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Wall Street Oasis » Forums » I-Banking Bullpen
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The Prestige Race
 

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firefighter's picture
firefighter
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 967
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 6:49am
unending road.JPG

I know this forum and Wall Street as a whole places a large premium in prestige, and so have I (not willingly but just the way I was raised I guess) but it's really a race you cannot win. Remember how happy you were when you got into Harvard, Yale, or Princeton? Well, once you get in, you're not gonna be happy until you get into GS/MS, and then you're still not gonna be happy because you need to get into a top buyout shop like KKR or hedge fund like SAC capital.

Then there's business school - even if youre a pre-MBA associate at KKR you're not gonna be happy until you get into HBS, and then you're not gonna be happy until you get a post-associate at KKR/SAC, and then you want to move up, and then you want to be MD/Partner.

And then you're just getting started. Think you'll be satisfied then? Partners bicker every year for bonuses, committee positions, C-level positions, etc. And then you have to worry about your kids getting into Andover and Exeter, and HYP, and the cycle starts all over again

Shit doesn't end. I'm very focused on the "prestige track" and I'm doing well on it, but I hate how shit doesn't end

And I'm happiest when I'm with friends and family, not when I'm thinking of how highly ranked my school/bank is. Personal relationships are what make you happy, not $100 million -- its weird to say that as a lecture but it's so true. Friends of mine were rich enough to buy $20k watches and were still miserable.

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Tags:
  • prestige
  • I-Banking Bullpen
WallStreetOasis.com's picture

Congrats on figuring this out

WallStreetOasis.com
      EN
 
 
(Human, 12,074
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 2:02am

Congrats on figuring this out early. Now you have to figure out what you actually want to do with you life.

But seriously, it doesn't end and you will likely be miserable if you constantly try to compare.

WSO Conference 2013

Private Certified User Chat

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Eric Stratton's picture

So it seems you have come to

Eric Stratton
     
 
(Gorilla, 583
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 2:02am

So it seems you have come to the realization that there is more to life than money and prestige, yet you are "very focused on the prestige track."

Am I missing something?

---------------------
"Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America."

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firefighter's picture

It's sort of that I

firefighter
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 967
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 2:07am

It's sort of that I rationally understand it's stupid to follow that track but part of me still wants to be able to say to friends and colleagues "I work at XXX/I attended XXX university." But I also realize that once you move up all the people around you have your same accomplishments anyway so there's no one who would actually be impressed. Stupid I know but I'm trying to walk away from that mindset

I think alot of people also have the feeling that "If I went to Harvard, going to a regular job is a waste, so I'll got to Goldman." but once they start at goldman it's "I did 2 years at goldman, it's a waste NOT to go to KKR, etc" ad infinitum

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blastoise's picture

keep that mentality during

blastoise
      O
 
(Senior Neanderthal, 4,380
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 2:08am

keep that mentality during college so you'll have a good resume after it then think about having a change of heart

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WallStreetOasis.com's picture

machinegunfunk wrote: It's

WallStreetOasis.com
      EN
 
 
(Human, 12,074
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 2:13am
machinegunfunk:

It's sort of that I rationally understand it's stupid to follow that track but part of me still wants to be able to say to friends and colleagues "I work at XXX/I attended XXX university." But I also realize that once you move up all the people around you have your same accomplishments anyway so there's no one who would actually be impressed. Stupid I know but I'm trying to walk away from that mindset

I think alot of people also have the feeling that "If I went to Harvard, going to a regular job is a waste, so I'll got to Goldman." but once they start at goldman it's "I did 2 years at goldman, it's a waste NOT to go to KKR, etc" ad infinitum

Probably tough to let it go because you place so much of your self-worth in the supposed prestige of where you work. Like you said, outside of WSO (real world) and even on WSO, most people don't give a shit how prestigious a company you work for is...the sooner you mature and get over that the better. If you actually enjoy your work and you want to continue working at top shops because you like the culture / environment / whatever, then nothing wrong with that. Just let go of the prestige card...it's pretentious and sad.

Most people know (or at least eventually figure it out) that there are brilliant people and morons at almost every company and institution -- so don't be so sure that everyone is judging you by the name on your business card.

WSO Conference 2013

Private Certified User Chat

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ibhopeful532's picture

One word: Insecurity. And I'm

ibhopeful532
      O
 
(King Kong, 1,016
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 2:19am

One word:

Insecurity.

