Hello WSOers,
If you could give one piece of advice to your small balled freshman self going into university or early into your career, what would it be?
Shed some knowledge you learned from your experiences, and let the young bucks on this website learn more from this post than they did in school .
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If you don't get into a bank right out of school, it is not the end of the world and that does not mean you will never be able to get an investment banking, sell-side or buy side role. It really is such a small percentage of people all around the country who study finance who make it right out of school to the top firms. You can work your way into finance by networking and being heavily proactive in your early years! I promise you that! Keep your head up, make smart choices, continue to have that drive and choose who you network with wisely. Once you're in, it is easier to move around.
Would you say it's better/more effective to work in a small investment firm to get some experience in the investment side of the industry, or work as teller or a bitch job in the bank unrelated to IB, and apply to IB jobs from within?
In this case I would work for the smaller investment firm any day of the week. Some people believe that working at a small shop makes it difficult to do anything after but I disagree. What you'll do at a smaller shop and the experience and responsibility you get as a younger employee, you'll learn so much more than a rigid structure.
just curious, how'd you get your start out of school? Im a recent grad that has a solid chance at some regional MM IB gigs in the fall but have an even more set in stone PB gig that is looking to hire immediately. What would your advice be if you were in my shoes? take the PB job and put IB on the back burner or still hold out for that coveted position haha
So I was at semi target school, but my gpa wasn't close to even get any interview nor be looked at by any bank... i started out at a big4 in advisory. I chose what I worked with there wisely and was lucky enough to secure a position in the buy side as an investment analyst at a hedge fund a year after (via linkedin shockingly). I worked their for two years, and can now say I received an investment banking and Asset Management offer at large and prestigious banks and chose the latter, I worked my ass off, networked, but I did have some luck. I also stopped my final rounds with a large PE shop, a boutique firm and a few others. None of the jobs were received via referral. I know I have a weird story but I'm proud to say I wasn't looked at at all and had it turn around in 3 years.
I mean, in 5 years, what do you see yourself doing? What is it you truly like doing? What do you find more interesting? There's also nothing wrong with trying to PB and still going to interviews for IB if you want to. Nothing is stopping you from doing that, and you may find you like the PB position. I personally would take the PB and go from there, but what do you want to end up doing and what are the steps to get there? Feel free to PM me as well to talk a bit more in depth.
Email the people who liked your resume but didn't have a spot at the time. Pay more attention to the recruiting cycle. Leverage any connections as much as possible. Work out and drink more.
How do you know if someone liked your resume or not? Like when should you be showing people your resume other than at an interview?
Job fairs, recruiters on campus, and a bit of networking. They tell you they like what they see either in a discussion or via phone call/email.
Go into engineering or IT. Building tangible things seems more rewarding.
I think IT and I don't quite think tangible... Am I misinterpreting something? Not trying to be a smartass.
You can work in IT and build a saleable product downloaded by millions. That seems tangible to me. Or you can build applications used by folks and maintain it like a mechanic maintains a car for a company, etc.
Definitely try to fit in a workout everyday no matter what it does wonders for not only your physical health but your mental health as well.
Even investment bankers put their pants on one leg at a time.
I take it this was you every morning in the month leading up to your super day, kemo sabe:
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MonkeySeeMoneyDo its hard to pick one piece of advice but for me what stands out is this: focus on getting into a target university (not necessarily for IB but a reputable school but one that attracts the biggest names from F500) OR if you're at a target school focus on getting a 4.0 or maintaining close to a 4.0 as possible.
Anyone who tells you that your school doesn't matter or your first job doesn't matter should not be trusted and doesn't know how things work in today's world. The difference between attending UPenn vs State U vs East State A&T is the difference between working for a well-known company and making $70K a year vs working for Mattress Firm or Target in Sales at $45K.
Point is: school matters and grades matter right up until you receive a job offer. Focus on this before you do anything else.
How long would you say your grades matter? Is it just to land your first job or does it stick with you past that?
It depends. Post-college it doesn't matter much as your work experience is whats relevant. With this being said it can help give you a slight edge as a 4.0 from Harvard will raise eyebrows (in a good way) and get people's attention.
Grades I feel also matter for MBA. You could have stellar work experience but a sub 3.0 would raise concerns although it depends on school to school as some are more forgiving than others.
It all boils down to this IMO: you never want to give someone an excuse to ding you and a low or sub-par GPA is the easiest way to reject someone. Its similar to the question of "Is a B in an AP class better than an A in a regular class?" "No, an A in an AP class is ideal."
