Investment Banking for females - What is it like ?
Hi everyone,
I recently got interested in this as a possible career path. I did research on females in IB, but a lot of what I found was just about how horrible it is. Or I end up on pages about gold diggers targeting male IBers. Just trying to get some insight on how females are perceived in the field, and some experiences from you if you're female.
I always hear about the frat-like feel, models and bottles etc .. But where do the girls fit in here ? What is the male to female ratio like ? Do the females hang out separately from the males, or do they join in on the bottle popping ? What about the females on the higher ranks of this career ? What do you think is generally the kind of girl that goes for this field ?
About me: Girl. 20 yrs old, senior (BBA). Love finance, trade in my free time. Caribbean. Studying, born and currently living in Amsterdam, the Netherlands (moving to USA in the following years).
I know I have quite a bit going against me for this (foreigner currently, minority female, found out about IB late, attending foreign non-target university) .. Any advice is welcome.
Being a minority female does NOT go against you lol
This. To be more specific plenty of BB and non-BB banks have specific programs to add more females besides the normal summer internship path. Just look it up on their websites and apply. Being a minority also plays in your favour. Enjoy playing the gender card and race card as long as they are valid.
I'm not going to lie, this can be a tough field for women in the long run. You'll feel like you are being passed up on promotions or being let go because of your sex, and in some cases you may very well be correct. I've seen BBs discriminate against women, and personally know women who have settled sexual discrimination cases with BBs for substantial settlements. With that said, the workplace is far more inviting to women than it used to be. Obstacles will always exist no matter where you go, so if IB is really what you want then go for it.
I come from a non-IB background, but have spent quite a bit of time in male-dominated groups.
It can be a very hard line to walk, and you're constantly searching for balance in literally every aspect of your personality (be fun, but don't be TOO fun; don't get easily offended, but don't internalize the shit that really does upset you; be assertive and don't let people talk over you or dismiss your ideas, but don't come off as bitch so make sure you modify everything you say by making it seem like a question or a suggestion, etc etc etc). It's not so bad at the junior levels, but I think you can definitely see and feel it more as you get older.
Feel free to PM if you have any more specific questions about my experince.
To be fair, everything you said is pretty good advice for junior level, male bankers as well. A surprising amount comes down to attitude and a chip on your shoulder won't do you any more good than it will does that one dude that nobody likes because he's constantly spouting negativity.
From what I've seen as a dude, the women who are most successful are the ones who are competent, confident, and drama-free. The biggest mistake I've seen is women trying to imitate men. It's a mistake, because what a lot of people think "men" act like is usually not how the most successful men act. You've almost certainly got a massively better ability to read people than your male peers, better soft persuasion skills, and you look better. Be pleasant, be professional, and most of the younger guys wont' care. Can't speak for the older ones.
It is definitely doable. I am acquainted with one female at Barclays(some of you might know who I'm talking about) who has managed to wield a massive amount of influence over the company as an associate to where she is more or less a gatekeeper for MBA recruiting. She's very direct, very professional, and very people smart...and she didn't get to where she is by trying to by imitating someone else. She crafted and managed her own unique brand.
Fair point. A lot of the people i know who are just starting out, men and women, have a hard time finding a good balance. but I also think mistakes are less easily forgiven when you're a woman.
Also, I always see guys on here complaining about "drama" from female coworkers and I have not once experienced that, and I used to work in an almost totally female dominated industry....
I cannot echo this enough. There is a female in a high level position at my firm and whenever she visits we go out for drinks where she spends the entire time trying to be one of the guys. Making stripper jokes, talking about football, etc. I mean not in a natural way either. It is constant during the entire conversation and obviously forced. Maybe some insecure little betas find it endearing. However,I find it annoying and it makes me think I can't trust anything she says since she's always putting on a grotesque façade. The world has changed so much I think it best to just be yourself. Yes there may be some misogynist leftovers from the Madmen days, but their numbers are dwindling and with that their power over your career.
Conversely if you are some crazy femnazi who constantly spouts bullshit 77% statistics and the like, no one will like you no matter how progressive. If that's really who you are you would be better served going into law or journalism as your passions will not align with anything in finance.
There are very few bottles at the junior levels so that shouldn't be a foremost concern.
