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General Advice To Women Post
 

froufrou's picture
IB
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 6:46am
career-woman.jpg

Looking around WSO there are few specific posts that regard women in finance and they don't cover that much.
So how about you write a piece of advice here for women that want to land careers in IBD or generally finance?

Let me give you some pointers :

- What to wear during interviews / at work
- Do you remember an incident with a female colleague that you find worth mentioning?
- How are women generally treated? is there prejudice?
- Tips for office politics ?
- As a recruiter how would you like a woman to interview?
- Bitchy VS nice?

Any randomness is welcome I just think it would be great if the girls on WSO had a general reference post.
Off course feel free to reply with : "Double D's are a prerequisite for IBD" but please give some helpful tips too :D

Tags:
Cornelius's picture

reply........................

(King Kong, 1,707
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 9:02am

reply...........................................

froufrou:

- What to wear during interviews / at work

whatever i tell you to

------------
I'm making it up as I go along.

AVPGuerilla's picture

#1... biggest advice to any

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 9:13am

#1... biggest advice to any female looking to break into finance... drop the feminista thing, it won't get you anywhere. It's ok to be bitchy, and in fact may help you in certain instances, but don't ever, ever pull the feminist card. There's nothing worse than a person who chalks up their own personal failings to an "anti-me" thing. It's nothing more than an excuse for being a slacker.

In my experience (MM firm, about 4k in size) there is absolutely no discrimination against women. If you are bright, driven, and add value, you will succeed... regardless of what may or may not be hanging down yunder. There's no question that the C-suites of Wall Street are dominated by men... but look at the generation. Management generally is in their 40-60's, that puts the start of their career in the between the 60's and 80's... during that time, there was definitely a good deal of sexism in the office. I'd argue that's largely gone the way of the wind.

Come to think of it, I have a 10am interview with a very impressive female candidate. The fact that she is a woman has absolutely no, nada, nix to do with whether we bring her back for a round 2.

Step 1: Dream the Dream || Step 2: Live the Dream || Step 3: Rinse, repeat.

singularity's picture

There's a general reference

IB
(Baboon, 148
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 9:15am

There's a general reference post for men?

OH WAIT.

Why do people feel the need to make "____ for asian/black/women/LGBT/etc. analysts" posts? You're still a monkey at the end of the day.

(froufrou isn't bad though.)

froufrou's picture

because there actually is a

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 9:20am

because there actually is a difference?

froufrou's picture

AssociateGuerilla

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 9:23am
AssociateGuerilla:

#1... biggest advice to any female looking to break into finance... drop the feminista thing, it won't get you anywhere. It's ok to be bitchy, and in fact may help you in certain instances, but don't ever, ever pull the feminist card. There's nothing worse than a person who chalks up their own personal failings to an "anti-me" thing. It's nothing more than an excuse for being a slacker.

Great tip thanks,
i think many women that want to break into finance try to act like men which ends up looking bitchy

smorris2099's picture

I'd have to agree with the

IB
(Chimp, 13
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 11:11am

I'd have to agree with the above post. Don't act like a man. You're not , and it just looks weird. But that being said if you're super nice then you'd probably get taken advantage of, so for example, in an interview setting just be yourself. If you are super nice then you probably don't fit in the typical banking environment. After all, you don't want to land a job on the notion of you being someone completely different than you are. You will eventually get tired and want to quit becuase you can't stand to act like someone you're not.
I'm an analyst, and female, and find that the majority of women in this industry are complete b**chs. Sorry to say but it's true! I've met a few that are exceptions, but it's almost as if they're trying to prove something - something like "I'm tough, I can handle these crazy men, etc." And it just seems so phony. It's ok to be feminine and a woman AND still be great at what you do.
This is my opinion anyway, and must say, that I've been rated highly this past year, and am still feminine and not a complete a** to others around me to make a point. It's been working for me so far.
You will find that the majority of older women in the industry are more on the b**chy side. It may have a lot to do with the fact that when they started out, there were almost zero women, so they felt pressured to be a certain way, and they're personalities may have rubbed off on the women below them... etc. But just remember that you can do a GREAT job and still have fun on the job. It doesn't have to be miserable.
In terms of dress - this is tricky. It depends on where you work. I think you will see who wears what around the office. But if it's an interview, stick to the black/brown/grey suit and plain shirt. Don't draw attention to yourself, you're just an analyst. And minimum makeup and hair. Once you work on the job you can get a feel for what's accepted and what's not. Keep in mind though that just becuase there are other girls in the office wearing a certain type of dress doesn't necessarily mean it's ok... on my team women talk crap all the time about what some girls wear to work. It's actually funny, but seriously this is a corporate job so don't think you can wear short skirts or low cut blouses or even open toed shoes... but again, it really depends on your environment and what type of role in banking you have. Someone in risk may be able to get away with more casual wear than someone in M&A.

