Unpopular Opinion - Never Want Kids

Completely off topic post but hear me out. 

I'm male, late 20s, working in London, and I never want kids. I know I am still young, but I have never been more certain of anything in my life. I could write an essay on my reasons why, but it mostly boils down to the fact that I do not see any of the "benefits" as beneficial to me personally. I do not care about leaving a legacy, I don't care about getting lonely when I'm old, I don't need children to give my life purpose, no desire to pass on my genes, etc.. On request, I will be more than happy to go into more detail...

So why am I posting this here? Well, something is really grinding my gears lately. Most of my colleagues, clients, advisors, or anyone in my network either have children or plan to have them in the future. I'm often scared to mention it, but whenever I do I am usually politely told my opinion is wrong, "you'll change you mind when you get older" etc. Even after a long in-depth discussion, I will still be told I am wrong for not following the status quo. 

My question is: 

Is there anyone else experiencing something similar to this? It may not be kids, but perhaps experiencing a general lack of inclusivity in the workplace due to a lifestyle choice? 

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Comments (231)

Apr 26, 2021 - 11:54am

I have been explicitly clear to anyone I date that I don't wnat kids upfront. My current partner is on the same page of me. But if that ever changes in the future I can always just move on. That's one of the beauty of not wanting kids, I have no time limit here, if I find myself single and alone at age 40, I don't have an issue with that. 

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Gen
Apr 30, 2021 - 3:06am

Been told that in America atleast, adoption services have too MANY parents who are applying and not enough kids (i.e. many parents who do want to adopt can't since they're not qualified enough / too much competition).  

But I'm on the same page as you re: kids, although a few years younger and no SO.  Legacy is just people jerking off their ego and the time commitment it requires is insane. Plus the whole idea of birthing a person for your own life experience/enhancement seems selfish for lack of a better word. 

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Apr 26, 2021 - 11:50am

I wouldn't want to adopt in general. But I would much rather adopt than have a biological child yes.

I'm kinda in the camp of thought that there are many children in the world without a good home so I'd much rather help someone struggling out, rather than create a new life.

  • VP in IB - Cov
Apr 26, 2021 - 11:57am

Unpopular opinion but we now know that so much very important shit is heritable (intelligence, impulsiveness, mental health) and you have very little idea what you're in for when you adopt. All I can think of are the handful of seriously crazy adopted kids I've met and the Atlantic article about a family that adopted a psychopath. God bless those who adopt but that's a no from me. 

Apr 26, 2021 - 12:01pm

Yeah I understand what you mean here. Very true. 

On the other hand though, I have some hereditary reasons for not wanting a biological child too. I have certain medical issues I don't want to pass on; including a hearing defect, fallen arches in my feet, and something more embarrassing that I don't care to share on this forum... And to top it off I am dyslexic haha

  • Developer in RE - Res
Apr 26, 2021 - 2:28pm

Definitely a lot of truth in this. I've seen it go the other way, actually. Friend of mine was adopted from birth into a very blue-collar family with limited education and some issues. He loved them and still does, but the reality is that they were on very different wavelengths in many ways when he was growing up. He went on to college, then grad school, traveled all over the world, and now has a very successful career. As an adult he tracked down his biological parents and extended family, and it turned out that they were highly educated and successful like him.

  • VP in IB - Cov
Apr 26, 2021 - 11:51am

An older family friend told me that many people who say shit like "you'll change your mind" just want you to suffer the same fate as them.
 

No one can deny that having children can be rewarding or that you'll love them but not enough people think about how expensive and, quite frankly, burdensome they can turn out to be, especially in some fringe cases (special needs, mental issues, delinquents, failures that want you to pay for their shit forever). 
 

Having kids shouldn't be thought of as a birthright or the natural next step. A lot of parents can't afford them or don't have the means or know how to set them up for success but they are too stupid to realize that. 
 

I too can't understand why those of us who are unsure about having kids are vilified but I think a lot of it is people justifying their own decisions. Maybe having kids was the only way for them to leave a legacy but there are honestly more rewarding ways, albeit much more difficult to achieve. 

Apr 26, 2021 - 11:58am

I agree with this 100%. I think when someone has made a tough decision in their own life (in this case, the decision to have children), they often want others to follow the same path of them so as to solidify the idea in their mind that they made a good choice themselves

Controversial
  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 26, 2021 - 11:56am

Not having kids is one of the most cucked things you can do.

First, refusing to have kids implies that you have no intrinsic value as a human being, for children are one's way to survive beyond death. If you value yourself - your intellect, your personality, your drive, your physical appearance, why would you not want to create and raise another human being from your own blood to pass on these qualities that you value? If you do not value any of these things, then you intrinsically dislike yourself, which is a reason why people tend to distrust you or disregard your opinion.

Further, refusing to have kids if a proof of immaturity, because the people arguing in favor of a childfree life highlight the additional money and time they save that can be used to travel, party, and enjoy the pleasures of these days. Would I trust someone whose lifestyle is based on meaningless hedonism? Intrinsically, I do not care about how selfish you are, but the fact that you decide not to have offspring so that you can have more money to go to Bali and party with thots is suspicious, and you say yourself that you do not care about what comes after you. I do: as a normal human being, I care about what will happen after my death. Life is a precious gift, and the world in itself is so much more beautiful than the entropic void that you seem to favor. That is why people tend to prefer to engage with individuals who see the big picture, and hold higher values that go further than the mere fulfillment of their senses. We could talk a lot more about hedonism, but you see my point, and I hope you understand why such detestable ideology is currently destroying Western society.