Like anywhere, you'll form friendships and business relationships with the people you gel with best - a lot of these may be males, as there are more males in FO banking than females. There are downsides to being a female in banking, but there are also upsides (the unfortunate reality is there can be downsides to being female in many professional environments; it's not limited to banking).
If you're interested in banking, you shouldn't let stereotypes associated with gender dissuade you. Whether you enjoy it is pretty dependent on your fit within your team, department and then bank more broadly - which will also be true for your male peers.
~
Get ready for the BB virgins to swarm wif the immature jokes gl.. you will feel like Leonidas vs Xerxes army
FT: "Women seen as ‘sex objects’ at investment bank" (Originally Posted: 09/15/2015)
From the FT: "Women seen as ‘sex objects’ at investment bank":
Am I being sexist by thinking that she is a moron and that there is no case whatsoever? She sounds like the kind of person that would sue you for keeping eye contact with her for too long... Links: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-15/jefferies-sued-over-o…- http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/3b79f126-5bb9-11e5-9846-de406ccb37f2.htm…
I don't have FT subscription so can't read the article, but would agree with the headline to the extent that any woman who is moderately attractive or better is broadly seen by men as a sex object at an investment bank. Not solely as a sex object, but it's not inconsequential either.
If average or below, they are valued more for their work.
Without taking a view on the merits of her case, she could be taking a smart route, assuming she's not looking for a long term career in finance.
It's not too dissimilar to running a spoiler role in contract negotiations. If you're in a weak position, have a chance to get paid by bargaining for "just go away" money and it's not going to damage your longer term financial position, then taking this approach could well produce the best financial result.
Bloomberg article. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-15/jefferies-sued-over-o…-
I don't think her claims of 'not being invited to the ski trip' and 'male colleagues dancing with other women on office outing', etc. would really get her any settlement.. If roles were reversed, ie, more women in the office and male colleagues getting mad when female colleagues dance with people outside their office party - it would be impossible for anyone to claim injustice..
We seem to be missing the most important information in the article in relation to this case: Is she hot?
https://www.couchsurfing.com/people/dalalalaoui
Well, since she's on couchsurfing, I'd say she's begging for a hot dicking
She can get it.
This kind of stuff is always interesting though. I can understand a male dominated workplace being very hostile to someone, but commenting on an attractive woman (or even a little rib to one's country...) shouldn't be near enough to constitute a case. From the details in the article? Hopefully Jefferies gets this garbage dismissed- seems like someone who was bored / shitty / entitled and wanted to get some quick cash because they couldn't handle a workplace with any more intensity than what's found on the set of Reading Rainbow.
It's a flimsy case, should be dismissed. +1.
Women seen as sex objects at investment bank Women seen as sex objects at Starbucks Women seen as sex objects at public restroom Women seen as sex objects on F train Women seen as sex objects at CFA Camp Women seen as sex objects at CVS checkout line Women seen as sex objects at 2:37pm in the afternoon
?????
Dammit, you beat me to it. Well played.
That's a headline grabber, and she does have a point. She works in credit sales which is notoriously fratty and male-dominated. But it's very much a meritocracy - if she had important clients going on the trip and THEY wanted her to go, then she would be going. It sounds to me like she wasn't a key cog in the wheel, hence they left her out.
Clients want to hang out with fun salespeople, not ones who huff and puff about not being included.
As we say in my country "you weren't crying when you were eating the meatballs". Why is she bringing it up now and not when it actually happened? Because it's a convenient time to come out of the woodwork and get some publicity and possibly financial rewards. Welcome to the pussification of the Western world. Being a professional victim is becoming more and more widespread.
Even the lawyer gives her the reason why she wasn't invited - didn't have any clients that were invited to the ski trip. Case closed.
This just in...men seen as 'ATM machines' at local bar
she is fucking ugly bitch just wants an early retirement.
Is career in IB unrealistic, unsuitable for female? (Originally Posted: 12/31/2016)
Are the media portrayals of IB accurate in that it is a field full of cut throat alpha males working insane hours high on things and using f word in each and every sentence? Are there segments within IB that are more fitting for females? (I am talking about regular females not nutting ones)
Does Harvard, Wharton, etc do more than just getting one into the door?
Thanks!
Why not try breaking into london or Amsterdam IB first? You're a VU student right? So should be doable if your grades and extra curriculars are good!