moneyneversleeps2's picture

My two cents: - What to wear

IB
(Orangutan, 256
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 11:24am

My two cents:

- What to wear during interviews / at work
Invest in a nice Brooks Brothers suit. You can get a decent one on clearance instore or online. If you do wear a black suit, don't wear a white shirt. Your purse should be a conservative business tote. Once you have the job then you can be a girl: pink, loud purses, colorful jewelry, etc

- Do you remember an incident with a female colleague that you find worth mentioning?
My most awkward moment was interviewing SAs last year. I walked into the room and the candidate asked me "Are those jeans?" I had on dark blue-looking jeans. Interesting considering she was the one interviewing and I already had a job.

- How are women generally treated? is there prejudice?
Not treated differently but you can see the prejudice once you take a glance up the payscale. Don't dwell on it, just work harder.

- Tips for office politics ?
My advice is learning the difference between who matters and who thinks they matter. You have to make the people who matter happy: Senior Associates, MDs. Winning brownie points with fellow interns/SAs is good but doesn't really change anything.

- As a recruiter how would you like a woman to interview?
Last year I got to participate in Superday and I ended up pulling a girl to the side bc she thought she was interviewing for Dancing with the stars: wild hair, opened blouse, shiny purse and platform stilettos. Keep in mind you only get one first impression and no Associate will ever hire a Paris Hilton.

- Bitchy VS nice?
NEITHER. Nice will get you pushed over. Bitchy will get you pushed out the door. Wall St isn't the hair salon or the Gap. Leave the bitchyness at home.

rebelcross's picture

froufrou wrote: Off course

IB
(King Kong, 1,466
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 11:29am
froufrou:

Off course feel free to reply with : "Double D's are a prerequisite for IBD" but please give some helpful tips too :D

Double D's in an IB office? In my wildest dreams...

m.c.trader's picture

In S&T be able to hang with

ST
(Orangutan, 331
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 11:47am

In S&T be able to hang with the men around you too, if someone gives you shit give him shit back, most woman I've seen at Super Days have done a good job and do have good or better odds than us white upperclass males of getting Juniors. They screw up when they are on the desk, here's an example:

MD: XYZ desk's PnL kicked out ass last week, you guys really suck. Claire just walk around their desk, all day, take your shirt off if you have to.

Good Claire: No, I think they'd be more distracted if you walked around with your shirt off....but you taking your shirt off might cause the market to crash, so let me know so I can move all our money to gold.

Bad Claire: You are a pig and I am a woman hear me ROAR! *Pulls out an electric razor and begins shaving head** I don't need to TAKE YOU SHIT ANYMORE TEDDY Rossevelt, I've got news for you WE CAN VOTE AND OWN LAND. So keep your hands to your self, OPRAH, HILLARY CLINTON, BARBRA STREISAND.

Beef's picture

I think this blog post I

IB
(Gorilla, 718
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 12:04pm

I think this blog post I wrote a while ago applies:

http://wherethemoney.at/careers/why-most-ceos-are-...

Wall Street leaders now understand that they made a mistake, one born of their innocent and trusting nature. They trusted ordinary Americans to behave more responsibly than they themselves ever would, and these ordinary Americans betrayed their trust.

HerSerendipity's picture

I'd second hanging out with

PE
(King Kong, 1,031
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 12:09pm

I'd second hanging out with the guys part. I remember sitting down with an MD during my summer stint on an S&T desk. It was a sell day and I remember him asking me, "Why do you want to be in S&T? Honestly. Are you an idealist who wants the save the world or something?" and I just responded "..I just want to make a shitton of money." Honest? yes. Did I read him correctly? Yep. He subsequently became a great mentor that summer. I never went into S&T but we're still in contact.