Make sense?
Don't choose a major for your parents and just study finance. Postgradwonderer we are in the same boat.
Don't study FINANCE, which is DUMB and OVERRATED. Major in FEMINIST DANCE HISTORY instead.
Does that background help disrupt the sex dungeon industry?
No
Oh damn, lost the certification. hate to see it
Finance is dumb and overrated.
Take (quite possibly) your last chance in life to learn academic things and become a better thinker
What do you wish you had known before college? (Originally Posted: 05/14/2010)
Ok, so I will be starting at Wharton LSM as a freshman this fall, and I hope to enter banking. My question to you guys is what is it that you wish you had known before starting college. What things do BB firms really care about? Do ECs play a huge role? If so, what kind matter and do they care about awards? How important is your GPA? I'm at a dual degree at Penn that provides me with two paid interships my sophomore and junior year, and I've been told that they are better interships than I could ever find on my own. So, what other stuff do I need to know in order to maximize my success after college.
Thanks!
Do not, under any circumstances, get serious with a chick before your junior (at a minimum) year, if at all.
I mean, unless she looks like Marissa Miller and comes from old money. In which case, lock that down, friend.
I'll take a marissa tomei over a marissa miller. Aging matters.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but feel I should point out that Miller is nearly 40. I get it, though, Tomei has aged insanely well.
Perhaps I should've said, "...unless she's a true dime, and comes from old money"
But most importantly, play the damn field and don't get exclusive with someone too soon. Entirely too many fish in the sea to waste time in a relationshit.
Fuck yeah. Always had a thing for Marissa Tomei (she was hot as fuck in My Cousin Vinny), and when she was all over the screen butt-ass naked in The Wrestler I couldn't help but think how well she has aged. Dem some good genes.
GPA and internships are the things that matter most for recruiting. What kind of internships do they give you? I would question the statement about not finding anything better on your own.
Apart from that, do some EC that you will enjoy. They are not that big for interviews (you might talk about them for 3-5 minutes). The best EC are business related clubs. Wharton has a finance club, a PE/VC club, Wharton Investing Club (stocks and options), and a Global Markets Group which focuses on sales and trading. These clubs will provide good experiences to talk about in interviews, and help you show an interest in finance. Try to get leadership positions in those clubs. You could also do some volunteer clubs like Habitat for Humanity or Special Olympics, but they are not that important from a recruiting point of view, although you should still volunteer some of your time regardless.
I suggest you go abroad for at least one semester. You make some great friends, the classes are not that hard, you drink constantly, and can travel to so many different countries. I have traveled to London and China. I loved them both and I recommend London if it is your first time going abroad.
Also, find out what areas/career options interest you the most and learn about them on your own. This will help you out during interviews as well as getting a better understanding of what each area entails. For the longest time I wanted to go into PE. I still love the idea of hostile takeovers and buying companies, but I know from my research that I could never have a career in PE because I could not take the day-today grind of PE/IBD. Business clubs are also a good information source
I agree with studying abroad. Absolutely do that at least once. Beyond that, just travel. Take on some debt, whatever. The four years fly by and soon you'll be grinding away in Excel all day. The more sick memories you have to keep you happy, the better.
Also, definitely get involved with business clubs. More importantly than the bullshit they help you throw on your resume, you'll meet kids that will be a huge asset to have in your network. Many times they'll turn out to be great friends.
GPA and internships are most important. Keep at least a 3.5 GPA. Try to get finance internships in summers of freshman and sophomore year so you can lock in an ibanking summer analyst position the summer of junior year. Make friends with upperclassmen and keep in touch- they will be helpful during recruiting.
Extra curriculars are not that important, but you should definitely have interests outside of school. Join one business related club and try to get a leadership position. Also do stuff you enjoy (join a frat, play a sport, etc). Travel abroad is definitely a recommended experience for your enjoyment, but not necessary for recruiting.
Ok LSM is not a dual degree program but a joint degree. You just need 40 credits.
2. You get internships at Merck. Yes it is good in respect to healthcare.
Listen, you are in LSM because you have a passion for healthcare/sciences along with banking. You specifically will have an advantage for healthcare IB along with those healthcare focused firms such as Leerink.
Piper Jeffrey also has a good healthcare group.
But if you want to specifically go for the "jaw dropping" MS M&A, GS TMT, I don't think being LSM helps you at all. Now being a Wharton Finance major who works with finance professors on analytical research... might be a good step.
I wish I knew not to ask fat chicks to do any presenting during presentations - long story short, I was accused of being degrading to women -_- - I have yet to know why.