Follow this advise, just try to do an internship in Amsterdam. If I am not mistaken you have some local banks who take on interns all year round for ±4 month internships. They are not so stringent on language requirements, hours should be decent, and given that the Dutch graduate later, the other interns should be not too immature
OP, I'm not saying this to be rude, but arguably the most important trait of a successful analyst is being resourceful. This question has been asked hundreds of times on WSO and always is answered the same way: if you work hard, no one cares if you're male, female, black, white, or a martian. Again, not trying to be rude, but this has been asked and answered ad-nauseum.
can you provide some ideas or examples of being resourceful? i just don't want to misunderstand your def.
Not to mention that is it much easier to get the IB job for a female in the current market.
As mentioned, this has been answered many times. From investment bankers I know, most of the media's portrayal is exaggerated. Yes hours are long and you have to be driven to win. But that doesn't mean you go around swearing and yelling in people's faces - usually IBankers do the opposite. You need to have a competitive drive and be a people's person. The industry has many females nowadays just like engineering. You are far from alone if you choose to do IB. If you are acquiescent and fear being a in a tough, competitive environment, then you shouldn't go into IB whether you are boy or girl. Stop assuming girls are somehow weaker than males and therefore are unfit in IB. There are guys and girls who do well and don't do well in IB.
excellent post, thanks. even if this topic has been addressed and discussed however many times prior to my getting here asking the questions, i still ask it one more time ;) simply because it is important to get a personal feel to things, and not take things for granted third hand. imo, it increases the chance of making a better decision. things change, you know, day by day. i will kick the tires 100 times with my own shoes if that is what it takes for me to get a good feel when some others feel perfectly comfortable taking just a glance. to each his or her own.
although it sounds great---i am not being argumentative--that more females are getting into fields previously dominated by males, i think it is still an uphill battle thus important to get a feel to the environment and culture. there may be unwarranted traditions, but there may also be some practical considerations, that is, some fields are better suited for one sex vs the other for understandable reasons. say, most top surgeons are males. heck, most top OB GYNs are males!
if i take your comment as well the above others to heart, though not necessarily a consensus, i find it heartening that a competent female is not persuaded to try elsewhere at the doorstep.
OP's question throws up huge red flags to me. It should be common sense by the time you reach adulthood that what's between your legs doesn't make or break you in the vast majority of professions, finance work being no exception.
i am not too sure what red flags really mean here, but glad to see your mention of "vast majority", which means that there are still some fields out there that are more men dominant and that loops back to my original question. i did not, mind you, say, it is men dominant or both sexes being equal in IB. I simply asked the question to get some feedbacks.
anyone who has reached adulthood should have been made fully aware that sexism exists. to deny that is naive at best. however, that is not my thesis here that that is a digress to assert some basic common sense. in other words, despite this and that, what should be done, i want to get more color on the culture in IB community. an adult outside that community does not necessarily know! therefore i ask! in fact, one post suggested that it is actually easier for females now to get into IB. IMAGINE MY CONFUSION!
OP, you should be fine. I did it so you could do it. Just make sure you are competitive and exceptionally qualified for the position. No one cares if you are a guy or a girl in finance, they just want to hire the most qualified candidate (boy or girl) and that analyst could do a good work.
And definitely not unrealistic! As long as you network hard, personable and know your stuff in interviews, then you can do it!
I have several female colleagues and they expressed there are a lot of challenges (some obvious, some not): - Colleagues will sometimes change their tone in mixed company (you won't be one of the "boys"). Or hold doors open for you (chivalrous, but treat you differently) - Sometimes hard to get mentorship. Male senior bankers might be very conscious about having a closed door meeting with a female junior (or travel together for meetings, or get too close in general), whereas they wouldn't have a second thought with a male junior. Also, females bankers (at any level) are less common. - With some diversity programs some male bankers will wonder if you are a diversity hire or if you are actually good at what you do (will affect your staffings and responsibilities - a proxy for your professional development). That said, I've always encouraged women (and anyone for that matter) to get in any way you can (diversity program or not). I feel like IBD is relatively meritocratic and once you are in (no matter how you got in: diversity program, your parents are well connected, you just happen to be brilliant / hardworking), you have to make your own name off your own hard work - How to dress? What is appropriate vs. not.
Having said that, I think the environment has changed. It's not the wild stories you'd hear about from back in the 80's. IBD has become much more corporate (although it is weighted in terms of the gender split vs. other career paths or the general population).
Good luck!