And I'm going to venture a guess that you're Asian - amirite?

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firefighter's picture

Patrick -- thanks, I'm trying

firefighter
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 967
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 2:32am

Patrick -- thanks, I'm trying to do that now and I'm happy I'm coming to this realization at 20 as opposed to as a miserable 45 year old MD at Blackstone

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DaCarez's picture

This realization is both

DaCarez
      HF
 
 
(Senior Gorilla, 810
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 2:19am

This realization is both liberating and empowering in that you are far less beholden to the complex once you're there - suddenly, your employer has that much less sway over you. Of course, you still (probably) need a paycheck, but no longer are you obsessed with working at ____ just because it is the most prestigious.

SB for OP, even if it is a somewhat obvious realization that all monkeys should come to.

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CaptK's picture

You're wise beyond your years

CaptK
      PE
 
 
(Neanderthal, 2,344
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 3:21am

You're wise beyond your years if you realize this while you're still in college. Check out my signature for my feelings on the subject.

- Capt K -
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham

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Nachos's picture

It will make me kill someone

Nachos
      O
 
(Senior Orangutan, 445
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 3:48am

It will make me kill someone over a business card.

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midnight_oil's picture

Some people just want to

midnight_oil
      IB
 
(Senior Baboon, 218
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 3:55am

Some people just want to succeed in things that are rankable. Prestige / reputation can be ranked; hence, the self-fulfillment that comes with it. This is normal and hard to shake off if you just HAVE it internally. You can't cure short or tall, and you can't cure some internal character traits.

Now if you're one of those restless souls and you do succeed, then you should be happy - life is a challenge that you're good at. Imagine how shitty those people with ambition feel who for whatever reason can't or don't or feel like they don't achieve anything.

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rjroberts1's picture

machinegunfunk wrote: It's

rjroberts1
      ER
 
(Baboon, 161
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 8:26am
machinegunfunk:

It's sort of that I rationally understand it's stupid to follow that track but part of me still wants to be able to say to friends and colleagues "I work at XXX/I attended XXX university." But I also realize that once you move up all the people around you have your same accomplishments anyway so there's no one who would actually be impressed. Stupid I know but I'm trying to walk away from that mindset

I think alot of people also have the feeling that "If I went to Harvard, going to a regular job is a waste, so I'll got to Goldman." but once they start at goldman it's "I did 2 years at goldman, it's a waste NOT to go to KKR, etc" ad infinitum

Generally speaking, the only people that care or are impressed that you went to XXX university or work at XXX Bank are people that are in similar situations. Otherwise you just sound pretentious when those are the things that define you.

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Nefarious-'s picture

I don't care about prestige.

Nefarious-
      CF
 
(Neanderthal, 2,216
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 8:50am

I don't care about prestige. I would be a janitor if it paid me right.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

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IlliniProgrammer's picture

Congrats guys on figuring

IlliniProgrammer
      ST
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,244
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 10:05am

Congrats guys on figuring this out early. Your 20s are some of the best years of your life (though we do have folks learning to fly hang gliders at 50), but you're not really living if life is all about money and prestige.

There is no point working harder than you need to get what's REALLY important out of life. John Rockefeller was a man who gained the world but felt he lost his soul in the process. One of his last letters, he wrote, "I am a shell of a man", and explained how he was lonely, friendless, and his only comfort was his dividend checks.

Howard Hughes was one of the world's first billionaires and arguably cooler and more prestigious in the 1950s than anything today's 22-year-olds aspire to. When he died in 1976, he was alone in Guatemala, his fingernails were twelve inches long, his arms were riddled with stabs from the morphine injections he was addicted to.

That's what it takes to get to the top- and that's how it ends for folks who get there. Is that what folks REALLY want?

I'll take free time, friends, and hang gliding and a comfortable six figures, thank you very much. Someone else can go enjoy bigger salaries, and the screwed up families, sycophantic relationships, and general misery that come with doing whatever it takes to get to the top.

Probably tough to let it go because you place so much of your self-worth in the supposed prestige of where you work. Like you said, outside of WSO (real world) and even on WSO, most people don't give a shit how prestigious a company you work for is...the sooner you mature and get over that the better. If you actually enjoy your work and you want to continue working at top shops because you like the culture / environment / whatever, then nothing wrong with that. Just let go of the prestige card...it's pretentious and sad.