Makes sure you bring a baggy for your bath room stuff. Bring a water bottle. Bring a stapler. What school you go to does matter. Bring a three hole puncher
never forget about your reason for going to college. if its to get fucked up and have no responsibility for 4+ years so be it, but if you are there to professionally prepare yourself- do not get caught up in the party scene. Keggers will happen regardless of whether you attend them or not.
Also for internships- Do relevant ones, obviously. seek out internships that directly relate to the job you are pursuing. For freshman and sophomore year the work experience > company name.
have fun. you're gonna be young and focusing on nothing but a job you might not even get (which the last few posters focused on) is gonna hurt your college experience. you don't want to be the guy with nothing but internships and finance clubs on graduation; even if you do get that banking job part of doing well in it is being sociable, being able to connect with other team members on college days/sports/etc, and if you didn't have a good time in college that will show through
If you go to college to "develop professionally," that's all well and good, but if "developing professionally" interferes with your ability to have a great time and develop as an individual, then you may want to reconsider your priorities. These are likely your last four years before working every day for what is essentially the rest of your life -- don't miss out on all the fun opportunities that you will be given. It's easy to work hard, get good grades and have a blast all at once. Don't become one-dimensional, because no one likes a complete tool. That doesn't mean you have to go out and drink yourself silly four nights a week to have a blast (though 95% of college kids, including myself, do this), but do things you enjoy outside of the classroom and outside of "developing professionally." Go abroad for a semester or two, play club/intramural sports, join organizations that YOU enjoy (don't join the business or investment club because it's a CV-builder -- you're better off joining an org that your passionate about, because that'll shine through when you talk about it. If that means passing over the business club and joining the ... environmental club, then so be it, but do it because you're passionate about it).
Sorry for the rant, but college is about becoming more well-rounded and developing yourself as a person. That means doing what is necessary to do well in school, and then spending the rest of the time doing things you enjoy. You'll have 30+ years to develop as a professional once you graduate.
I wish I had known what I wanted to do in life.
At 18, my choice of college major was largely driven by the fact that I liked playing computer games and running websites.
My suggestion to the OP: If you're a quantitative guy, take lots of math courses-particularly applied math stuff. Math is the key to getting into a lot of the more technical grad programs, even if you don't have a prior background (Works for CS, Finance, Econ, and even engineering and physics sometimes.)
This is what I would tell my 18 year old self.
If you're not getting at least a 3.5 GPA, then you need to take some time off until you're 110% committed to getting those grades. I'd rather had taken an extra year to finish undergrad than to have graduated with a 3.0 (which I thought was solid until I started interviewing).
Don't waste your time chasing "elite" chicks. Back then I only wanted the girls with the prettiest face, biggest tits, and the biggest butt. That proved to be a waste of time and an emotional drain. My success ratio was like 8/400, lol. Not every guy in college is going to pull the hottest females, but any decent guy can score with good looking women. The key is to find the most attractive girls that could be interested in you, versus just trying to bag the chick that was in the Snoop Dogg video.
Don't get your MBA until you're 98% of what you want to do after getting your MBA, which for me means wait for 5 years after undergrad. I did my MBA at lower tier school right after undergrad because I couldn't find a good job. Looking back, I rather I would have taken some job back home making 28K, and developed myself and my goals.
I'm only a college freshman, but things that I've picked up so far in college are:
Make sure your college has a good social life (good Greek system/parties/cute chicks/etc.) cause if it doesn't your college experience is gonna blow ass and you'll hate yourself for picking such a shitty undergrad.
If a lot like 70% of students commute, then you sure as hell better be a commuter because you will be board to death and forced to suffer in absolutely deserted college campus on the weekends.
Just fulfill the requirements of your college/major and get the highest GPA possible. Anyone who tries to bullshit you to challenge yourself is a fucking liar and moron. I learned this in high school the hard way and as a result did better in college academically.
I don't know much about study abroad since my school doesn't really advertise it that much, but if your school does have a study abroad program I'd suggest you do that since I've heard it would be fun.
Enjoy college. It can be a great experience and super fun if you pick the right school and know what you want professionally, academically, socially, etc. in a school. I didn't know what I wanted in a college back in hs so the more focused you are the better of you will be.
As far as internships go, get a freshman and sophomore one. I just finished a PWM internship at a BB and I'm already seeing how beneficial it has been for me so far. If you get a solid GPA, 3.7+ at a good college combined with good internship experience/ECs you'll be in a very good position for SA/FT recruitment.
chinamaninvesting:
Actually, LSM is a dual degree program now. It got changed in 2008. Not that it really matters, but ya.