IB for an MBA Female: How to know if it's for you? (Originally Posted: 10/24/2010)
I am a first-year MBA female at a top-10 MBA program, weighing an offer to join a BB for the summer. I have three questions for the experts:
What are some key quality of life indicators to try to find the answers to as you evaluate banks? (e.g. do they look down on breaking for gym time, how many weeks most associates take for vacation... if any, etc). It would be great to hear from anyone with answers to these questions already.
Am I crazy for even considering IB as a women w/ no fin services background?
Are there alternatives to IB that let you live in NYC on a comfortable salary (~$120k), while working
[quote=Gekko21] 3. Are there alternatives to IB that let you live in NYC on a comfortable salary (~$120k), while working
I don't know. Average starting salary for a T10 MBA in a variety of fields is very high. I doubt non finance Wharton graduates are making 65K a year or something like that. Suppose this woman has 5 years of serious brand management or marketing experience behind her at a huge company. She gets an MBA in finance from Columbia or something and goes into a non banking role. I would assume her salary would be 80-90ish with a bonus.
i did get an email from a cornell mba on being a "game girl" for poker night.. she was pretty cute but still... you got into a decent MBA program and still want to be paid for looking pretty and fetch me drinks?
I will pay you 120k/yr to be my secretary 2 hrs/day.
Average salary + signing bonus for any top ~20 school is 95+20. Obviously that looks a lot better in TX v. NY, but if 120 is decent to you, it seems readily attainable. Obviously averages can be skewed but that provides a baseline.
I am curious as to how a 1st MBA already has a summer associate offer considering recruiting is just now getting started and interviews won't be for another couple of months.
Also curious as to where in the recruiting process you got the idea that a.) you would be taking any vacation, b.) having any free time.
Hi everyone,
Thanks for your feedback. Please keep it coming! Yes, I have an offer already -- I received it through an accelerated recruiting program over the summer.
Which divisions work shorter hours besides FIG coverage (in some banks) and non-M&A product groups?
Great point -- Consulting and corp fin in the few major MNCs that have offices in NYC are the current Plan B, C options.
Free time: What I mean by "free time" is the likelihood of sleeping 8 hours a night more often than once a week and being able to make it to the gym pseudo regularly. Dinners with friends seem like gravy.
Vacation: There are two banks I've heard of where the associates typically take 2 weeks vacation of their 4 weeks offered, even if they bring their Blackberrys with them.
I am on the trading side and two weeks are forced by most banks
I've read FIG groups are heavier not lighter. Equity sales and trading prolly
Ah, the old "print in all colors initiative"?
8 hours a night more than once a week seems reasonable if you take aggregate hours slept over the year and apply them on a nightly basis, but my impression is that there will be many weeks where a night of 8 hours sleep is a pipe dream, especially more than one.
Shorter hours: Try ECM/DCM
Or just go for the weakest group if you don't want to work that hard.
I know an Associate in Restructuring at BBs that works 9-9:30am - 7-8pm. I'm sure of this because he's my roommate. BUT he's a direct Analyst-Associate promote, has been doing this for 5 years, so he's obviously very efficient by now and doesn't need to put in much face time, which won't be the case for you.
Also, with the ECM/DCM guys, even though their hours are shorter, they still work 6:30am - 9-10pm, and that will suck if you're not a morning person like me.
Pub Fin FTW?
Check out ER. You'll easily clear 100K your first year and work decent hours compared to banking. Exit ops include hedge funds and mutal funds, or PE and such if you try. Get in a boring industry and sure you can go to the gym (I know some groups that do). After 2/3 years, you'll be making closer to $200k. Senior guys (VP/MD) make $400k - $800k.
Hi Sk8,
Do you think I can get into ER w/o a CFA? I have been talking to some ER groups but it just seems impossible to break into unless you've got one, and Master's in Financial Engineering, or you've come from banking.
Didn't believe it at first, but I've seen the contracts from 2 different people. It's all true.
IBD Exit opps for girls (Originally Posted: 02/20/2014)
I'm a female first year analyst at a BB in London. I know it's early days, but I'd like to know what my exit opps would be. I've heard that it's harder for girls to transition into PE/HF, is that really the case?
look for posts by ItzWhitneyBItch , bankerella , snatch , and chicandtoughness . I can speculate on what it's like for women, but I think you'd get better advice by looking at those users' post history
Regardless? Or is that not even worth discussing?