Finally, refusing to have kids is a treason, toward humanity and life in general. I'm not even talking about a duty toward some god, I'm talking about keeping the music going. Billions of years ago, molecules somehow combined and led to complex organisms. Why? We don't know. We still don't know the "why" of life, "why" life emerged from the primordial soup. The probability of life emerging from a soup of atoms is so low that refusing to honor it is like burning a fine piece of art: you destroy something that was carefully crafted over time, spitting on the beauty that emerged from chaos. It's like destroying with a hammer the exquisite statue that was extracted from a block of marble.

Having children doesn't provide "benefits". "Benefits" implies that you have a choice, that you choose to invest or not. There's no choice about having children or not: those who refuse die forever. Even the most genetically simple bacteria has a desire to procreate, because they know that their offspring will inherit the earth.

You may now understand why people have a hard time associating with you. People usually do not want to associate with nihilists who reject life and art, and who would rather see the world burn after their death than appreciate the beauty and immense complexity of life. Why do the poorest people of Africa have children? Because they think beyond the risk/reward ratio, and hold higher values than a merely materialistic interpretation of the world. If a bacteria is more successful at fulfilling life's purpose than you, you may want to start asking questions.

  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
May 21, 2021 - 12:23pm

What's with the MS? The guy was clearly being overly abrasive in his response to OP to illicit a response from others, hence a troll

Apr 26, 2021 - 12:14pm

Dude, I respect your opinion, but you are coming across very rude and disrespectful.

I understand you clearly feel passionately about this and you are making some valid arguments. But you are also making a lot of negative assumptions about me and speaking in a very demeaning way. 

There is nothing to be gained by running other people down.

  • VP in IB - Cov
Apr 26, 2021 - 12:22pm

You speak as though parents are more evolved, higher level beings whose genes were worthy of being passed on to the next upstanding generation. 
 

Go spend 2 minutes at a Target in a strip mall in the Midwest and then come back and harangue us again. 

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 26, 2021 - 12:33pm
:

Go spend 2 minutes at a Target in a strip mall in the Midwest and then come back and harangue us again. 

You argue against yourself. Ever seen the movie Idiocracy? My point isn't that people who reproduce are intrinsically better; my point is that it is a great shame that the most qualified individuals of our age decide not to pass on their genes.

  • Analyst 1 in PE - Other
Apr 28, 2021 - 8:08am

...and target is the most upscale the midwest has to offer. Dude should go to Walmart or Kroger...

Most Helpful
Apr 26, 2021 - 12:33pm

Cringe take bro. While I don't necessarily agree with OP I can at the very least understand where he's coming from. Your points literally don't even make any sense.

First: Wanting to have kids means that you value yourself as a human being
counterpoint: Kids aren't a vessel for you to live vicariously through and will, more often than not, be completely different from you (it's how sexual reproduction works). Your thinking that having kids will pass on all of these excellent traits that you have (hint: they're not that great) is both scientifically flawed and logically flawed. 

Second: Some individuals choose not to have kids in pursuit of hedonistic goals but I'd argue is it not also hedonism that drives some white trash family in a trailer park to have their 8th kid they can't support? Additionally, it doesn't seem like you're religious and, in fact, recognize the absurdity of existence. IF that's true then why are you speaking about procreation as this intrinsically meaningful thing? There's absolutely no meaning in the universe so you should do whatever the fuck you want as opposed to what "society" says you should want.

Third: I don't even know where to begin addressing your last points. "Bacteria know how to procreate therefore you should do so too" Yeah bacteria also eats shit and lacks consciousness, why are you modeling your life on some naturalistic explanation. Humans are different from animals precisely because we can choose to defy our nature. Also your point on destroying the "will of the universe" is so absurd it's funny. There's no meaning behind why you're here so why are you placing so much meaning in the fact that OP is here and chooses not to have kids. You seem to think that procreation is some sort of universal constant but that's both nonsensical and odd. 

To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering.

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Apr 26, 2021 - 1:12pm

Thanks for your response here, appreciated it. I actually started to type out a reply along the lines of what you've written but deleted it since this guy appears to lack the emotional intelligence to see another perspective so I figured I would be wasting my time. 

  • Associate 1 in CorpFin
May 21, 2021 - 12:28pm

Recognizing the absurdity of existence does not equate to refusing the value of human existence. Anyone who is not religious then should live like hedonistic animals? Try telling that to highly orderly and productive society of Japan where 40% identify as convinced atheist.

Also, humans do not choose to defy their nature. When we deviate from the known and the alien behavior rewards us it becomes our nature. We synthesize alien behaviors into our nature. No living organism by choice can outright defy its nature. Even suicide is in our nature as a social mechanism. 

Apr 26, 2021 - 2:53pm

My god, another WSO post full of righteous wisdom from someone young enough to still be on their parents health insurance. 
 

