MS in finance vs MBA

Just curious what your opinions are on this. Starting my MBA in Sept. Was just curious what my fellow monkeys thought about this question.

MS in finance one year program or the 2 year MBA?


Costs

MS in finance around 50K

MBA 112K


Target School

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

The MBA is going to get you a lot further. Obviously it depends on your experience, but a lot of people use the MS in finance to break into the industry, where as an MBA is to advance yourself. Coming out of an MBA you are going to start at an associates level, where as for the MS, unless you have prior experience you are going to start at the analyst level in almost all cases.

I can also tell you that I have a friend who got his MS after graduation and then found it necessary 3 years later to go back and get his MBA. So while I think the MS in finance's are great programs, I would generally pick the MBA.

 

What do you guys think about doing a 2 year M&A analyst stint (with a v. good firm) and then hitting LSBF/INSEAD/Said Business School for a one year MBA?? No way I'm going USA for this 2-year malarkey.

 

of the three you mentioned, I would go for INSEAD. Oxford's a great university, but its business school is not in the first league. A bit like Yale actually.

If you want to work in the USA, you will have to go for a US MBA though. NY offices of banks or PE funds don't recruit from non-US b schools.

 

But LSBF ranked really highly this year didn't it? Top three I believe? And as regards to INSEAD, je ne parle pas Francais! :)

I'm pretty sure I could still swing a U.S. based job without attending a U.S. b-school.

 
joefish:
But LSBF ranked really highly this year didn't it? Top three I believe? And as regards to INSEAD, je ne parle pas Francais! :)

I'm pretty sure I could still swing a U.S. based job without attending a U.S. b-school.

Way to ask for advice and then completely disregard it.

 

There appears to be a serious misunderstanding about what LSBF is. LSBF is in no way related to the much better regarded LBS.

LBS = London Business School. Arguably the top business school outside the United States. It is usually considered to be on par with the top 10 US business schools. MBA program ranked #1 in Europe and #2 worldwide by the Financial Times.

LSBF = London School of Business and Finance. Affiliated with the University of East London (a not-so-well-regarded university), the Grenoble Graduate School of Business (never heard of it), and Sun Yat-Sen University (no idea what this is). LSBF does not even appear in the top 100 rankings published by the FT, and I have never seen it even mentioned by the WSJ, Business Week, Forbes, the Economist, or any other major publication that writes about business schools.

To Joefish and several other people in this thread: You appear to have confused two totally different institutions. LBS is a top-ranked business school. LSBF does not even appear on the 2008 European business school rankings, let alone the global business school rankings rankings (didn't break the top 100 globally, or the top 60 in Europe).

LBS: http://www.london.edu/ LSBF: http://www.lsbf.org.uk/

Hope this helps.

 

MBA all the way.

Not that you wouldn't learn things that would benefit you in a MS Finance program, but I think many people would agree that the main purpose for most MBA students is to get a break from work and to expand your business network, other then that, I think a large amount of people question how beneficial the curriculum is, even for an MBA.

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 

If your undergrad is non-target and you want to break into IB, then MSF. Top MBA schools don't prefer accounting guys, ask Stacy Blackman or Alex Chu on here. Or if you can get into Deloitte's Consulting, then waiting a few more years would be wise. Though not as prestigious as BCG or Oliver Wyman, they still try to recruit from Deloitte. The other 3 are hardcore accounting firms, you better stay away from there.

EDIT: The chances of you getting into top MBA programs are small with your CPA license.

 

LOL, it seems like on this board, Deloitte isn't "that hard" to get into. Good luck transferring from Deloitte Audit to Deloitte Consulting. It is basically the equivalent of going from BO to FO. It is VERY VERY hard. The caliber of students that Deloitte Consulting has is far, far higher than that of your typical audit guys. The recruiters push that you can transfer divisions easily, but then again, when I was at a Goldman recruiting session, they did the very same thing.

 

A piece of advice, drop the CPA. If you want to break into IB with 6 months of experience, just do the MSF. You are still young and have time to build the right profile for MBA.

 

Similar situation here. Wanting to break into IB but lack the relevant experience to get in right now. I have been working in Big 4 Advisory (Enterprise Risk consulting) for almost two years. I am currently pursuing the CPA. Interested if an MSF is worthwhile, i.e. will it help me get into investment banking either directly or help me get into a top MBA program later. Thanks.