I was partially being sarcastic. However, I think the comment probably holds some merit, as unfair as it may be. In addition, I don't think that it relates only to finance, but in business in general. I think from a hiring standpoint, for whatever reason, appearance absolutely can play a role in the decision-making process. I also think that, again for whatever reason, it probably plays a bigger role when the hiring decision pertains to a female.
*Disclosure: I am in no way sexist, and these are simply comments derived from observation.
I think it could work in your favor, then. Beyond my somewhat sarcastic comment and follow up rant on the role of looks in the context of hiring decisions, however, I can't really provide you with any other perspective as I would only be speculating. Maybe someone else on here can provide some good insight.
I don't know about hedge funds but I would actually think your chances in PE are stronger than for guys, all else being equal.
There is a very small amount of women in PE (similar to banking) and dependent on the group you will probably be more interesting to them for adding something "different" to the group, assuming they like you. Smart women who actually want to stay in finance and have a good attitude are not common.
Based on what I've heard, it is harder for girls to break into PE. Headhunters will give preference to white males
Very few women in PE/HFs, but I don't think it's a lack of talent as much as it is a personal decision to not pursue that route.
@gmfb Not sure why that would be the case - care to elaborate?
@abcdefghij I would agree.
I think it is easier for a female to get into PE than a male (at least in the US). Limited Partners have certain mandates on how they need to invest their money and investing in funds with diversity helps them hit quotas -- like it or not. Other than this, I don't see any reason why it would be any easier / harder for a female to get a PE job.
I can think of two reasons...
If you are looking for an excuse for your own failures op look elsewhere, if anything it's easier.
Any job a girl will apply for in finance is easier to get all things being equal due to diversity quotas.
I don't think it works that way at all.
it doesn't, at all. anyone who actually thinks it's easier for a woman to get a job anywhere in finance, especially IB or PE, is beyond clueless. sexism is alive and well. it's possible, but you are, as you seem to be picking up on, unfortunately at a big disadvantage relative to your white male peers.
Aspire to make this list....
Hedge Funds’ Hottest Assets: The Ladies of Investor Relations
The second one looks like Rashida Jones
Best exit opps are probably stay at home mom, marriage ext..
Every company wants to show how diverse they are to prove how they're not sexist and different. GS and other financial firms have programs that help women get financial jobs, I don't see equivalent programs for non-minority males. Also there are hard quotas of workers that need to be minorities and women to take government funds.
You should therefore see that if you have 2 equally qualified candidates of different sexes, a women checks more boxes than a non-minority male.
Now before a lot of you go apeshit, i said the average women will be less qualified than the average male, this however does not imply that because you are a women in finance that you are less qualified than a man. Individual cases and broad statistics differ.
Has anyone else noticed that HR is normally attractive white females at the BBs? I have literally not met one person in HR that was a guy.
Women in IB? (Originally Posted: 01/09/2016)
Have read some stuff on this forum but it is not that substantial/kind of outdated. What is IB like for women? Has much changed or is the office still a pseudo-frathouse with clients won at bars and strip clubs? Probably sounds naive but not looking for bullshit just real answers.
I have seen that at the lower levels, but even the higher ups in HR tend to be male at banks from my experience.
Not just BB's....although I'd scratch the "attractive" part in the majority of most cases across the board, although I have noticed a preference towards attractive ones at some firms. I've heard stories that at some businesses(not just in finance) senior managers treat HR like their personal harems and staff it accordingly.
As a female, I've been recruiting for IB this year and have been overwhelmingly pleased with the support and steps that firms are taking to improve the workplace for women and attract top talent. GS, MS, JP, BAML, Barclays, RBC, and Evercore each hosted all-day women's events where you can speak to bankers at all levels that have balanced families and banking long-term. Many of my male colleagues have perceived being a female as an advantage in the recruiting process, however, there is definitely a minimum threshold to cross to get an offer. Banking is inherently less appealing to females that are considering families where long hours are difficult to balance, but all of the women I met communicated the culture of respect and equality at their institutions. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk!
Being female in IB is like being the star in The Houston 620.