Had kids later than average, and don't regret waiting. OP if you don't want kids, don't have them, and don't feel guilty about it. 

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."

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Apr 27, 2021 - 2:06am

1) what's the purpose of having kids? Earth will die sooner or later. nothing is indefinite. and your kid or grandkid (or grand grand etc.) might easily decide not to have kids or turn out to be gay or die young and not have kids or be unfortunate in his/her love life and never have kids. so why is it important to pass your genes now if eventually they will die out with 100% probability.

2) your genes are not that different from genes of other people. we're all coming from the same ancestors. in a thousand years or even a couple hundred years, your grandkids will most probably resemble you less than somebody else's kids. like most of the black people in America have white ancestors - slaveowners that raped their grandmother. and they don't resemble them much.

3) what is more meaningful than spending an enjoyable life? how is raising kids more meaningful? just so they can raise kids, and the cycle repeat, and nobody has time to enjoy life because everybody is just concentrated on passing on life? and eventually the life of everybody will come to an end. so what are we doing here? just pushing the rock to the top of the mountain knowing that it will eventually slide down, instead of enjoying a hike in the mountain?

Apr 27, 2021 - 9:16am

First, refusing to have kids implies that you have no intrinsic value as a human being, for children are one's way to survive beyond death. If you value yourself - your intellect, your personality, your drive, your physical appearance, why would you not want to create and raise another human being from your own blood to pass on these qualities that you value?

...And on the pedestal, these words appear:

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare

The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Apr 27, 2021 - 9:44am

So you argue that being gay is treason? You are completely clueless

There are 8+bl people, no need to have kids if you don't want them. It's not "treason" as your lack of kids won't remotely hurt humanity. What an idiotic take

  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
Apr 28, 2021 - 12:10am

This guy fucks. Strong post sir, fully agree with you. Modern mankind is centered around hedonism and consumerism, and cucking yourself by not having kids is simply the final step in this new natural state. Honestly, I really don't care whether people have kids or not, but when I hear the thoughts of people like OP I think he might as well get a tattoo on his lower back and fill in every dating app with "love to travel." Millennials are defined by 30yo adults who wish they could perpetually be 11yos without an ounce of responsibility. Fine, do your thing, just not my bag, and I think this has much broader consequences on our society than just kids.

Apr 28, 2021 - 1:34pm

Millennials are defined by 30yo adults who wish they could perpetually be 11yos without an ounce of responsibility. 

I must have missed the part where the dictionary entry for "responsibility" was altered to include "synonyms: children; kids".

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Apr 28, 2021 - 5:34pm

100%. Deracinated, individualistic, selfish, modern lifestyle is nearing completion. Not having kids is the final step in the process. "I don't want my blood line passed down." That is a statement I simply cannot relate to. Maybe natural selection just needs to run its course. Fanatical obsession with career advancement is nothing new, but viewing oneself as the pinnacle of a meaningful life is in the grand scheme of things.

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Gen
Apr 30, 2021 - 3:12am

And what exactly is wrong with your family/bloodline dying off forever? You realize more likely than not, humans as a species will go extinct in the future, if just from the heat death of the universe trillions of years from now. All you're doing is pushing off the inevitable. 

Apr 26, 2021 - 11:57am

I feel the same way, but also believe I can be persuaded by the right person and/or circumstances. My father was 53 when I was born. As a male, we have a helluvalotta time to change and for circumstances to present themselves. But I've got to say--I was at a park yesterday and saw a man with his wife and kid and I felt a little nauseous looking at that scene. Also, I'm incredibly turned off by what kids does to a woman's body (not all, but most).   

Array

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Apr 26, 2021 - 12:06pm

Yeah I get those feeling too, seeing people with kids in the park and just feeling like "I'm glad that isn't me" hahaha. 

I agree also that there could be a slim chance I may be persuaded in the future, the future is completely unpredictable and I don't know how I will feel in 20 years. I just know how I feel now :)

Apr 26, 2021 - 8:03pm

Memberberries

I feel the same way, but also believe I can be persuaded by the right person and/or circumstances. My father was 53 when I was born.

Wow 53 is pretty up there. My dad was 46 when I was born, so older than most. My dad worked with a guy (Paul Thurmond) whose Dad was 73 when he was born (Strom Thurmond).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/a-thurmond-of-the-next-generati…

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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Apr 30, 2021 - 12:06am

wife's dad is 88 so 88-26=62 at birth

I think mine was around there too

Having kids in older age is fucking irresponsible and selfish. Sue me you indecisive career fucks

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
Apr 26, 2021 - 8:05pm

Is you father still around? 

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Apr 26, 2021 - 9:42pm

Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎

Is you father still around? 

Before he met my mother he was a chain smoker (2 packs a day for 25 years). My mother refused to marry him unless he quit smoking. He agreed. Went cold turkey. 18 years later he died of lung cancer at the age of 69. The tobacco industry claimed its victim--you can run but you can't hide.

Array

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  • Intern in Acct - Audit
Apr 28, 2021 - 7:55am

OMG same!!! I just do not dig how much a womans body changes after even one child talkless of multiple. I feel ashamed because other guys say its "beautiful" and "miraculous", I even thought there was something wrong with me so I keep these thoughts to myself. 