 

I think anyone that has a good story to tell on their applications is capable of getting into a good MBA program. I go to a nontarget and we have one alumni that is finishing up at HBS. He was an accounting major with 3.5 years of KPMG audit experience but had a stellar gpa+gmat score. I'm also trying to decide whether or not to pursue an MSF or just get an MBA after a couple years. I am going to start working BO at a BB next month..

 

This thread has so many absolutes, and very few are accurate (marathon post coming...)

  1. “You can’t get into a top b-school with a CPA/accounting experience”

Is it the best work experience ever? No. In fact, it’s sort of shitty work experience for b-schools, but not the worst. You have a recognizable name brand employer and some solid client facing, team work experiences. Additionally, after two years, you’ll likely lead a team of 2-4 staff, which is a pretty solid leadership experience for someone early in their career. Every single year, top b-schools have CPAs in their classes. Will you have a great shot at H/S/W without something else outstanding? Probably not, but there are a lot of other very good schools that are doable and will get you to IBD

  1. “Auditors have no leadership experience or Extras outside of work”

The audit partner that you quoted, frankly, sounds like an idiot. He may be an admissions consultant, which is fine, but he generalizes insanely. I am also interested in how he has an admission consulting business when he didn’t go to or work at a business school. Why can’t an audit applicant have ECs? Moreover, as I mentioned above, auditors can actually have great leadership experience after only three or four years. Why wouldn’t a CPA understand why they need an MBA? It’s actually pretty obvious – I don’t like being an auditor, so I’d like to add value to my clients. Again, these are crazy generalizations that may be true overall, but very well may not apply to an auditor that is clear in his direction and wants to go to b-school

  1. “Just transfer to Deloitte S&O” and the opposite “It’s impossible to transfer from Deloitte Audit to S&O”

The second is actually close to true. Having done it, I have only met/heard of two others that have done so (I’m sure there are plenty others, but it’s a small amount). It’s incredibly hard. The firm will not support you in doing it. It’s not that no one respects your skills, it’s that they just don’t need you so they won’t go to bat for you. Much more feasible, and what I would recommend if you can’t do the above is to find a way into TAS or similar, like @TNA said. That’s usually a much more doable transfer and shows AdComs clear intention to move closer to adding value to clients, which will play well in your app.

Let’s just look at it like it is: you have a relatively uninteresting job that MBA Adcoms may have a slight stigma against. Okay. Be strong everywhere else. You have a good GPA, and will need to get a 700+ to get into a top ~15 school. From here on out, if you choose an MBA over an MSF (I know nothing about MSFs so none of my advice pertains to that), your first focus should be on the GMAT. Give them a reason to be interested in you from a numbers standpoint.

After that, you need to get involved both at the firm and outside of the firm. So your audit job sucks? You still have to do well at it, get promoted, and get good recs, but do more. Find a way to get involved with a cool business development initiative. Lead something for Community Service Day (Impact Day if you’re at Deloitte). Network with consulting people and see if you can get involved in some of their firm projects. Outside of work, do big time community service stuff. Find a way to lead something, somehow, that ideally, relates to your interests.

The last one is just generally, be interesting. Part of the reason why auditors have a stigma is because people (like the quoted audit partner above) have these generalizations that they’re no fun. To be honest, that’s probably right more than it’s wrong. Don’t be that – develop a cool hobby, do interesting things. Do something that you can talk about in essays and interviews that makes you jump out. If you’re interesting, have good numbers, and have had some success at work, you’ll get in somewhere.

 

Excellent post. Lots of questionable advice floating around this thread.

One other thought - why dont you try to make the transfer to banking without going back to school? If you learn how to model on your own and network, you should be able to land at a boutique shop. It wont be easy, but I have seen plenty of people make similar moves with some hustle and effort. After putting in your time there, you can then either move on, or head back to school for an MBA. A good plan B as others have suggested would be moving into a valuation/transaction advisory group at your firm - but if you can make that switch, I wouldnt bother with the MSF. Just stay on (assuming you arent miserable, differentiate your experience, and go to b school). As BGP mentions, coming from an accounting background is not going to be the thing that gets you dinged.

I really think you can get where you want to go without spending the time and money on an MSF.

 

I think that you have a very interesting background. If you can crack 700 on the GMAT, you will be in good shape for admissions. My first suggestion would be to work for another year (why do you say its shit if you get promoted 6 months into the job?) and then aim at entering an MBA program with 2 years of experience. I would almost advise you to concentrate on schools in NYC, so that you have plenty of alumni and are at ease for networking.