I think everyone does some of that to some extent. Older, wiser people have learned to do it less. Of course, everyone has a lot of work to do on getting wiser- when we're 22, we're the Oracle of Delphi, when we're 25, we turn into total fools.

Life is a search for meaning and self-worth. It's a lot easier to find it when you're not obsessed with prestige.

Work hard, play hard.

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lolercoasterrr's picture

Yes it's easy to realize that

lolercoasterrr
      PE
 
 
(Orangutan, 328
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 9:58am

Yes it's easy to realize that prestige is overrated but it's not like you can help it. Most people who care about prestige are fairly driven people in the first place. They try very hard during high school and do well academically to get into a good college. By this time the people you hang out with and associate it are also likely overachievers so naturally you all go to top colleges. In college you maintain this mentality and realize you want to go into finance. Everyone else wants to go into finance and since you are driven you want to go the best place. You want to go to a bulge bracket because everyone else is going and you don't want to be viewed as a failure. When you're at Goldman everyone wants KKR, so you want it to... and the cycle continues. Basically your friends/coworkers all desire the same thing which makes you desire it. If all your college buddies went to top banks and you went to a no-name place or couldn't land a job (because you didn't care about prestige) would you be happy about it?

Not saying I disagree with your sentiment but it's a lot harder to just say "Yeah I don't care about prestige anymore."

Also I don't think wanting to go to KKR -> HBS is a sign of being a prestige whore; just that you're very driven. If you had a Harvard undergrad and simply wanted the pedigree of HBS then there may be something wrong, but if you want to go to a PE shop or Bschool it makes sense to try to go the top. As long as your mentality isnt KKR/HBS or depression then you're fine.

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clownfish's picture

interpret as you

clownfish
      IB
 
(Monkey, 47
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 10:41am
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CapToed's picture

clownfish wrote: interpret as

CapToed
      IB
 
(Senior Baboon, 219
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 11:49am
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firefighter's picture

I think if you make $19k one

firefighter
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 967
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 12:09pm
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Brady4MVP's picture

Very thoughtful post. It's

Brady4MVP
      HF
 
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 12:11pm
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IlliniProgrammer's picture

Dude, jjc, relax man. You

IlliniProgrammer
      ST
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,244
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 12:52pm

Work hard, play hard.

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Brady4MVP's picture

IlliniProgrammer wrote: Dude,

Brady4MVP
      HF
 
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 1:04pm
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nycIBD's picture

penn is nowhere near HYP

nycIBD
     
 
(Gorilla, 515
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 4:38pm
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IlliniProgrammer's picture

Quote: penn is nowhere near

IlliniProgrammer
      ST
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,244
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 4:52pm

Work hard, play hard.

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prospie's picture

I think this thread is

prospie
     
 
(King Kong, 1,682
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 5:38pm

Financial Modeling Training
Guide to Finance Interviews
Banking Resume

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IlliniProgrammer's picture

For IP Completeness, we also

IlliniProgrammer
      ST
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,244
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 5:42pm

Work hard, play hard.

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ivoteforthatguy's picture

I've liked the Penn/Wharton

ivoteforthatguy
      O
 
(Neanderthal, 2,210
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 6:05pm
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happypantsmcgee's picture

IlliniProgrammer

happypantsmcgee
      O
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,621
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 6:14pm

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

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New Yorker's picture

Why settle for Andover and

New Yorker
     
 
(Gorilla, 704
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 6:35pm
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IlliniProgrammer's picture

BTW, JJC, I don't mean to rag

IlliniProgrammer
      ST
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,244
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 6:40pm

Work hard, play hard.

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tireds's picture

Guys, happiness is not the

tireds
     
 
(Monkey, 34
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 7:31pm
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Malakari's picture

Lol, hes bitter about going

Malakari
      IB
 
(Orangutan, 251
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 10:22pm
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Guest1655's picture

hey finally an interesting

Guest1655
      EN
 
(Senior Gorilla, 880
 
Points)
 on 11/17/10 at 11:23pm
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nycIBD's picture

its because he is a Godless

nycIBD
     
 
(Gorilla, 515
 
Points)
 on 11/18/10 at 12:02am
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blastoise's picture