Safety concerns for women in Ibanking? (Originally Posted: 04/28/2013)
Just a very short question: Do women i-bankers usually leave the office as late as their male co-workers do? I mean, shouldn't they be concerned about their own safety walking alone at 2-4 am everyday?
black cars... and if for whatever reason you can't get one then I am sure you can afford a taxi once in a while
This is a very valid concern. Yes, we are expected to stay as late as the males. I work in SF, and we are told to take taxis home, which can still be dangerous late at night. The world is a much more threatening place for women than men. All I can tell you is to be aware of what is going on during the ride. Also, I usually text the cab's license number to my parents and boyfriend and talk to someone over the phone for however long I am in the cab.
The firm will pay for your cab home after 10PM.
No, don't worry. Women analysts are expected to go home and make their husbands dinner at 5pm while the male analysts work into the night.
Is this a serious question? Why would female analysts work any different hours than men?
It's not like you're going to be working out of the hood in Detroit or anything. Women do what all reasonable adults do: exercise caution, stay in well lit areas and take taxis or something. Same thing you would do if you were leaving a club at 2-4am. Heck, I went to grad school in an urban environment and routinely walked home alone at 3am.
Genuinely curious, is the whole texting your taxi license number to a friend a new thing? I've never seen people do it until recently.
Also, Uber. You'll never take a regular cab again. Those guys are super vetted. If they drop below a 4 rating out of 5, they have to basically beg to stay in the program.
Basically like a strip club. Girls usually give out a ton of lap dances on office chairs while guys slip dollar bills into their thongs
General Advice To Women Post (Originally Posted: 03/30/2010)
Looking around WSO there are few specific posts that regard women in finance and they don't cover that much. So how about you write a piece of advice here for women that want to land careers in IBD or generally finance?
Let me give you some pointers :
Any randomness is welcome I just think it would be great if the girls on WSO had a general reference post. Off course feel free to reply with : "Double D's are a prerequisite for IBD" but please give some helpful tips too :D
Yeah watch "Wolf of Wall Street," OP
It's incredibly accurate. Getting your head shaved for comp'ed breast implants is one of the best perks of the industry.
reply...........................................
whatever i tell you to
1... biggest advice to any female looking to break into finance... drop the feminista thing, it won't get you anywhere. It's ok to be bitchy, and in fact may help you in certain instances, but don't ever, ever pull the feminist card. There's nothing worse than a person who chalks up their own personal failings to an "anti-me" thing. It's nothing more than an excuse for being a slacker.
In my experience (MM firm, about 4k in size) there is absolutely no discrimination against women. If you are bright, driven, and add value, you will succeed... regardless of what may or may not be hanging down yunder. There's no question that the C-suites of Wall Street are dominated by men... but look at the generation. Management generally is in their 40-60's, that puts the start of their career in the between the 60's and 80's... during that time, there was definitely a good deal of sexism in the office. I'd argue that's largely gone the way of the wind.
Come to think of it, I have a 10am interview with a very impressive female candidate. The fact that she is a woman has absolutely no, nada, nix to do with whether we bring her back for a round 2.
Great tip thanks, i think many women that want to break into finance try to act like men which ends up looking bitchy
There's a general reference post for men?
OH WAIT.
Why do people feel the need to make "____ for asian/black/women/LGBT/etc. analysts" posts? You're still a monkey at the end of the day.
(froufrou isn't bad though.)
because there actually is a difference?
I'd have to agree with the above post. Don't act like a man. You're not , and it just looks weird. But that being said if you're super nice then you'd probably get taken advantage of, so for example, in an interview setting just be yourself. If you are super nice then you probably don't fit in the typical banking environment. After all, you don't want to land a job on the notion of you being someone completely different than you are. You will eventually get tired and want to quit becuase you can't stand to act like someone you're not. I'm an analyst, and female, and find that the majority of women in this industry are complete bchs. Sorry to say but it's true! I've met a few that are exceptions, but it's almost as if they're trying to prove something - something like "I'm tough, I can handle these crazy men, etc." And it just seems so phony. It's ok to be feminine and a woman AND still be great at what you do. This is my opinion anyway, and must say, that I've been rated highly this past year, and am still feminine and not a complete a to others around me to make a point. It's been working for me so far. You will find that the majority of older women in the industry are more on the b**chy side. It may have a lot to do with the fact that when they started out, there were almost zero women, so they felt pressured to be a certain way, and they're personalities may have rubbed off on the women below them... etc. But just remember that you can do a GREAT job and still have fun on the job. It doesn't have to be miserable. In terms of dress - this is tricky. It depends on where you work. I think you will see who wears what around the office. But if it's an interview, stick to the black/brown/grey suit and plain shirt. Don't draw attention to yourself, you're just an analyst. And minimum makeup and hair. Once you work on the job you can get a feel for what's accepted and what's not. Keep in mind though that just becuase there are other girls in the office wearing a certain type of dress doesn't necessarily mean it's ok... on my team women talk crap all the time about what some girls wear to work. It's actually funny, but seriously this is a corporate job so don't think you can wear short skirts or low cut blouses or even open toed shoes... but again, it really depends on your environment and what type of role in banking you have. Someone in risk may be able to get away with more casual wear than someone in M&A.