Maybe you want to get the opinion of someone more experienced though, like Sandy or Betsy. They can usually point out any flaws far more accurate than anyone on WSO.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing. See my Blog & AMA
 

Definitely an uphill battle, and I'm probably closer to understanding the frustrations attached to it then most of the other users on this site. I have basically the same GPA, no name private regional school, year into my job and wanting more. I've personally tossed the MSF idea because my current job pays a lot while not working me hard in the slightest, plus my boss is not a shit. If I were you, I would try to find another job that you enjoy and do that for 2 years and then get an MBA at somewhere like Stern which isn't a super superb MBA but has amazing IBD recruiting and the NYC network, and go in as an associate. I could probably type more and more about this because I battle the same conundrum each day but I'll refrain for now. From my own research, 700 puts you in solid shape, 750+ puts you in awesome shape without considering other factors. Betsy may suggest an alternative transcript as well.

Hope to see you succeed.

Frank Sinatra - "Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy."
 

Have you thought of doing something like ER? Real estate or REIT research might be something worth looking into and going back to school, coupled with a CFA (or comparable real estate certification, I have no experience with RE) and your real estate background, would probably make it a very viable option.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.
 

If you have the math courses, and got at least Bs in them, you may have a shot at Princeton. It may be worth applying although I'm not giving you double-digit odds. Being in real estate makes you an interesting candidate, at the very least. You are not the typical banking applicant.

If you don't have them, you can always take them part-time at the main state school in your city (if you live in a big city like New York, Chicago, SF, LA, etc)

If you had a 3.5 GPA from a state school, I'd be giving you 30% odds and calling you a reasonably competitive candidate.

If you had taken some evening math courses at a Baruch or a UIC or UW-Seattle and had pulled off a few A-s or As, I'd also be giving you 25-30% odds. I think the admissions committee at Princeton would look at your application and see all of the ingredients they'd want for you to be a strong candidate, except for the fact that academically, you look like a flake, and they can't have that. They don't want someone who'd have a killer interview for an Associate role in CMBS Sales at JPM and get the offer only to be unable to join the firm because you can't meet Princeton's minimum GPA requirement (3.0) for graduation. That would be bad for you and a terrible embarrassment for Princeton. Someone who can't graduate from Princeton because of a GPA problem is like a school bus driver who gets arrested for drunk driving taking kids home from school. Something like this should NEVER happen because you're supposed to be smart (or if you're a bus driver, a safe driver).

Frankly without some more recent part-time academic work on your own part that proves to yourself that you can handle it, you may not want to go back to grad school right now. If it were me, I'd want to know that I could handle the rigors of grad school (even an MBA program) before applying. You are probably a great employee and I really respect a lot of people who did badly in undergrad as coworkers, but I'm not sure how they would do in grad school despite their success in industry.

Incidentally, probability and linear algebra are really helpful courses for a lot of places in business, and they're also required for most MFE programs, including Princeton. You may want to take a linear algebra course this fall- it may not be too late to register. An A in more recent part-time courses would also go a long way towards cancelling the undergrad GPA as a negative factor in admissions.

I'd give it one or two more years. I know you're not enjoying corporate real estate right now, and I'm not saying you need to stay there. I'm just saying that you may do better in admissions if you can prove to the MBA and MFE/MFin adcoms that you can handle these classes.

 

You don't have the work experience for a top MBA right now. Honestly, with a 2.6, weakish work experience and a lower branded UG school I don't see you getting into a T15 program at all. Either way why waste your MBA chance this early in the game.

IMO, I would do one of two things. Leave your firm and do RE somewhere else with a better reputation/bigger firm, do that for 3-4 years, maybe take some classes or a certificate program from a well respect school to bump your GPA and THEN apply to a top MBA.

Or.

Look at MSF programs as a reset. Do better than a 2,6. Go to a higher ranked school than your UG. Do an internship and maybe try to leverage your real estate experience to go into REPE or maybe real estate AM at a bigger bank.

Your GPA is low, but you have a ton of EC's, work experience, a promotion and if you get a mid to high 600 on your GMAT I can see you getting into a variety of programs, some with money and some without. If your goal is to remain in the corporate finance side of the business then this would be the best bet.

