Now What The Hell Do I Do?

Ge the best internship you can and go for full time. It's been done before and hopefully by the time you recruit for FT the job market will be much better.

I'd say go back to the MM bank assuming it is a FO slot, that is probably your best option right now

Your situation is not uncommon by any means. I had 5 final round interviews and I was shitting my pants right after my last one. As everybody says, widen your net. Some advice I got recently:

Network like crazy. All of your professors have kids they taught in the past in positions to help you get something this summer.

Try to get into regional Alumni events.

One particular thing was cold calling research analysts. If you look at analyst reports, they all have the authors' email and phone numbers. Just be prepared to work for free and possible move to a different region. IMHO research is the next best thing to a BB research in terms of experience.

With your GPA (mine is similar), I was told I WILL get a job this summer. Just depends on how badly you want to work for it. People would love free labor with someone of your qualifications.

FinTutuola and WegmansTuna, we are in same boat. High GPA (everyone tells me I'll do great, yet no offer), hard major, and networked my nuts off. Results: 0. Sure in long run those connections I've made will help me out, but I need short-run help really bad. It's hard for complete non-targets (none of ibanks even bother checking my university) to track down alumni who are in ibanking.

WegmansTuna, I am definitely feeling your pain about grades. My GPA will definitely go down, unless I pull 21 all-nighters before finals. I don't even have any motivation to study, knowing that I have 0 offers.

As far as what to do. My plan is to keep applying for SA internships at small/local boutiques, and at the same time apply for various Finance internships.

I don't know if it's relevant or not, but I just got back from one of the info nights with consulting company. Basically they are hiring about 80 students this year for their full time (about 16 - 18 from my university). As far as interns, they are hiring only 6-7 (they've picked 6-7 major universities on West Coast and interning one student from every college).

Not to be derogatory but learn how to interview. There is an art to it and it is equally (if not more) important than the technical shit.

Perhaps this advice is coming late in the process, but I know many students with high GPAs that just can't cut it because they're not charismatic, natural, or confident enough in the interview.

Look, each bank is taking maybe 1-3 students from your school, which implies that you need to be in the top 1-3% of applicants to get the job. Better make damn sure that your interview skills are up to par.

Make sure you get one or two friends who have been successful in recruiting interview you and tell them to give you unrestrained feedback. Practice in front of a mirror. Tell applicable stories. Interviewing is more of a show than simply answering questions...

you're bitter? aren't we all?

might as well join the fucking Peace Corps.

Again, all the advice is much appreciated.

My problem is that I fumble in the fit questions, not the technical/market-related questions. Ask me about the yield curve and I can tell you where every line is trading, and I’ve also smoked all of my probability/brain teaser questions too (BTW I’m a S&T applicant).

But if you ask me to explain a time when I was in disagreement with someone, and how I overcame it, the best I got is to talk about a measly group project in one of my math classes where we didn’t get along, but then came together – it’s hardly entertaining.

I guess the point is that I would much rather shoot the shit with someone over a beer at a pub than try to “explain” myself through mandatory HR questions. In fact, in all my 1st round interviews I simply just had laid back conversations with my interviewers about the market and other shit, and I did very well.

In regards to the point about being bitter, you’re damn right I’m bitter; I’m f’ing extremely bitter. I’ve been told by my old boss (who worked in the industry for 9 yrs at a BB) that I had tremendous potential and could excel at any bank out there. I even would go as far as to say that there wasn’t a kid out there that I competed with in ALL of my interviews that I couldn’t smoke on the job. I've got an idea, why don't they put us on a trading floor, each with our own Blmbrg terminals for an assessment during the interviews; then we’d really see who’s got potential.

It’s no wonder that this industry is a mess right now. All of the banks running the show are too keen on hiring the flashy highbrow brats who talk like they know a lot of stuff, rather than hiring the honest hardworking non-target who has already proven himself in 2 prior internships within the industry and who would have made endless amounts of sacrifices this summer to be the best SA out there.

I’m just ranting at this point. Still nobody really answered my question. Specifically, which banks hire FT outside of SA’s? I know GS & MS both don’t. How about the European banks?

Don't think so, maybe just not this year. I can only vouch for one though. Also, if you wanted it bad enough, you would have got one. It doesn't matter if you're that much smarter or you memorize the yield curve better than anyone else. You have to let people know you want it more. 99% of the stuff in S&T is not that hard, espeically not anymore, so what sets people apart is people skills, vision, and desire/hard work. And if you show that better than anyone, they can't not take you. Just a little advice from someone who reads resumes/interviews for S&T.

You're too good for the BB banks-- that's why they didn't take you in.

Stop being so fucking full of yourself. You'll never get (or keep) the job with that attitude. This is why you can't answer the fit questions.