I wouldn't mind a surrogate birth though because I actually love and adore children and would'nt mind having one, just worried about my wifes body looking like a prune. 

Apr 28, 2021 - 9:37am

OMG same!!! I just do not dig how much a womans body changes after even one child talkless of multiple. I feel ashamed because other guys say its "beautiful" and "miraculous", I even thought there was something wrong with me so I keep these thoughts to myself. 

I wouldn't mind a surrogate birth though because I actually love and adore children and would'nt mind having one, just worried about my wifes body looking like a prune. 

Yeah, I'm down with surrogacy. The tough thing to overcome with that is that pregnancy for many women is a beautiful thing that they want to at least experience. So finding a woman who wants kids and is not repelled by the thought of surrogacy might be difficult. 

Array

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  • Associate 3 in PE - LBOs
Apr 26, 2021 - 12:08pm

In the same boat. I actually do like kids; I'm happy to be an uncle and be friendly to them, as long as I can give them back to their parents at the end of the day. 
 

I think I'm too selfish to have my own - I want to live for myself, not for some future beings that I'm tailoring my life for. It wouldn't be fair for me to bring them into the world because I know I wouldn't give them the attention and care they deserve. I'm glad my parents gave me a good upbringing, but I don't think I could provide that same dedication. 

Apr 26, 2021 - 12:18pm

Thanks for your perspective (sorry I am out of credits or I would give a bananna).

I feel exactly the same of this. But fortunately I do have 2 brothers who both want kids so I will happily be a part of their life :)

  • Intern in ER
Apr 27, 2021 - 9:36am

I think this is the best approach. All of the benefits of seeing your nieces and nephews grow without actually raising them.

  • Associate 3 in PE - LBOs
Apr 28, 2021 - 8:31am

Living for oneself doesn't mean living frivolously. Some people choose to devote their time to philanthropy, passions, careers, scholarship, and many other pursuits that don't involve raising kids. 
 

And if someone does want to live frivolously, who cares? If they want to enjoy themselves during their short time here, who are you to say they're wrong?

Apr 28, 2021 - 2:54pm

Again, anonymous person making unfounded assumptions, basically everythign you assumed was wrong...

- I wake every day at 6am and sleep each night at middnight. 

- I hardly ever drink alcohol or go out partying (even before lockdown) 

- I haven't play video games since I was about 16. 

- Most travelling I do is for business.

- I spend my time outside work playing sports, coaching a local team, hitting the gym, reading, playing guitar and hanging out with friends. 

Apr 26, 2021 - 12:19pm

If we are on the same page, then I guess abort. But if she wants to keep it then I would do my best to be the best dad I can be, but I am convinced this will be at the cost of my happiness. 

I do not "want" kids, but if I did end up with one, I would try to give him/her the best start in life 

  • Associate 3 in IB-M&A
Apr 26, 2021 - 12:12pm

I'm 32 and in the same boat, I generally just keep it to myself so I don't have to deal with the "oh you're just young, you'll change your mind". I feel like a lot of people have kids because that's just what you're supposed to do without putting any significant thought behind why they are deciding to have kids. I have nieces and nephews who are great, definitely not the kind of person that just hates kids, but after a considerable amount of thought I just don't have some overarching drive or reason to have any of my own.

Apr 26, 2021 - 12:22pm

Yeah, it can feel like society has a predefined path that most people follow, so a lot of people just follow it without putting thought into considering if its what they really want to do. I was actually the same, and up until about 4 years ago I always thought I would have children. 

Apr 26, 2021 - 12:19pm

Having two kids myself (and another on the way), please don't have kids if you don't want them. You will be a terrible parent and those children's lives will not be good, regardless of your financial status. Who knows whether you'll change your mind in the future, but until then, keep doing you.

That said, my family is the most rewarding and joyful part of my life, and if at some point you do change your mind, there is nothing more wonderful than the love/admiration of your progeny and it saddens me that other people may not experience that joy.

Apr 26, 2021 - 12:26pm

You have landed on the single most compelling reason why I am so certain about this. I know deep down that if I ever do decide to have kids it will because of societal pressure / pressure from partner / pressure from parents etc. But I know that if I do it for that reason my heart will not be in it, and the child will sense this and as a result it could have a severe psychological impact on his/her life. 

Actually my decision has nothing to do with my finances, I am relatively financially stable, but I think my decision would be the same if I was a billionaire or bankrupt.

Apr 30, 2021 - 12:10am

Word. It sucks seeing people who clearly didn't want to be parents fucking drag their kids around and act like pieces of shit. Those kids are gonna be thinking about their shitty childhoods for the rest of their lives. It's gonna feed into everything else they ever do. It's gonna impact their self-esteem, their relationships, their careers, their health - everything.