Guest1655 wrote: hey finally

blastoise
      O
 
(Senior Neanderthal, 4,380
 
Points)
 on 11/18/10 at 12:18am
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happypantsmcgee's picture

blastoise wrote: Guest1655

happypantsmcgee
      O
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,621
 
Points)
 on 11/18/10 at 12:21am

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

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chewingum's picture

IlliniProgrammer

chewingum
      IB
 
(Baboon, 145
 
Points)
 on 11/18/10 at 12:44am
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blastoise's picture

chewingum

blastoise
      O
 
(Senior Neanderthal, 4,380
 
Points)
 on 11/18/10 at 1:12am
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tireds's picture

Am I the only one that finds

tireds
     
 
(Monkey, 34
 
Points)
 on 11/18/10 at 8:30am
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IlliniProgrammer's picture

chewingum wrote: I find that

IlliniProgrammer
      ST
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,244
 
Points)
 on 11/18/10 at 9:06am

Work hard, play hard.

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jackilewis's picture

tireds wrote: Am I the only

jackilewis
      AM
 
(Baboon, 131
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 12:24am
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Malakari's picture

Why would you ever want a

Malakari
      IB
 
(Orangutan, 251
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 10:25am
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non-target BB Banker's picture

Great post! Motivate me to

non-target BB Banker
      IB
 
(Baboon, 127
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 12:01pm
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Guest1655's picture

DashaandSafin wrote: Why

Guest1655
      EN
 
(Senior Gorilla, 880
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 5:02pm
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happypantsmcgee's picture

Guest1655

happypantsmcgee
      O
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,621
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 7:16pm

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

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Argonaut's picture

IlliniProgrammer wrote: BTW,

Argonaut
     
 
(King Kong, 1,762
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 8:36pm

More is good, all is better

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happypantsmcgee's picture

Argonaut

happypantsmcgee
      O
 
 
(Almost Human, 9,621
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 8:50pm

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

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Argonaut's picture

happypantsmcgee

Argonaut
     
 
(King Kong, 1,762
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 9:01pm

More is good, all is better

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Argonaut's picture

IlliniProgrammer wrote: I

Argonaut
     
 
(King Kong, 1,762
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 9:20pm

More is good, all is better

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Brady4MVP's picture

Argonaut

Brady4MVP
      HF
 
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 11/19/10 at 10:24pm
  • 0
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TrollSince92's picture

easy to get in hard to get

TrollSince92
      IB
 
(Monkey, 43
 
Points)
 on 11/20/10 at 3:46am
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Web Site Security Rules. Users are prohibited from violating or attempting to violate the security of the Web Site, including, without limitation, (a) accessing data not intended for such user or logging into a server or account which the user is not authorized to access, (b) attempting to probe, scan or test the vulnerability of a system or network or to breach security or authentication measures without proper authorization, (c) attempting to interfere with service to any user, host or network, including, without limitation, via means of submitting a virus to the Web Site, overloading, "flooding", "spamming", "mailbombing" or "crashing", (d) sending unsolicited e-mail, including promotions and/or advertising of products or services, or (e) forging any TCP/IP packet header or any part of the header information in any e-mail. Violations of system or network security may result in civil or criminal liability. The Company will investigate occurrences which may involve such violations and may involve, and cooperate with, law enforcement authorities in prosecuting users who are involved in such violations.

Specific Prohibited Uses.

The Company specifically prohibits any use of the Web Site, and all users agree not to use the Web Site, for any of the following:

  • Posting any incomplete, false or inaccurate biographical information or information which is not your own accurate resume
  • Using any device, software or routine to interfere or attempt to interfere with the proper working of this Web Site or any activity being conducted on this site.
  • Taking any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on this Web Site?s infrastructure.
  • If you have a password allowing access to a non-public area of this Web Site, disclosing to or sharing your password with any third parties or using your password for any unauthorized purpose.
  • Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained herein, using or attempting to use any engine, software, tool, agent or other device or mechanism (including without limitation browsers, spiders, robots, avatars or intelligent agents) to navigate or search this Web Site other than the search engine and search agents available from the Company on this Web Site and other than generally available third party web browsers (e.g., Netscape Navigator, Microsoft Explorer).
  • Attempting to decipher, decompile, disassemble or reverse engineer any of the software comprising or in any way making up a part of the Web Site.
  • Aggregating, copying or duplicating in any manner any of the materials or information available from the Web Site.
  • Framing of or linking to any of the materials or information available from the Web Site.