Ok EagleSpread, for next time I'll remember to jump up on the table and beg the interviewer for an offer.

It sounds like you came in to the office with an entitled attitude, and it showed in your interviews. If you think they'd like you better if you were interviewing over drinks, than imagine that you're interviewing over drinks. When they ask a fit question, imagine that you're telling a story at a bar and trying to pick up some girl.

Also, smile. It's shocking how many people don't realize the wonders a shit eating grin for two hours can do.

Calm down buddy. Also, if you haven't already you should be reaching out to all sorts of finance firms, (small mutual funds/hedge funds/prop trading/equity research). It is still not to late to try to get your foot in the door somewhere. From my interactions with senior level people on the street, I think talent ultimately works it's way to the top. Lots of people I know never started on Wall Street, but if you continue to work hard and are committed I think you will do well.

Also, from my experience, the first round interview is really to screen if you are normal, smart, and can do the job. The final round, is more about how much the team likes you and how good of a "fit" you would be. These fit questions are less dependent on your technical knowledge.

You gotta be able to sell yourself in the interview..... If you are going to choke on a simple question like that, how will you act when you are at a meeting with client pitching your book? Will you be honest? will you choke? or will you "BULLSHIT" in order to make the deal done?

No interviewers r just going to shoot the shit with you. Life's not fair. If you can't interest them for 30 min of their time, what make you think they will be able to work with you for 100+ hrs a week. You said you prepared for your upcoming interviews since x-mas break and all you can come up with is a disagreement you had in your math class? That's what you been preparing for 6 months? you don't sound very smart although you memorized all the technical shit from the vault guide. Honestly, you choked like a lil girl right there.

And you are getting bitter/pissed cuz you didn't bullshit on your interviews and you didn't get the job. But what the hell do you think this job consist of? Half bullshit, half smarts my dude. you gotta have the smart to do the job, but you gotta know when and how to bullshit.

if all you can come up with is a math class arguement bullshit in 6 months of your preparation, i don't think you are really fit for the job or that tells me that you are not a aggressive human being. You been living 20+ years man it just shows how small your brain is.

Instead of blaming everyone else and justifying what's wrong with everyone, the BB/ interviewers/ life whatever you wanna hate on, try to learn from this experience and ur failure. With that attitude, you are going nowhere. You f'ed up.. you got 4 interviews, they gave you a chance to prove yourself and you didn't get it done.

Be hungry, having SA opportunity at BB isn't all theres to life. Good luck to ya.

My bad if it sounds harsh but noone has time to sympathize with you when there jobs on the line

Why are you reading the WSJ twice a day?

nobody is entitled to anything, so you need to drop that immediately

i honestly do not see why you should be an "automatic" for the job... so you've had two internships? good, there are plenty of others w/ two internships. oh, and those people have higher GPAs and go to target schools. look, i'm not saying that the above is formulaic, but if you think you're in just on that, then we need to seriously adjust the size of the analyst class upwards

you seem to not be at all convinced w/ your own story. how the hell are you going to sell something then, if you can't sell yourself? the ultimate thing about the job is being able to be a great salesperson. find a story that will be applicable to the question and work on it. you shouldn't lie by any means, but you should be looking for a story that makes sense for a question... if your group experience stops at a math class, then that's just another flag about your lack of fit and preparation for a "team" environment... again, you may be a superstar, but if you can't talk to people, sell your idea, or be amicable, nobody is going to listen to you and at the end of the day you're not adding any value.

Do people bullshit fit questions? Abso-fucking-lutely. At this point in you're 20 and have maybe had all of 3-6 months total of real work experience. What if you haven't had major failures on the job yet? If an interviewer asks you, what's your biggest failure in a professional context...you still need to have an answer.

Agree with what everybody else on this board is saying. You clearly didn't prepare as well as you thought you did. Good prep focuses not just on prepping your strengths (which in your case is technicals), but also on learning how to mitigate your weaknesses.

You should have known these questions were coming, and planned accordingly. As for honesty, let's be real. You want to be a trader...not fucking mother teresa.

Saw this thread and couldnt but post my own little rant since im in the same situation. Basically did a complete 180 on turning my life around in the past 2 years between all the networking and the two internships I had. Did not receive an offer at the place i summered because they are under a hiring freeze, incidentally the desk I was on is one of the fastest growing for them. Had interviews at a couple top prop trading shop then some more shady prop shops. Also through networking was told about two opportunities that have since fell through on me but one of which will eventually work out just might take a year or so.

Its really tough to have graduated into this economy, you spend your entire life working towards a goal only to see it blow up in the final 4 months before graduating. The entire experience has been demoralizing. I live in a small town that has been affected by the economy and im just left scratching my head and scrambling for some sort of job.