I always knew I wanted kids and she's the best thing in my life by far. Stoked for a second soon. And then I can blast all the gear I want. You job shall be done, boys... *pats nuts gently*

j

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
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Apr 26, 2021 - 12:39pm

Please allow me to elaborate on some of the reasons I do not want children:

  • I do not have that internal paternal instinct. I don't really like the idea of looking after children and having that responsibility.
  • I am selfish in the sense that I don't want to work my whole life just to accumulate and pass on wealth to the next generation to give them a better life than I had.
  • One day I wish to quit high finance, and have the full flexibility & freedom to go live anywhere I want in the world without having to up-route a child's life.
  • I am somewhat passionate about environmental issues, and I want a better future for future generations, therefore I do not want to contribute to population growth if my heart is not in it.
  • I think that because I don't want children deep down, they will notice this, and it will negatively impact their lives.
  • I feel very fulfilled and happy in my life and do not feel like I need a family to feel happy.
  • I honestly don't understand the desire to pass on the genetic code. I just do not have that desire.
Apr 26, 2021 - 1:33pm

Leeeeemmmmm

Please allow me to elaborate on some of the reasons I do not want children:

  • I don't really like the idea of looking after children and having that responsibility

That's pretty much all you need right there. Echoing [[email protected]], I have kids, and they're the most important part of my life, and I spend zero minutes arguing with people about whether or not they should have kids.

It's not that hard to be a parent. It's really, really hard to be a good parent. The only hope you have of being a parent that teaches and prepares a child to have a fulfilled life and healthy relationships of their own as an adult is for it to be your unquestioned top priority. Doesn't mean you need to spend 24 hours a day with your kids, but they can't be a side project that gets pushed away in favor of your true interests.

This was always an easy decision for me - when I was younger and thought about what I wanted to do with my life, I never thought about my career goals - I wanted to be a dad. My career is what gives me a platform and resources (time, money, flexibility, etc.) to enable me to try to be a good dad.

You may surprise yourself and your thoughts might change. They also might not ever change. I promise you it won't be someone else that convinces you either way. It sounds like you're getting a lot of pressure, either personally or professionally, to reconsider - and remember that you don't owe anyone else an explanation or a defense for your choices.

"Son, life is hard. But it's harder if you're stupid." - my dad
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Apr 27, 2021 - 12:22am

As a parent, this is pretty much exactly what I wanted to type. Why would anyone care whether their coworker wants to have kids or not? If you have kids, do your best to be the best parent possible. If you don't want to do that, don't have kids by any means.

Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes.
  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 26, 2021 - 8:25pm

Leeeeemmmmm

  • I do not have that internal paternal instinct. I don't really like the idea of looking after children and having that responsibility.
  • I am selfish in the sense that I don't want to work my whole life just to accumulate and pass on wealth to the next generation to give them a better life than I had

Woman here who feels 100% the same way.  Especially because I'm still in college though, many others (especially those from my WASPy hometown) tell me that my "hormones will kick in eventually" (as if there is some other huge hormonal change I'll experience between now and menopause) and that I'll change my mind as I get older.  I've straight up had someone tell me that as a woman that's part of my role too (to which I could respond with paragraphs more), but in addition to all the above points, I simply don't feel the same "baby fever" that so many of my female friends are constantly talking about (mostly 19-22 year olds)... plus why would I put myself through the pain and physical risk of pregnancy and childbirth if I don't 100% want it

Apr 27, 2021 - 2:45am

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I can imagine it must be 10x harder as a woman as a huge amount of sexism still exists, many people out there who think a women's main goal in life is to bear a child, ugh

Apr 29, 2021 - 12:13am

I'm married, and we chose to be childless. Parenting is too much of a commitment to go into it half-heartedly.

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Apr 29, 2021 - 12:23am

25 here and feel the same sentiments as above. I also struggle with anxiety/depression and the thought of perinatal and/or post-partum depression is frankly, too much of a risk. I also weigh the possibility of not being able to get pregnant easily or naturally - I truly have no desire to go through IVF and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a child. It's just too much for me personally - I know there are people who will go to the ends of the earth to have a child (seeing some of my older peers struggle with it now) and while I understand, it's not for me. 

Apr 26, 2021 - 1:46pm

There's never been a more popular time to hold that opinion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/

Maybe you'll find some solace there.

It always struck me a little odd when someone spends a lot of time talking about what they *don't* want or what they *don't* believe. Like people who are really into atheism.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
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Apr 26, 2021 - 2:27pm

Thanks, didn't know this reddit existed so thanks for sharing. 

I see what you mean, but what I "don't" want is partially a consequence of what I do want. i.e. I want to be happy and have a life with more flexibility & freedom etc. But it's also a consequence of people telling me what I should or should not do. I would not need to say "I don't want kids" if there wasn't people constantly asking me "so when are you going to have children".

Apr 27, 2021 - 12:28am

The problem with that subreddit (and many others) is it treats "not wanting to have kids" like a personality rather than just an individual choice. It's such a strange place. Reminds me of the polar opposite of the Karens who tell everyone to have kids. 

Just make your own choices without finding a tribe of similarly minded people who will circle jerk their opinions. Like today's post "[RANT] Spent the weekend of hell with friends with kids" by "28/F/Better things to do" --- okay? Why share this stuff on the internet?

Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes.
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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 27, 2021 - 12:36am

Most of Reddit's userbase is composed of mentally ill people who try to rationalize their unhealthy lifestyle choices by congregating with other retards, what did you expect lol?

Apr 27, 2021 - 12:03pm

i hear r/truechildfree is better (lots of people on r/childfree just rant about how they hate kids in general?)