 

By the way, another option just came to my mind would be to do a degree part-time at Harvard? You can do a great portion of the degree online and for the rest you have to in attendance. There was a very nice testimonial from a guy who was one of the few who actually graduate the Management program. He is now an independent investment banker. Maybe @dppe can chime in here and share his view on your question/my idea?

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing. See my Blog & AMA
 

Might I suggest doing something RE focused, but not exactly what you are doing now? Lot of banks have a commercial RE division. Maybe get work with a developer or something along those lines? Sales is a tough business, but you still know something about real estate. Get some Argus experience and try for something with a salary.

 

Why would you recommend a graded math class? He already has enough math for MSF/MBA programs. Best case is he gets an A in one math class. Most probably case is he gets a lower grade which doesn't help his case.

Don't waste time with ungraded classes, but unless you are dying to do a quant MFE program just find a business certificate program at a solid local school and knock that out.

 
TNA:

Why would you recommend a graded math class? He already has enough math for MSF/MBA programs. Best case is he gets an A in one math class. Most probably case is he gets a lower grade which doesn't help his case.

I believe he's interested in a Princeton/MIT MFin program. I believe both programs require some sort of linear algebra.

Don't waste time with ungraded classes, but unless you are dying to do a quant MFE program just find a business certificate program at a solid local school and knock that out.

Agree. My point is that an A in a graded linear algebra course would kill about two or three birds with one stone if MIT is on the table.

I think OP's prospects for grad school admission in general get better the further he is away from undergrad. I think every A he gets in a part-time course adds an extra six months of distance from undergrad in addition to the time elapsed (every C cuts six months). Linear algebra is one of many of those potential courses and frankly it's pretty useful everywhere in business, with or without an MFE.

MBA business schools">M7 is on the table if OP is doing well in corporate real estate, undergrad is at least five years (in terms of time elapsed and courses taken) in the rear view mirror, and OP can do something to convince the adcoms that he can handle the coursework.

 

"When it comes to admissions, I may as well throw out the M7 MBA programs and I'm not getting into Princeton or MIT's MSF programs either, but I've spoken to admissions people at "top" MSF programs and that 10-25 area of MBA programs and have gotten positive feedback."

I won't comment on Princeton since it isn't within the MSF space. With that said I think a 2.6 in a non-quant UG pretty much takes on out of the running for both MIT and Princeton with enough certainty that effort would be better spent applying elsewhere.

 
TNA:

"When it comes to admissions, I may as well throw out the M7 MBA programs and I'm not getting into Princeton or MIT's MSF programs either, but I've spoken to admissions people at "top" MSF programs and that 10-25 area of MBA programs and have gotten positive feedback."

I won't comment on Princeton since it isn't within the MSF space. With that said I think a 2.6 in a non-quant UG pretty much takes on out of the running for both MIT and Princeton with enough certainty that effort would be better spent applying elsewhere.

I guess the only problem I have here is that he may not need an MSF to get into a top MBA program or to get a good job in a different industry if he absolutely hates real estate.
 

I would agree with what @TNA and @IlliniProgrammer have said above...

You don't have the work experience necessary for an MBA yet and even if you were able to get into an MBA program you would be wasting that bullet. It's likely best to save that for later when looking to switch careers. At this stage I would do what Illini said and focus on trying to bolster the academic weaknesses in your candidacy by taking some quantitative courses and scoring well on them (this is if you are serious about MFE programs) and evaluate options to move into a role that is less sales / broker focused and more analysis focused. I think you should try to get your house in order to get into a strong MSF program; don't waste time worrying about an MBA at this stage as it isn't the appropriate time. If you can stay focused and turn your 2.6 UG performance into a 3.7 performance at a reputable MSF program, then you could be competitive for middle market banks and from there it's all about how well you do on the job. Then you still have the MBA for later if you decide that you want to change careers... That's how I would think about it at this point.

 

You're a year in, right out of school. I think you'd look fine. It is sales so there is a naturally high turn over. I'd make sure wherever you go next you camp out for 2.5-3 years before your next gig. That is if MBA applications are your end game.

 

The job you are in right now isn't optimal. I'd bail also haha. Check out the Big 4. A friend of mine and past MSF'ER is going RE stuff at KPMG I believe. A guy I used to talk with out in Chicago was doing something similar and lateraled to MS as a RE portfolio associate.