Hang in there everyone.

Wegmans, fact of the matter is you didn't prepare enough for your interviews. If you knew that fit questions were your weakpoint, why wouldn't you spend more time practicing how to tell an engaging story to the interviewer? Also, if a group math project is really the best thing you can come up with, it tells me that you need some better leadership experience to effectively differentiate yourself from the other top 5% of candidates vying for the same job.

Look, with your resume, you'll get a decent internship this summer. Maybe not the one you wanted, but some of your classmates can't get any at all. Just use this as a learning experience and prepare the right way in the fall, minus the attitude, for FT recruiting.

Yikes.

stop quoting within quotes within quotes, it's becoming impossible to read.

more relevantly, when asked your biggest weakness, try to find something more human, less intellectual. you may play sports, have tons of friends, and get laid every night, but from the way you write and talk about yourself, you sound like a robot.

as for "lying" -- nobody's advocating outright falsehoods. but everything in life includes polishing, extracting lessons from things where there were none to be found, combining separate incidents into one...play the game. or leave. your choice.

Mostly though, quit with the righteous indignation and arrogance. You have this weird mentality that you know more than the rest of the world, and more than your interviewers.

Why should interviewers ask you more about your previous internships than your fit? If they can read your resume, see that you understand the technicals, then they know what your experience is. Clearly, they think there are other things that are relevant as to whether they'd want to hire you.

stop assuming you're right and they're wrong. in your second rounds, usually the people interviewing you are somewhat senior. they've hired people before. you haven't.

there's a reason they've gotten as far as they have, and you're still just a college student.

lack of accounting knowledge? you aren't as smart as you think you are.

better off saying you mess up the metric system when selling drugs.

I'll be a bit more constructive this time.

The reason why you probably did not get a heck of a lot of questions pertaining to your prior internships is probably because your work experience only totals 3-6 months. These guys interviewing you realize that no matter how good of an intern you were, you were there for just too little time to really be able to say much about the position. They do give you an opportunity to talk about the experience when you "walk through your resume" (which I assume most interviewers started with). but unless you say something that really catches him/her about the position, it's unlikely you're going to get questioned for it.

At the end of the day, these guys are trying to find out if they like you while interviewing you. I'm sure most of the younger guys would love to shoot the shit, but they are in the room with you to interview you - so they try to do a little bit of both. If you can catch them with some of the initial interview questions, they may feel inclined to drop the questions and make it less formal. But if you're telling them about a disagreement with a fellow student in a math group, they're probably not going to be too interested in shooting the shit with you.

As for refusing to make up stories: this is part of the job. When a client asks an MD a question he does not have the answer to, do you think he just says, "I don't know?" They try and come up with the best possible answer. In some situations, it's not possible. But for fit questions, it should ALWAYS be possible. You don't have to flat out lie - but adding in some "fluff" to enhance the story is necessary to captivate your interviewers. During my FT interviews, I never once flat-out LIED about anything. But I certainly made sure that I made my story seem interesting and that it was the BEST example I had of the question asked. And I was successful at interviewing - I had a 3.4 GPA from a non-target (though a top liberal arts college) with no IB experience (just Big 4 audit summer internship) and landed four FT offers at banks that I networked into. For three of them, I was the only FT candidate offered a position, and this out of a pool of hundreds of applicants. There were no BB or prestigious boutiques, but I did get offers from some well-known MM banks. Honestly - it's all about the interviewer liking you. Make them understand you want to do the job, you're a personable/enjoyable guy, and you GET IT (want to make their life easier), and you're all set. It is the fit questions that will screw you, not the technicals.

You are getting a lot of good advices. Take this with you and when you step in the room with interviewers, maybe you will know how to answer the question better.

I can clearly see that you are very passionate about this career, best of luck to you brother.

PS. I hope you are not trying to jump out the window attempting to committ suicide just because you didn't land a BB SA oppurtunity. lol

I’m sorry, but lying about past experiences is just not me.

You are looking at the wrong industry.

be an investor relator

or an account manager

The world has changed. And we must change with it.

I am sort of in the same boat as you. 4 Superdays with no offers yet ( waiting on one.)

It is definitely difficult, given that I actually came from an electrical engineering background and had to learn all the accounting & finance by myself. I also rejected my full time offer at a very well-known engineering company(base was 75K) in order to recruit for SA for Ibanks.

However, just keep your heads up, I am sure something will come along if you work really hard. Honestly, how many successful people on wall street now went through the "typical" route of IB ->H/B/B -> PE ( KKR)? You may not break it in this summer, but I really believe that a chance will definitely come.

