclear."

Agreed.

Thanks, SB right back.

The main problem for Greece is that its tax collecting agency is very corrupt. They take kick-backs so they ignore how much people need to truly pay. I don't remember where I heard it but Greece loses millions of dollars every year due to tax fraud that is caused by this problem. People just don't want to change they way they life, and how things are. We are dealing with a similar problem in the USA with Medicare and SS costs which will soon become almost all of the government budget. People need to accept the fact that somethings need to be cut back, that sacrifices need to be made.

^^Try billions of dollars a year.

the best thing of it all is that here in Italy the media would like us to believe that we're not into deep sh**t anymore

The people in Greece have 0 faith in the political system as it is corrupt and has been corrupt since the junta. Greece has a terrible education system and as a result most Greeks do not really understand the mess they are in. It is not easy to live off a salary of 300-600 dollars a month.

let me break it down for you:

the greek citizen doesn't give a flying fuck what you think.