You have RE experience, but don't like the sales aspect. Fair enough. I'd look to utilize this knowledge into something more analytical or something you like more. No sense wasting time at a place that isn't paying, teaching or moving you forward.

 
TNA:

The job you are in right now isn't optimal. I'd bail also haha. Check out the Big 4. A friend of mine and past MSF'ER is going RE stuff at KPMG I believe. A guy I used to talk with out in Chicago was doing something similar and lateraled to MS as a RE portfolio associate.

You have RE experience, but don't like the sales aspect. Fair enough. I'd look to utilize this knowledge into something more analytical or something you like more. No sense wasting time at a place that isn't paying, teaching or moving you forward.

I'd still give it 18 months. The marginal resume value of months 13-18 are probably twice the value of months 1-12, and the value of months 18-24 are probably almost as high, too.

Less than 18 months makes you look like a flake/job hopper. I'd ask a lot of questions about why OP is leaving after just 14 months if I were a hiring manager, and without a prior job with 2-3 years there, OP is going to have a tougher time selling the fact he's not a job hopper.

So I think it's waaay easier to just wait until he crosses the 18 month marker to leave. (1) More people will be interested in hiring him (2) he'll have more potential references to go back to (3) he looks like less of a flake when the third hiring manager is looking at his resume.

Look, I stayed at least 24 months at both jobs I had and stayed 5 years at the same firm. I moved from being an ancillary programmer at a bank from a state school to going to a pretty good grad school and getting hired by a pretty good hedge fund by sticking stuff out for 24 months.

You don't have to do that, but unless you stay for 18 months, the time you've been there is completely wasted- it's a year of your career, work, life lost. And IMHO it's pretty good experience and the connections you've made are probably going to be helpful in the future if you stay generally close to real estate or sales.

So you're somewhat unhappy right now. I'm not sure you've seen unhappy on the level of some traders and some bankers. I think you'll be happier if you leave, but this could be a grass is greener situation. Given that this could be the case, my advice is to stick it out to the 18 month mark (just like I advise all of the IBD analysts who are miserable- you wouldn't believe how many come to WSO complaining and saying they want to quit even without another job in hand).

 

Lots of sage advice in this thread. I agree with IlliniProgrammer regarding working for at least 18 months. Ideally you'd work for 24 months before moving on. While it is certainly more common for people to change jobs frequently these days, a move before 18 months sends a pretty bad signal to future employers and universities.

IP may also be right in your experiencing the "grass is always greener" effect. A lot of people hate their first jobs. Your commented that "you don't make much money and your boss is shit," which pretty much describes almost every entry level job in the planet. Unfortunately it also describes pretty much every job on the planet. Try to assess the elements of the job that you truly dislike and determine if the job you're gunning for is going to be any different. I can assure you that you won't like your bosses in banking and if you end up at a regional, no-name boutique, you probably won't be making six figures. Also you must realize that the value of your first few jobs is really not in the paycheck, it is in the skills and resume boost that will enable you to build a career.

Regarding going back to school, I can't comment on the benefit of a MSF/MFIN because I simply don't know anything about the programs. I can say that you will not be a competitive MBA candidate until you have a couple more years of experience under your belt and you'll need a kick-ass gmat score to offset your low stats. With a 700+ I think you could gain admittance to a top 10-25 MBA as you mentioned.

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 

Just a data point for all of you out there. I quit a job after 5 months and it has had zero repercussions in my life. My buddy also just landed a corp dev job after 9 months at KPMG and a couple other short time jobs. I could continue, but you get the point.

You look like a job hopper when you do 1 year stints repeatedly. Leaving a job that isn't beneficial after a year isn't going to impact anything. As for recommendations, make friends within the firm and they will recommend you. I am still close friends with senior people at the job I left after 5 months and could get a rec if I needed.

 
TNA:

Just a data point for all of you out there. I quit a job after 5 months and it has had zero repercussions in my life. My buddy also just landed a corp dev job after 9 months at KPMG and a couple other short time jobs. I could continue, but you get the point.

You look like a job hopper when you do 1 year stints repeatedly. Leaving a job that isn't beneficial after a year isn't going to impact anything. As for recommendations, make friends within the firm and they will recommend you. I am still close friends with senior people at the job I left after 5 months and could get a rec if I needed.

Sure, but you left that off your resume, right? As in it was five months wasted in terms of work experience. You may have also had a prior job that you spent a couple years at before that.