Definitely important to maintain your femininity. There is nothing worse than being one of 'those' women who try and act like men. Guys absolutely hate that, and I'd say especially as the older guys are starting to retire, etc., the younger ones hate it even more. At my PE shop, there are very few girls on the deal/origination side. Luckily, the guys aren't spewing machismo. But, it's always good to remind them that you're a girl in some way or another. In my experience, guys in finance just want to work with a girl who's cool, smart and does good work. Pretty much the same thing they look for in guys. They're not running around looking to work with d-bags.

Bottom line, don't be something you're not. be firm, but not a real bitch who can't play well with others. Be nice, but don't be a pushover. Don't go into banking with self-doubts because you're a girl. Sure, there are definitely times where it will be awkward (guys who do just 'guy' things, talking about girls, etc) but it's best to just go with the flow in those instances.

MoneyKingdom's picture

My advice is to go join hr.

IB
(Gorilla, 626
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 12:46pm

My advice is to go join hr.

SAC's picture

Everyone says don't be

HF
(King Kong, 1,171
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 1:00pm

Everyone says don't be bitchy, but most of the successful women on WS are bitches ! So maybe that's part of what it takes for a woman to be successful on WS.

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whateverittakes's picture

As others have already said,

IB
(King Kong, 1,056
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 1:15pm

As others have already said, don't be a bitch.

Our office had some free coupons to a restaurant and I made a lap distributing them. When I tried handing one to the female analyst, she looked at me as if I was putting a tray of steaming dog shit in her lap and then snapped at me, "I don't want this!!" Had the disgusted look on her face and everything. I wasn't even trying to force it on her.

It's shit like that "I'm a woman in finance! I have to be edgy and show that I don't have time for your shit!" front that really pisses me off.

PiperJaffrayChiang's picture

double d's are usually nasty,

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 1:17pm

double d's are usually nasty, a nice C is best because they wont sag and look like floppy sandwich buns.

lets just say if you're hot you can get away with so much...

also you never see a big whale of a female analyst let alone a tubby one in my experience. I would advise you to lose weight if you're chubby because that will work against you. and bitchy vs nice, how about confident?

=========================================
We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

froufrou's picture

PiperJaffrayChiang

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 1:24pm
fhurricane's picture

double ds are aprerequisite

O
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 1:45pm
Stringer Bell's picture

As someone woman have called

PE
(King Kong, 1,679
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 2:23pm
PiperJaffrayChiang's picture

naturally being hot allows

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 2:23pm

=========================================
We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

MarkyMarkWahlbergWasAwesome's picture

Seriously, don't give me this

ST
(Orangutan, 289
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 2:28pm

------------------------------------------------------------------
"I just want to be a monkey of average intelligence who wears a suit. I'll go to business school!"

The Phantom's picture

I talked with female

HF
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 2:49pm
rebelcross's picture

froufrou wrote: i can imagine

IB
(King Kong, 1,466
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 2:50pm
Stringer Bell's picture

^^ This isn't true. If you're

PE
(King Kong, 1,679
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 3:17pm
froufrou's picture

rebelcross wrote: froufrou

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 3:26pm
rebelcross's picture

If you're willing to use your

IB
(King Kong, 1,466
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 4:22pm
moneyneversleeps2's picture

I actually agree with the

IB
(Orangutan, 256
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 4:35pm
BCbanker's picture

Banks are under the

IB
(Gorilla, 633
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 5:24pm
Marcus_Halberstram's picture

Lawyers that are fun and

PE
(Neanderthal, 3,438
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 6:47pm

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prospie's picture

double-Ds are not a

(King Kong, 1,680
 
Points)
 on 3/30/10 at 7:49pm

Financial Modeling Training
Guide to Finance Interviews
Banking Resume

blastoise's picture

Here is a tip: learn to

O
 
Points)
 on 3/31/10 at 12:44pm
CaptK's picture

westfald wrote: ^^ This isn't

PE
(Neanderthal, 2,344
 
Points)
 on 3/31/10 at 8:31pm

- Capt K -
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham

Edmundo Braverman's picture

balbasur wrote: Here is a

ST
(Human, 14,368
 
Points)
 on 4/1/10 at 10:48am

blastoise's picture

Edmundo Braverman

O
 
Points)
 on 4/1/10 at 12:00pm
lizbeth7867's picture

i

PE
(Chimp, 1
 
Points)
 on 4/1/10 at 6:52pm
shefali's picture

this is crazy discussion..i

AM
(Chimp, 1
 
Points)
 on 4/3/10 at 12:11pm

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