Everyone:
Thanks so much for the feedback! I really appreciate it.
Explore the world outside of banking. I am not telling you to alter your life right now, but consider other careers before you commit to banking. The worst thing that could happen is that you get a SA/FT and realize you hate it afterward (but don't want to change careers b/c you think it is "too late" in your undergraduate career to do so). If you can find something else that you enjoy, at the very least consider it.
Another thing... try starting a business! You are going to a school with very powerful resources and alumni. If you think of a good idea, try pursuing it. There will be no other time in your life when you have so much free time and no real world obligations. Who knows, you could hit it big in college and never have to work a day again in your life. At the very least, you will walk away with practical experience which, many will tell you, is probably more valuable than most things you can learn in a classroom.
Make sure you enjoy your college experience. Make plenty of friends, study abroad, join a frat, go do EC's etc.
Make friends with professors you like. Most people either don't show up for class or never talk to their professors. Dumb idea. Many of them have industry experience and have a lot of connections. It's really good to have people other than your parents to ask for advice about careers and life in general.
good question.
keep your gpa above 3.5. else it's baggage that you'll carry for a long time, and will give you grief at every step. this is THE ONE thing i wish i had known.
other than that, have fun and make mistakes, grow up, i dunno, just try to fill a lot of experiences into the 4 years.
All this non sense is giving me a headache! get good grades and get good internships, if you know execs you are in, if you dont know anyone in the business start networking.
2.) Networking is overrated; employers want to hire competent people. Yes, get yourself out there, but focus on your mathematical, financial, and (in IBD) writing competencies.
Do not sleep with the hottest girl in school, she probably has AIDS, or Herpes, or both.
In general: Work on grades, socialize more, get out and experience life, don't be a dumbass.
On school: Focus on your grades and do more extracurricular activities, even if they are on the weekend. From where I was in grade and high school, I never thought I would go on to get my master's or be where I am today, but I never had the super-stellar grades that I probably could have had.
On social life: Don't make dumbass decisions (or just "Don't be a dumbass," according to Red Forman) and treat others the way you would want to be treated. Branch out and, as stated above, get involved in more social activities. Spend more time with those that matter to you - you never know when those times may not exist anymore.
On work: You're working too much for a college student early on - even though the experience probably helps with internships later on, it's okay to scale back a little, and that will give you more time to focus on grades. You're doing great compared to peers thus far.
On future planning: Things may seem tough at times, but everything is going to turn out alright. Stay the course, and you'll do some really awesome things that not a lot of people get to do. Don't get down on yourself over short-term missed opportunities - life isn't a race (and I still have issues with this today). Always be willing to try new experiences - watch "Yes Man" for inspiration, even though it's a very mediocre movie.
I like this advice! Awesome read!
Don't hook up with people from work. It's a remarkably bad idea.
Don't hook up with your clients either.
Find a good boss. They are rare, and you need someone pulling for you in a large company to get ahead.
Associates are not the bosses of anyone.
VPs are not the bosses of anyone.
A 'boss' is a person who can hire or fire you without asking anyone else. Everyone else is a colleague.
Don't try to be everyone's friend. It's a losing gambit in the long run.
Don't be a dick. Courtesy costs nothing.
Don't be the guy who trashes the bathroom. Who are these animals who seem to lack basic toilet etiquette simply because they're not cleaning up their own mess? It's absurd. Stop it.
Hot assistants--don't be stupid, find an old battle ax and keep her if you can. You'll thank yourself one day. And treat her well, for God's sake--she doesn't 'work for you.' She works for the company, and she knows about all the questionable shit you do.
Work out, or you absolutely will get fat in your 30s
Your 30s--they come on WAY faster than you might imagine
Women in their 30s--never better looking than when they were 25, but they're more worldly, and generally better conversationalists. That said, a streak of desperation runs through women in their late 20s as they know their social value is dropping and are seeking a husband.
Which leads me to my final point:
love this
Dude, that was a solid list (+sb)
Find yourself an old battle axe lol
Can someone share their experience with these two? They're certainly not contradicting one another, but I sense that this could make for some challenging/uncomfortable interactions.
A lot of people are in your life for a short period or just destined not to become best buds. Be nice but don't go out of your way - its a waste of time that you should be spending getting ppl that will really matter into 'deep friendship' territory
its a marathon, not a sprint
Work hard at what you're good at. But, make sure you what you love on the side. Also, strength is everything.