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Apr 27, 2021 - 3:15pm

Posts on the front page right now (in sequential order. not even cherry picked):

-Support of Eugenics isn't welcome here.

-I got sterilized today

-That time I went to a psychic

Draw your own conclusions, folks

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
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Apr 26, 2021 - 9:39pm

This isn't a good excuse. You should be fine.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Apr 26, 2021 - 5:33pm

Well I maybe worded that poorly because I didn't want my post to be too long that people go bored reading.

What I meant to say was this. I do not feel like I need a child to stop me from feeling lonely when I'm older. I like to think I will be able to make new freinds throughout my life, especially in the age of technology it shouldn't be too difficult to connect with like minded people at any age. I would probably do this regardless of if I had children and would never rely on children to fill a gap from not having a partner or friends. 

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 26, 2021 - 8:26pm

@brofessor I feel like you would have something valuable to share here

Apr 27, 2021 - 7:28am

WallStreetOasis.com tagging feature is still meh, FYI. I know he got my username wrong but usually there's a popup that lets you correct

I did write a thread saying I don't want kids, and I did it to challenge my thinking. 3y later, still childless and I'd argue happier than we've ever been. as I've been saying more and more, never is a long time, so I've resisted saying I'm never having kids, I just say "it's a no for now." we talked about it (wife and I) as recently as this weekend and it's still a hard "no" for now anyway.

like my boy Synergy_or_Syzygy not having kids or having kids, neither one of these is a personality, so I don't really care if people ask, I'm content to just say "nope" and then move on. if they wanna talk about theirs, fine by me, but I look at this less as an affront to my lifestyle and more of them being a poor conversationalist and lacking tact (you should, under no circumstances, assume someone wants to be lectured about their lifestyle choices unsolicited).

I'm curious, under what circumstances are you mentioning you don't want kids? are they asking you directly or are you offering this info unsolicited? do not offer it unsolicited, it's narcissistic to redirect the conversation to you when it's not about you. if they're asking, just say "nope, not now anyway" and then if they continue probing, they're being rude. when dealing with rude people, it's best to deflect and redirect. redirect back onto them and ask about when they had kids (even if you're not curious, it's a surefire way to get someone talking about themselves and get the convo away from you), deflect the question by saying "yeah maybe I'll change my mind, maybe not, who knows?!" and if they really get aggressive with it, shut down the conversation "hey, I appreciate that this is something you care a lot about, but this is a very personal decision, and let's just leave it at that. now how about that superleague debacle?"

to answer the last question, lack of inclusivity in the workplace due to lifestyle choices? 100%. most people I work with are fat, don't read, think macaroni grill is italian food, think Orlando is a cultural experience (an experience yes, but not the kinda culture I'm talking about), have children, and have boring hobbies like golf, tennis, or comparing stock picks at boring cocktail parties. I say this: WHO FUCKING CARES?! live your life the way YOU want to, and while it's always important to be tactful and congenial with your coworkers, no one ever said you have to make them your friend group. I've gone to exactly 0 dinner parties, golf outings, cocktail parties, etc., and have experienced no hiccups in career growth. quite frankly, I spend enough time with my coworkers, the more time without them the better imo.

finally, lighten up on "you've never been more certain" piece. I'm not saying your position will change, but your humility most certainly should. have the humility to realize that you may feel differently when you meet the right woman/man. have the humility to realize you may grow and priorities change. have the humility to realize that just like life is impermanent, so too are most opinions. you say you've never been more certain on anything, and either that's because you're under 25, or you're forgetting whatever past opinions you've had. you probably had some very strong opinions when you were 10, and again when you were 15, and so on. I know I did, I was CERTAIN I wanted to do XYZ for a job, and that fizzed in a few years, and then I was CERTAIN I wanted to do something else. have some humility, you don't "know" what you'll be like in a few years, so rather than digging in your heels defending a viewpoint you may or may not hold forever, focus on fixing what really seems to be the issue, your perception of lack of inclusivity. look elsewhere for this, outside the workforce where people just wanna talk pitchbooks and pregnancy

Apr 27, 2021 - 1:05pm

Thanks for the detailed and very thought-provoking response. Much appreciated.

"under what circumstances are you mentioning you don't want kids? are they asking you directly or are you offering this info unsolicited?"

Never intentionally unsolicited or out of the blue but sometimes it just naturally comes up in convo. Here is an example:  I have been working in the office whilst most of co-workers are WFH, and some people have been asking about my dynamic at home (I am in the office because my GF uses the only desk at home, and I like my screens for modelling). So, my colleagues and I often get talking about the benefits of office vs home, and naturally childcare comes up in those convos. People who ask things like "you'll need to worry about childcare yourself in a few years", or "you'll probably want to move out the city once you have kids" etc. And I proceed to mention that its not in my plans. Other times, I have been directly asked "so when are you planning to have kids?".

Thanks for the advice on how to respond to these scenarios though. Very useful 😊

With regards to your final paragraph: "finally, lighten up on "you've never been more certain" piece."

Yeah I agree with you here, and I would never say something like that in person, usually I would be a lot more passive like "I don't plan to have kids in the future". I chose to use strong words in this post to hedge against people jumping to the conclusion that I haven't put much thought into it.