WegmansTuna:

Quite frankly, I find it a bit ironic how the financial system is on the brink of collapse, arguably because of dishonesty within the industry, and yet there are people out there that still think lying breeds success.

I’m sorry, but lying about past experiences is just not me. And if that’s what it takes to land an offer at a BB, then consider my recruitment strike out a blessing because an industry where everyone is lying is not one that I would want to be a part of anyways.

You need to learn to play the game. Don't lie, but you need to frame yourself in the best light.

As for your attitude on "the industry", I think you misunderstood some Obama speech as fact.

Tunaman, I've been in your position, don't give up if this is truly what you want to do.

I've been through a few internship recruiting cycles and have been consistently rejected from super-days with i-banks large and small. Granted I always land a good number of interviews, I was still always left hanging with little at the end.

I've nailed every single technical question they could throw at me, but in the end I couldn't make it past the fit part. They never give you any honest feedback, but I think virtually 90% of the interview is the guy on the other side of the table getting along and liking you. For me, I just never really meshed with their personalities, I've always found bankers to have a certain "higher than thou" attitude which I absolutely abhor. Perhaps they could sense it.

It's not that you're not good enough, it's just a matter of fit and luck. Sure they want to see that you know your accounting and finance concepts, but at the end of the day they want someone that they like. Sometimes it's an intangible impression that you can't really improve upon or measure, but it definitely makes an impact on you moving forward.

Although the wait is painful, eventually you will get to where you want to be if you want it enough. Having poured sweat, blood, and tears into trying to break into i-banking for a year with little success, I've turned to alternatives and now find myself with a great internship. So maybe you should consider other career paths, the world does not revolve around ibanks. I know I was bummed when I didn't land those offers but now I'm at a place where I'm actually happy.

Also smile more, people like smiley people...

They probably just don't want to waste their time responding to someone they didn't choose - honestly. Or they don't want to waste time coming up with some sort of constructive criticism.

feedback is something you'll really only find from consulting firms

I am sort of in the same boat as you. 4 Superdays with no offers yet ( waiting on one.)

It is definitely difficult, given that I actually came from an electrical engineering background and had to learn all the accounting & finance by myself. I also rejected my full time offer at a very well-known engineering company(base was 75K) in order to recruit for SA for Ibanks.

However, just keep your heads up, I am sure something will come along if you work really hard. Honestly, how many successful people on wall street now went through the "typical" route of IB ->H/B/B -> PE ( KKR)? You may not break it in this summer, but I really believe that a chance will definitely come.

Eric 1025

Why the fuck would you leave a base 75k job for i-bank SA position... I-bank industry isn't the same as it used to be. I think you made a DUMB decision on this one...

Good luck to ya... Ibanking industry is slowly changing and that fulltime offer sounds more secure than any of bankers working today.

Because it was an engineering job. After a summer internship there, I realized I don't like engineering. It's not much about the pay, as I don't really need the money. It was more of an experience that matters to me the most.Or maybe I am just weird? dunno

That was the perfect gig to ride out the current economy, but if you don't like the job, you don't like the job. Ballsy move.

Why not just sign with the engineering firm, and then reject them only if you secure a BB offer?

You'll be in a different industry, doubt you'll burn many bridges.

that might be an option.

They just extended me an intern position again today without my asking for it. So I guess that's my backup? I think even if I choose not to intern with them, they would still let me go back full-time though.

Did you read the WSO behavioral guide?
I had interviews at every BB with final rounds at a few with no offers before my last 2, then I expressed concern to a friend who suggested it to me. I changed a few things and am sitting on offers from the last two.

What I've learned is to code the qualities they want into your stories. e.g. "yeah, I had a group project that was going nowhere, i think my leadership and ability to communicate with different types of people really helped because we........" you get the point

The guide has a lot of examples to show you how to frame a response. Just use your own stories haha

props to wegmanstuna for not wanting to lie

its a rare trait but it'll make recruiting much more miserable

anyways, why don't you try for non-BBs like DRW, DE Shaw, Citadel, Spot, Optiver, where they just want raw intelligence?

Perhaps consider some government jobs that require quantitative and analytical skills. This link (http://www.gottamentor.com/viewAdvice.aspx?a=273) has a few areas you might want to check out with links to some of the sites where you can apply. It could be good preparation to break into the industry next year and hey some people in the industry are working for the government anyway...

Monkeytobe88,

I have been looking into some government sponsored internships, and there does seem be some attractive options in that sector.

Still, can somebody answer my question regarding this mid-office offer I have on the line. Could taking a mid-office role at a BB in any way HURT my chances for FO FT recruitment in the fall?

Reason I ask is because at least the MO offer adds more color to my resume, whereas the MM bank does not enhance my resume at all, as that experience is already there.