User Information.

When you register for the Web Site, you will be asked to provide the Company with certain information including, without limitation, a valid email address (your "Information"). In addition to the terms and conditions that may be set forth in any privacy policy on this Web Site, you understand and agree that the Company may disclose to third parties, on an anonymous basis, certain aggregate information contained in your registration application. The Company reserves the right to offer third party services and products to you based on the preferences that you identify in your registration and at any time thereafter; such offers may be made by the Company or by third parties. Please see the Company's Privacy Policy below for further details regarding your Information.

Registration and Password.

You are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your information and password. You shall be responsible for all uses of your registration, whether or not authorized by you. You agree to immediately notify the Company of any unauthorized use of your registration or password.

The Company's Liability.

As a condition to your use of this site, you release the Company (and our agents and employees) from claims, demands and damages (actual and consequential, direct and indirect) of every kind and nature, known and unknown, suspected and unsuspected, disclosed and undisclosed, arising out of or in any way connected with such disputes. If you are a California resident, you waive California Civil Code d1542, which says: "A general release does not extend to claims which the creditor does not know or suspect to exist in his favor at the time of executing the release, which if known by him must have materially affected his settlement with the debtor."

We are under no legal obligation to, and generally do not, control the information provided by other users which is made available through the Web Site. By its very nature, other people?s information may be offensive, harmful or inaccurate, and in some cases will be mislabeled or deceptively labeled. We expect that you will use caution and common sense when using this Web Site.

The Material may contain inaccuracies or typographical errors. The Company makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness, or timeliness of the Web Site or the Material. The use of the Web Site and the Material is at your own risk. Changes are periodically made to the Web Site and may be made at any time.

You acknowledge and agree that you are solely responsible for the content and accuracy of any resume or material contained therein placed by you on the Web Site and you agree to let any users that are identified as recruiters (designated in the sole discretion of the Company) to have access to your resume.

The Company is not to be considered to be an employer with respect to your use of the Web Site and the Company shall not be responsible for any employment decisions, for whatever reason made, made by any entity posting jobs on the Web Site.

THE COMPANY DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE WEB SITE WILL OPERATE ERROR-FREE OR THAT THE WEB SITE AND ITS SERVER ARE FREE OF COMPUTER VIRUSES OR OTHER HARMFUL MECHANISMS. IF YOUR USE OF THE WEB SITE OR THE MATERIAL RESULTS IN THE NEED FOR SERVICING OR REPLACING EQUIPMENT OR DATA, THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE COSTS.

THE WEB SITE AND MATERIAL ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" BASIS WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND. THE COMPANY, TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING THE WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. THE COMPANY MAKES NO WARRANTIES ABOUT THE ACCURACY, RELIABILITY, COMPLETENESS, OR TIMELINESS OF THE MATERIAL, SERVICES, SOFTWARE, TEXT, GRAPHICS, AND LINKS.

Disclaimer of Consequential Damages.

IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COMPANY, ITS SUPPLIERS, OR ANY THIRD PARTIES MENTIONED ON THE WEB SITE BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, INCIDENTAL AND CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, LOST PROFITS, OR DAMAGES RESULTING FROM LOST DATA OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) RESULTING FROM THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE WEB SITE AND THE MATERIAL, WHETHER BASED ON WARRANTY, CONTRACT, TORT, OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY, AND WHETHER OR NOT THE COMPANY IS ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

Links to Other Sites.

The Web Site may contain links to third party web sites. These links are provided solely as a convenience to you and not as an endorsement by the Company of the contents on such third-party Web sites. The Company is not responsible for the content of linked third-party sites and does not make any representations regarding the content or accuracy of materials on such third party Web sites. If you decide to access linked third party Web sites, you do so at your own risk.

No Resale or Unauthorized Commercial Use.

You agree not to resell or assign your rights or obligations under these Term of Use. You also agree not to make any unauthorized commercial use of the Web Site.

Limitation of Liability.

The aggregate liability for the Company to you for all claims arising from the use of the Materials is limited to $1.

Termination.

The Company reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to pursue all of its legal remedies, including but not limited to immediate termination of your registration with or ability to access the Web Site and/or any other service provided to you by the Company, upon any breach by you of these Terms and Conditions or if the Company is unable to verify or authenticate any information you submit to the Web Site registration with or ability to access the Web Site.