Apr 26, 2021 - 9:31pm

You fool.  Idiocracy was not supposed to be a 'how to' movie.

Array

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Apr 27, 2021 - 12:30am

nah that's just incel shit, just get off social media and live your life. Just be confident in your own choice to have or not have kids. No need to join weird internet subcultures to rationalize every personal decision.

Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes.
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Apr 27, 2021 - 2:52am

I appreciate people sharing these reddits with me, but the thing is I am seeking inclusivity within my own industry opposed to seeking out a specific sub-community who share like-minded views with myself in regards to this matter hence why I posted on WSO opposed to reddit as I would like to get the thoughts of Finance professionals

Apr 26, 2021 - 10:16pm

I'm in college right now and I just can't see myself having kids anytime soon. Maybe in my 30's but we'll see how it goes. Coming from a Pakistani family where almost everyone got married young (younger than 25) and had children right away, I realized it's not for me. I don't want kids and a wife while im trying to build my career and just want to enjoy my life.

Apr 27, 2021 - 2:09am

same here. 100% certain. and when I tell my colleagues, some actually envy me cause they have to deal with kids, others just respect my views.

Apr 27, 2021 - 3:35pm

I was hanging out with my friend one-on-one last night. He is married with two young kids (5 and 2ish). He makes 7 figures and has a demanding job. Out of nowhere he just said, "You know, man, my kids are the best thing to ever happen to me..." And my initial thought was, wow, he's about to put my beliefs in their place. But he continued: "But my goodness is it frustrating and exhausting. They just dominate my time. Not a moment goes by that I don't worry about them." He spent half of the 25 minute drive home trying to get ahold of his wife to make sure that the front door was locked and that the kids weren't kidnapped.  

Array

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Apr 27, 2021 - 3:43pm

hahaha ngl you had me at the first half too! 

I think most people who have kids often feel like this, they love them to bits, don't regret having them. But at the same time it completely consumes their life 

Apr 27, 2021 - 10:06am

Anti-natalism is such an faux-edgy basic bitch ideology. Just admit it, you want to keep being a degenerate hedonist into your golden years. Nothing wrong with that, but don't try to hide it as if you are some persecuted sap with an unpopular opinion.

"Work ethic, work ethic" - Vince Vaughn

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  • Developer in RE - Res
Apr 27, 2021 - 11:30am

I think people overestimate how good they are at predicting what they'll want later in life. It's a good idea to look at people who are similar to you but significantly older than you are, and see what they think. Odds are you may think that way too when you get to be their age, even if you don't now.

Apr 27, 2021 - 1:21pm

You are probably right to an extent. If I ask some older people they will inform me that they thought exactly the same as me at my age but changed their mind once they aged a bit. But I actually have a lot of role models who do not have children. for example my Uncle has been happily married for 30 years with no children, another family friend of mine is in his 60s and gay, single with no kids. Neither regret not having kids or adopting. So I find it a little fustrating when older people say something like "you WILL change your mind just like I did", when in realtity there are many people who didn't change their mind and remained happy & fulfilled. 

I wish people would instead say "you might change your mind", to which I would not have a problem.

Apr 27, 2021 - 11:34am

I didn't want kids either back when I was in college, but it's hard to find a girl who feels the same way. Since college days, I've changed my mind and decided I wanted a little human that loves me 

Apr 27, 2021 - 1:24pm

Luckily I already have a girl who doesn't want kids. If our relationship doesn't last forever, I am not too worries about finding someone else as I am usually very happy single too, but I am sure there are many others out there who think similar to me anyway, would just need to wait for the right one opposed to compromising on something so huge 

Apr 27, 2021 - 4:02pm

You could have just ended your comment at "girl" and it would have gotten the message across. Also kids don't necessarily love the parents lol I think you have a very "mythologized view of kids" to borrow a phrase from @Memberberries.

Array

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Apr 27, 2021 - 3:40pm

You may not know any, but there are endless examples of estranged children, kids in the foster system, people who won't say it out loud but who regret having kids, and so on.

Array

Apr 27, 2021 - 3:48pm

I see your angle, few parents regret having kids and many people regret not.... But do you not also know older ppl who didn't have children and do not regret it? I know many!  

The good thing is that seeing as I am a man, if I ever find myself regretting the decision later in life I can always just have a child late... Or just adopt / foster which for me would be more rewarding anyway

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 27, 2021 - 3:48pm

When I'm older I have the opposite view, I want like 4-5 kids. I talked about it with a few buddies from home and like your situation, it was an unpopular opinion. It got some push back like why I don't want only 2-3 and that 4-5 kids were so much. Props to you for your opinion, I think it's important to come to conclusions especially of something that completely changes your lifestyle. It sucks when people don't realize how different their lives and personality are from yours, and just assume if they feel a certain way you will too. Just wanted to sympathize that even though I have the opposite feeling as you of wanting kids, I feel your pain of everyone shoving their personal opinion down your throat on a matter that is so closely related to individual experiences and personality. 

Apr 27, 2021 - 3:56pm

Sometimes it feels like other people need to push their opinions onto others as a way of justifying their own life choices and re-affirming that they made the right decision. 