The fact that you quit a job after five months may not hurt you but it certainly doesn't help. For experienced workers, sticking it out for two years is the new target school. Yes, you can graduate from the University of Iowa and land in a nice corporate development role with some luck, but it's a lot easier to do it from Cornell.

 

I still have it on my resume and I had it when I got the job at HSBC. The job wasn't an ideal fit and I accepted a better position that paid more. My friend still has his two short term roles on his resume. You can't continue to do this, but it isn't a big deal. People get laid off, firms downsize and you lateral somewhere else, better opportunities come up. Don't make a habit of bouncing every 12 months, but I don't think it is an issue at all.

And I don't consider it a waste at all. I made some great contacts that I still keep in contact with and I learned what I don't like.

Staying at a job that doesn't pay you, doesn't teach you and doesn't motivate you hurts you no matter how long you stay. I'd say a year is plenty, but if you want to grind it out for two years fine. Just make sure you quit and do a masters then. If not I would find something better, quit now and log in 3 years at the new, better job before going off for an MBA.

Time = Money. Don't waste either.

 

If it's not 16, 17 months, I say leave it off your resume. You are a much stronger candidate with 24 months of experience in any role than with 11 months in that same role.

That said, if you've only been there a few months and staying there is merely wasted time, I say leave.

Just because your boss is an asshole or the job is tough doesn't mean you should quit, though. Quit because you're not getting anything out of it career-wise, experience-wise, and money-wise AND because you hate your job. And just know that the time you spent there is wasted at best.

 
IlliniProgrammer:

If it's not 16, 17 months, I say leave it off your resume. You are a much stronger candidate with 24 months of experience in *any* role than with 11 months in that same role.

That's absurd. Like I don't know if you're actually being serious.
 

Maybe you got lucky. Maybe your undergrad experience was different from Thurnis's.

I come from a family of managers, including a senior partner at an accounting firm. He has hired and fired hundreds of people over his career, and his advice is to never quit before the 24 month mark. I've interviewed candidates for jobs in S&T and quant analytics. It's possible you may be able to get away with it, but why risk it?

1.) Don't quit without another offer. 2.) Unless that offer is moving from a boring role at a firm that doesn't do finance to a stable role in the FO at a bank, it's better to just wait 18 months. 3.) If you don't have at least a 3.5-3.6 from a well recognized undergrad school in a difficult major, and you don't currently have a job, but you did have a job that you quit or got fired from after 6 months, that's three strikes against you in the hiring process.

Bepbep you managed to get away with it, probably because you didn't quit without an offer. Your undergrad may have also helped you, and you may have gotten lucky by the fact that your new job didn't call your old job until they were ready to make an offer, or you had an understanding old manager.

I can assure you that the one question that manager did ask himself was "Is he going to quit on me after five months? Because then it's not worth it."

 

Look, some people say it's a terrible idea. Other people say you may be able to get away with it. I can say that a number of doors will be closed to you if you try to transfer this early. CompBanker's been involved in the FO hiring process; I've been involved in the FO hiring process. If you stay at a firm long enough and have a good enough career in finance, you get to help make these decisions. Quitting a job after six months is a huge red flag. Some people like BepBep may have been able to overcome that, but it never helps.

If you can land a nice stable job in the front office, and you currently have a job at a firm unrelated to finance that isn't helping your career in any way , it's maybe worth it. If you are already working for a bank and hate it, tough luck; wait 18 months. And if you do get the offer, you'd better stick it out for 18, really more like 24 months this time, even if you hate it. Still, even then it's a risk. If you lose your old job over this (and people have), and it's your first job, and you've only worked 5-6 months, you sorta become unemployable. If you get fired after 6 months, you become unemployable. If you quit after 6 months because you are pulling 100 hour weeks, you become unemployable.

Finally for every BepBep there's a friend of mine like- let's call him Tom. Tom graduated from an elite undergrad (think Amherst, Williams, Carleton), got hired by a boutique IBD (think Lazard, Greenhill, Evercore) back in 2007, quit after six months, and wound up being unable to get back into the industry despite really wanting to. Today he is working on startups, but he closed a lot of doors on himself with that.

 

I suppose a whole bunch of people got "lucky" with having jobs on their résumé that were less than 24 months.

You don't want to make a habit of it, but less than two years is zero issue. And this is coming from someone who sees endless resumes from kids, who knows and deals with just about every Adcom and who has reviewed resumes at my last job and has seen them at my current job.