Indemnity.

You agree to defend, indemnify, and hold harmless the Company, its officers, directors, employees and agents, from and against any claims, actions or demands, including without limitation reasonable legal and accounting fees, alleging or resulting from your use of the Material or your breach of the terms of these Terms and Conditions. The Company shall provide notice to you promptly of any such claim, suit, or proceeding and shall assist you, at your expense, in defending any such claim, suit or proceeding.

General.

The Company makes no claims that the Materials may be lawfully viewed or downloaded outside of the United States. Access to the Materials may not be legal by certain persons or in certain countries. If you access the Web Site from outside of the United States, you do so at your own risk and are responsible for compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction. These Terms and conditions are governed by the internal substantive laws of the State of New York, without respect to its conflict of laws principles. Jurisdiction for any claims arising under this agreement shall lie exclusively with the state or federal courts within New York, New York. If any provision of these Terms and Conditions are found to be invalid by any court having competent jurisdiction, the invalidity of such provision shall not affect the validity of the remaining provisions of these Terms and Conditions, which shall remain in full force and effect. No waiver of any term of these Terms and Conditions shall be deemed a further or continuing waiver of such term or any other term. Except as expressly provided in additional terms of use for areas of the Web Site a particular "Legal Notice," or Software License or Material on particular Web pages, these Terms and Conditions constitute the entire agreement between you and the Company with respect to the use of Web Site. No changes to these Terms and Conditions shall be made except by a revised posting on this page.

PRIVACY POLICY

The Company recognizes that you are concerned about privacy. We are committed to preserving your privacy and safeguarding your sensitive information. The following statement describes the general information-gathering and usage practices of our sites.

Our staff, contractors, Internet service providers and others involved in this site follow this policy or similarly strict policies regarding your Information.

Disclosure

The Company is committed to fully disclosing our policies regarding the collection, use, maintenance, disclosure and security of personal information obtained from users of our site. The term "personal information" includes a name, address, email address, or any other information which could be used to contact you directly or to identify you personally.

Use and Disclosure Limitations

The Company only uses personal information about its Web site users for specific purposes. We do not share user information with third parties except when we have told users about the disclosures, when we have prior consent, or when required by law.

Use Policy: When the Company gathers personal information from users, we ask for permission first. We also disclose, at the time of collection, how the information will be used by us. Personal information is used for activities such as auto-completion of commonly-used forms and helping us contact you when you solicit information from us.

Disclosure Policy: We do not normally disclose personal information to anyone outside of the Company unless we have previously informed users about the disclosures. However, some data may be used from time to time by outside contractors, including auditors or consultants, to assist us in carrying out necessary financial or operational activities. These uses will be consistent with this privacy policy and all contractors using this potential personal information must agree to safeguard it, to use it only for the authorized purpose, and to return it or destroy it upon completion of the activity.

The Company might be required to disclose personal information in response to a valid legal process such as a subpoena, search warrant or court order.

Although unlikely, it is possible that we may have to make certain disclosures to ensure the security of our Web site, to protect its integrity, or to take precautions against potential liability. In any of these situations, we will take any reasonable steps to limit the scope of the data disclosed.

Web Logs: The Company maintains standard Web logs that record basic information about visitors to our Web site. These logs contain: * The Internet domain from which you came to our Web site. * Your IP address. An IP address is a series of numbers which uniquely identifies your connection to the Internet. Although it is possible in some instances, certain types of IP addresses may be used by interested persons to identify users but we do not attempt to identify users in this way. * The type of browser (e.g., Internet Explorer or Netscape) and operating system (e.g., Windows 98) you use. * The date and time you visited the site, and the pages you saw.

We use Web log information to design our Web site, identify popular features, and in similar ways. We do not try to identify individuals from Web logs or to link Web logs to other user information. However, if someone tries to damage our Web site or use it in an unauthorized or illegal way, we may share Web log information with law enforcement agencies. The Company may provide aggregate information such as the number of users who visit particular pages of the site, or the number of people who link to certain external sites from our site, to other parties.

Changes to Privacy Policy

The Company's features and services will change over time and our information-gathering practices and policies may also change.

While our philosophy of protecting user information from inappropriate uses and disclosures will not change, this policy will be updated occasionally to include any change that materially affects the collection, maintenance, use, or disclosure of personal information.

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