My two cents:
What to wear during interviews / at work Invest in a nice Brooks Brothers suit. You can get a decent one on clearance instore or online. If you do wear a black suit, don't wear a white shirt. Your purse should be a conservative business tote. Once you have the job then you can be a girl: pink, loud purses, colorful jewelry, etc
Do you remember an incident with a female colleague that you find worth mentioning? My most awkward moment was interviewing SAs last year. I walked into the room and the candidate asked me "Are those jeans?" I had on dark blue-looking jeans. Interesting considering she was the one interviewing and I already had a job.
How are women generally treated? is there prejudice? Not treated differently but you can see the prejudice once you take a glance up the payscale. Don't dwell on it, just work harder.
Tips for office politics ? My advice is learning the difference between who matters and who thinks they matter. You have to make the people who matter happy: Senior Associates, MDs. Winning brownie points with fellow interns/SAs is good but doesn't really change anything.
As a recruiter how would you like a woman to interview? Last year I got to participate in Superday and I ended up pulling a girl to the side bc she thought she was interviewing for Dancing with the stars: wild hair, opened blouse, shiny purse and platform stilettos. Keep in mind you only get one first impression and no Associate will ever hire a Paris Hilton.
Bitchy VS nice? NEITHER. Nice will get you pushed over. Bitchy will get you pushed out the door. Wall St isn't the hair salon or the Gap. Leave the bitchyness at home.
Double D's in an IB office? In my wildest dreams...
In S&T be able to hang with the men around you too, if someone gives you shit give him shit back, most woman I've seen at Super Days have done a good job and do have good or better odds than us white upperclass males of getting Juniors. They screw up when they are on the desk, here's an example:
MD: XYZ desk's PnL kicked out ass last week, you guys really suck. Claire just walk around their desk, all day, take your shirt off if you have to.
Good Claire: No, I think they'd be more distracted if you walked around with your shirt off....but you taking your shirt off might cause the market to crash, so let me know so I can move all our money to gold.
Bad Claire: You are a pig and I am a woman hear me ROAR! *Pulls out an electric razor and begins shaving head** I don't need to TAKE YOU SHIT ANYMORE TEDDY Rossevelt, I've got news for you WE CAN VOTE AND OWN LAND. So keep your hands to your self, OPRAH, HILLARY CLINTON, BARBRA STREISAND.
I think this blog post I wrote a while ago applies:
http://wherethemoney.at/careers/why-most-ceos-are-men/
I'd second hanging out with the guys part. I remember sitting down with an MD during my summer stint on an S&T desk. It was a sell day and I remember him asking me, "Why do you want to be in S&T? Honestly. Are you an idealist who wants the save the world or something?" and I just responded "..I just want to make a shitton of money." Honest? yes. Did I read him correctly? Yep. He subsequently became a great mentor that summer. I never went into S&T but we're still in contact.
Definitely important to maintain your femininity. There is nothing worse than being one of 'those' women who try and act like men. Guys absolutely hate that, and I'd say especially as the older guys are starting to retire, etc., the younger ones hate it even more. At my PE shop, there are very few girls on the deal/origination side. Luckily, the guys aren't spewing machismo. But, it's always good to remind them that you're a girl in some way or another. In my experience, guys in finance just want to work with a girl who's cool, smart and does good work. Pretty much the same thing they look for in guys. They're not running around looking to work with d-bags.
Bottom line, don't be something you're not. be firm, but not a real bitch who can't play well with others. Be nice, but don't be a pushover. Don't go into banking with self-doubts because you're a girl. Sure, there are definitely times where it will be awkward (guys who do just 'guy' things, talking about girls, etc) but it's best to just go with the flow in those instances.
My advice is to go join hr.