Still fuck all of the girls and drink all of the alcohol, but go to class more often this time.
Spend as much of your freshman year in the Trip Chamber as possible.
Dear freshman me: Learn Lax/join a club. Rush a frat. Pick classes that interest you the most. Try to have more fun. And for fuck's sake, don't binge drink every weekend - It took me years to finally work that stuff off.
Dear Freshman Me,
Major in engineering, minor in economics. Don't play a sport your freshman year, you suck.
Sincerly, 2017 Me
Why would you major in engineering, in hindsight?
Because they think it's a fucking holy grail to jobs or some shit.
Good luck trying for that 3.5+ GPA.
As I go through my quarter-life crisis there are a few important things I wish I would have done more in university, something I am paying the price for right now with loneliness as a 20 something living in a big city.
I wish I would have engaged more with my classmates, been involved in more campus organizations and been serious about being involved in them (not just show up to a couple of meetings a semester like seriously been committed), especially being active on social media (LinkedIn and Instagram).
It is the language of millennials and I feel like I miss out on so much because events are coordinated through Facebook groups. I wish I had reached out more and connected to my classmates via LinkedIn so I would be sitting at 500+ connections right now, have had a lot more REAL followers on Instagram (not some phony bots but real people who know me), and really put myself as being part of campus life.
I look at my classmates who did it right and they enjoyed the benefits of it now. It isn't just the likes on photos but also knowing what events are going on, what fellow alumni are doing, and just catching up on old times with a network they feel they share something with.
I wish I would have really put myself out there in college and just really gotten involved on campus life. It would have been a rewarding experience and I would have met a lot more people that way, my social life would have been better instead of just going out trying to chat people up at campus bars.
Right now I feel a bit of pain inside of me knowing what a big mistake I made in my college days in regards to not getting involved enough. How I might never have the opportunity to make a lot of new friends and acquaintances with people around the same age as me going through the same things I am going through. It isn't the same when you join some random MeetUp group and are a 25 yr old in a group of 35 and 45 year olds.
In some ways my social life did get better AFTER college but I still feel like I missed out on something really big.
If you are going to get laid with a hot chick who you might never get laid with ever again, don't be so cheap and instead pay for a hotel. Your future, richer self would say money well spent. Later on in life, most likely you say why was I so cheap. With the app HotelsTonight maybe you can be cheap and have it all.
This assumes that for part of college you live at home with your little sister sleeping in the room next door, and your only options are a compact car with squeaky shocks or a blanket on the beach. Spend the money.
Whatever you decided to major in, get as close to a 4.0 as possible. It will help greatly in your post-college job search and also will set you up for grad school if you decide to go.
Don't sleep, just work hard. I, for one, need a bit of a social life to take a break when I'm working hard, so party hard, but study harder. Just get a 4.0.
I would tell myself to stop playing world of Warcraft and to look for internships. I would have also advised myself to transfer to a target/semi-target ASAP.
Don't write that fucking book. It's a shit idea and you're going to waste a lot of time on it. Find people who are like yourself and don't be afraid to reach out to them. Aim for a first class degree. Don't do management consulting. Don't turn down that girl.
Follow up with the people you've networked with - if they were willing to get on a call with you while you were looking for junior summer internships, keep them posted on where you landed. This way, when full-time recruiting season comes, it's simply another email or message to get started on full-time recruiting.
You've already done a lot of the work by reaching out to them and talking on the phone/meeting in person, all it takes is a bit more to maintain the relationship.
Quit. Go back to working optical. Don't sell drugs. Get into real estate.
Do not underestimate sales as a career.
Should have put everything I had into becoming a salesman right out of college instead of dicking around
Agreed. Had a sales internship when I was like 19 but kind of brushed it off. I could be an an Enterprise AE by now making a ton of money and all my loans paid off.
Smash more. College chicks are pretty easy.
I have actually found girls post-college to be easier than girls in college. They seem less prude, more desperate, and also it is easier to sleep around without anyone knowing about it
I have to disagree with you and agree with Uptown Girl
College was just so cliquish, at my school if you weren't in certain frats or playing a sport then you were SOL with hot girls who cared a ton about their friends thought of them, it was high school 2.0.
really learn how to be attentive to detail and thinking critically may sound the fluffiest of all skill traits but they are oh so important. i cannot stress how important this is. hahaha
be a muffican playa
Don't sweat the small stuff--anxiety gets you nowhere. Put in the work and trust that things will shake out the way they should.
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