You rightly pointed out that it's pretty much anyone who steps away from the status quo who experiences this. I'm sure people who take non-linear career paths or have out of the ordinary beliefs may experience similar things. 

Apr 27, 2021 - 4:10pm

I want to clarify something from my original post. When I referred to "experiencing a general lack of inclusivity", I did not mean imply:

  • I feel persecuted or held back.
  • My environment is hostile.
  • I feel left out.
  • I see my trivial annoyance on par with other inclusivity matters.

What I meant was, I sometimes feel like I cannot be fully open about my own choices. Whilst others are openly talking about future family plans, I feel like I have to be careful what I say and filter my thoughts so as to avoid negative reactions, even though it's personal to me (i.e. not politics etc).

  • Director in IB - Cov
Apr 27, 2021 - 5:23pm

@[email protected] was spot on. If you don't want or desire kids, then don't do it. There's too many shitty parents in this world, which has led to shitty young people.

There are plenty of reasons people have kids. One of mine was to try and leave society in a better spot, knowing that we have the capacity to raise good people. There aren't enough of them in my view.

Apr 28, 2021 - 3:34pm

How the fuck is having kids a good decision when it comes to time and money????

Array

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Apr 27, 2021 - 9:23pm

For better or worse, a lot of people will judge the OP for his lifestyle choice. I'm not arguing whether that's fair or unfair, but he's correct in his sense that he's getting the side-eye when he explains it to people.

It's fair to say that having children changes any person who actually acts like even a halfway responsible parent. I'm in my early 30's and still single and most of my friends are married with kids, and their lives are nothing like they were before that happened. You could argue that they're better or worse, but they're very different, permanently.

From what I can tell, if I don't at least get married by the time I'm about 35, older people are going to really start increasingly giving me the side-eye after that.

I also think some of this is situational. If you're a physically unattractive and financially unsuccessful man, people aren't going to care if you have a wife and/or kids because people generally are going to pretend you don't exist. But if you're in my situation and "maybe no woman wants him" is clearly not the issue, then people start to ask other questions. Questions such as "Is he a womanizer who can't control himself? Is he incapable of committing to things long term? Is he a massive asshole in his private life such that all his seemingly attractive attributes are negated? Do I want/trust someone who's like that overseeing millions of dollars of investment capital?"

Maybe those questions aren't fair, but trust me, the higher you move up the ladder and the older you get, the more society expects you to at least get married.

Last point--if you get married and you don't have kids after a few years, and you simply respond with something like "We'll see whether that's in the cards for my wife and I," then anyone with even semi-decent social skills (most business people qualify there) will assume there might be a fertility issue and politely change the topic. So I think you're largely covered if you get married, even if you don't have kids.

"Now you's can't leave." -Sonny LoSpecchio
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Apr 28, 2021 - 4:29am

Excellent response. And exactly right! +1SB. it's concerning how I am already seeing the side-eye in my late 20s and can only imagine the older I get the more it will happen.

I am also somewhat attractive and have a decent amount of money & success, and I think you are right about those questions being asked. But also people are probably asking things like "is he even capable of having children?"(infertility), "is this guy a sociopath", and alos "is this guy gay?" haha! 

If I may ask a personal question back to you, now you're at an age where a number of your friends are getting marridge with children & their lives are drastically changing. Have you found yourself gravitating away from them into new friendship circles, or are you still maintaining the same relationship with these friends?

Last point is a pretty good idea. Although in a perfect world, I wish I just didn't need to worry about people judging my decision and coming up with ways to avoid them asking more. 

May 3, 2021 - 5:40pm

If I may ask a personal question back to you, now you're at an age where a number of your friends are getting marridge with children & their lives are drastically changing. Have you found yourself gravitating away from them into new friendship circles, or are you still maintaining the same relationship with these friends?

A combination of both. I am still in touch with most of my friends who have had kids and hang out with them when I can, but I've also started hanging out more with other bachelor finance bros the past few years. However, my social situation probably isn't representative of most people because I've moved around the country to four cities in ten years and my friends who have kids are more located in cities I don't live in anymore, and I'd probably hang out with them more if I lived there. People who have young kids have to work to find free time, though, and they tend to gravitate towards shared activities with other young couples who have kids, which makes perfect sense.

"Now you's can't leave." -Sonny LoSpecchio
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Apr 29, 2021 - 1:16pm

This is the dumbest thing I've ever gotten hit with "monkey shit" for. If that isn't an instance of "shooting the messenger" then I don't know what is.

Elon Musk's eccentricity is tolerated because he's a prodigy. You're not Elon Musk. Anyone who doesn't understand that things like marriage and family signal "stability and commitment" to higher-ups in high finance and that that affects the way a rising young man is perceived by the top echelon guys in business--the vast majority of whom are or have been married and have children--is delusional.

As I said at the beginning of the first post, I'm not saying it's "fair," I'm saying it happens, and I know it happens because it happens to me. No one cares if the college kid who threw monkey shit at me is single, but when you're a 37-year-old nihilist collecting sports cars, people with wives and kids (most senior executives) start to have questions.

"Now you's can't leave." -Sonny LoSpecchio
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Apr 28, 2021 - 10:12am

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Array

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  • Anonymous Monkey
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Apr 28, 2021 - 11:29am

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