Everyone says don't be bitchy, but most of the successful women on WS are bitches ! So maybe that's part of what it takes for a woman to be successful on WS.
double d's are usually nasty, a nice C is best because they wont sag and look like floppy sandwich buns.
lets just say if you're hot you can get away with so much...
also you never see a big whale of a female analyst let alone a tubby one in my experience. I would advise you to lose weight if you're chubby because that will work against you. and bitchy vs nice, how about confident?
Confident / bitchy often is a fine line in my opinion... Like what could a hot banker get away with, any examples or are you assuming? i can imagine being hired for looks, so the seniors have something nice to look at but not much more than that..
I have actually started to watch my diet and exercise more just to look more put together and fit though i dont think i will ever be rail thin
double ds are aprerequisite to ibanking.
As someone woman have called a "pig"/slapped in the face multiple times in my life, it's pretty easy to fit in/change misogynistic frat type coworkers mind; just do what any good analyst would do: Turn in great work, have a good attitude/easy to be around, lose the chip on the shoulder/get over yourself, be friendly/nice but not mealy, & keep controversial opinions to the bear minimum.
And the hot thing. First girls need to judge their "hot level" before they want try to leverage it. I've meet plenty of girls that think they're gorgeous because their friends tell them so. Girls will say other girls are attractive (in a straight way) by their personality, how "cute" they dress, how much weight they've lost, etc. Guys equate "hot'ness" to legs, tits, ass, & attractiveness of facial features (generally speaking). In all sincerity, if you haven't been known for those (the latter) things most of your life or haven't had a ton of the more desirable men in your social circles blowing you up all the time, then you probably won't have that type of power over the guys in your office. If those things do apply, just don't be a stone cold bitch, like the coupon cunt from from above, be nice, and you've got pretty good get out of jail card. IMO.
naturally being hot allows people to trust you more easily and assume good things about you without really knowing you; it's a natural reaction hardwired into us. it's like having a lot of offers when you're interviewing, because you are desirable to many men and women you have the power to choose and power in relationships earns much respect.
Seriously, don't give me this crap about it being hard to be a woman. If your not a retard and don't look like a complete land beast, you should be able to get a job easier than white males. I think this is a reason alot of females don't rise as high, because they don't have to really stand out and be a superstar to get a job / get promoted, whereas white males do have to dominate, because there are a million of us, so only the cream of the crop get hired.
Oh, and the having babies thing. Just doesn't seem conducive to the whole work 100 hrs a week deal, you know, with like 3 months of maternity leave and whatnot.
I talked with female associate from Bear Stearns. She said that being a woman in Finance put her at a great advantage over most of the men she worked with.
I guess she knew how to leverage her looks, personality, and hard work.
^^ This isn't true. If you're a legit head turner (8.5+) you can get away with some pretty serious bullshit.
i
If you're willing to use your looks to get your foot in the door, you had better be willing to do more than that. Common courtesy alone would dictate that you should be willing to give it to every analyst in the office. That's just common decency for goodness sakes.
I actually agree with the guys on this one. Start how you want to finish. If you are selling sex to get in then you have to sell sex to stay in. Sell your skills instead!
Banks are under the microscope too much now. They're wayyyyy more PC now. Please see "Law Profession" for people who still know how to have a good time (not all this PC red tape)... can still expense, be crude, edgy, fun?
Lawyers that are fun and edgy? You must live in an alternate universe. Lawyers go into the legal professional because they are dry, boring and risk-averse. Lawyers are also well informed of the legal ramifications of certain types of behavior, well before they act on it. They are by definition not edgy or fun.
double-Ds are not a prerequisite, but they are a perquisite for the rest of us.
Here is a tip: learn to swallow.
Says the guy who probably couldn't get laid in a morgue.
this is crazy discussion..i have heard lots bout lack of ethics in I banks and still feel as long u know ur "job" u r indispensable for any firm in any sector..:))
and i appreciate dis site for good job
I think confidence is huge. I had a meeting with a female CEO of a MM private equity firm, and she was the most confident person that I have talked to. However, she was also very down to earth at the same time. Just be yourself and have fun - everything will work out.
Women in IBD? (Originally Posted: 07/24/2018)
Any executives in your respective banking groups? Colleagues in other professional service lines say their female executives are more cut throat than their male equivalents.
Curious to hear your thoughts.
Can confirm.
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