Don't make a habit of quitting with less than a year but I think it is ludicrous to omit it from your résumé or not pursue a better opportunity because you're afraid of it looking bad.

 
TNA:

I love how countless people call bullshit on some of the advice in this thread only to be dismissed.

I don't want to keep responding to IP anymore because it's derailed the thread. It's also become oddly personal for no reason. I don't deny that it probably looks bad to have like 4 different jobs in 3 years, but to say that it looks better to have a gap in employment after college than a job for 12 months is just retarded. That's just saying shit to be contrarian and regardless of my personal situation I refuse to believe that bullshit. The only thing that will happen if you have a 12 month gap in your resume is they'll ask what you were doing that year and you'll tell them anyways. And then they'll just be suspicious about why you left it off.

I'm sorry I took part in derailing this thread.

 
TNA:

I love how countless people call bullshit on some of the advice in this thread only to be dismissed.

Agreed. Not putting a job on your resume because you only held it for 17 months (or whatever) is horrible advice. Also, from what I can tell, the OP's job is something close to minimum wage plus commissions. If you don't see any big commission checks on the horizon, start looking for another job where you can leverage your experience and spin it into something closer to what you want to do. I don't know why you're so dead set on banking, but that may be hard to get with your current experience.

Why don't you try looking for a new job and apply to a few MSF programs and take what gives you the best opportunity set at that point in time? That's really all you can do in life, increase the number of opportunities you have and be in a position to choose from the alternatives. Biding your time in an extremely low paying position is not going to increase your opportunity set.

 

I've posted this many times - and this is going to sound cheesy - but thanks for being open and very real about your experiences and path to improving your career situation. Lots of great advice is consistently generated in these threads. The life you live right now indeed sounds shitty, but it really was a life I was destined for (trying to make it in CRE) about 6 months-12 months ago. All the best, hope you catch a good break in the near-term.

 

I think top 15 MBA programs are out of the question at this point. You might be able to pull McCombs, Kenan, Tepper, Goizueta, but don't count on those either.

Your best bet is to do a MSF and re-brand yourself. Kick ass in the program and go through OCR.

A top 15 MBA is possible if you get serious work experience under your belt, solid extracurricular leadership, and preferably international experience. But such a venture will take 3-4 years, so it boils down to how patient you are and how badly you want a top MBA.

 
tesla.tesla:

I say go with the mba. Kill your GMAT and go to a top school. MSF's are good if you can get into the top ones (princeton, mit, etc). But honestly I think you'll get pre-screned with your gpa.

How would he get into a top MBA but not a top MSF with his gpa? Especially given his limited work experience. Plus I assume he has no other unique qualities (ie military, varsity athlete, etc) Not following the logic here.

 

Have you considered the possibility of volunteer\overseas activities that might strengthen your application to an MBA? They're not just number hungry, they want the qualitative sprinkles on top. Go teach English, or get involved with some start-up, or help the needy or whatever. Differentiate yourself, add some character to your application. If you've got the hours in the day, I think part-time continuing education in the subjects you don't already know is going to help cement your pheonix rising from the ashes story. Give them undeniable evidence of your desire, your ability and your potential.

One day more.
 
kingshark:

Have you considered the possibility of volunteer\overseas activities that might strengthen your application to an MBA? They're not just number hungry, they want the qualitative sprinkles on top. Go teach English, or get involved with some start-up, or help the needy or whatever. Differentiate yourself, add some character to your application.

The problem is the thousands of other people that think the exact same thing.
 

This will take a few years to implement, and extracurriculars by themselves won't be of much use if his GMAT and work experience are mediocre. His college GPA is now history (he could take quant courses at a local college or reputable online and get A's in those or do CFA to demonstrate his academic bona fides), but he could improve on the others.

Also, be careful with getting involved in too many volunteering projects. What matters is the quality and depth of your involvement. Make sure to get at least 1 solid leadership experience in there.

 

I graduated with a 2.8 from a strong private non-ivy, I guess the term would be semi-target with a degree in engineering. I started working for a no-name construction manager, and was doing just fine, except for the depressing lack of pay, a path forward, prestige, etc. I had thoughts about quitting within the first year for sure. I ended up sticking it out for 2.5 years, in an effort to meet the infamous "24 month" rule that was so hotly debated in this thread earlier. I am 100% on the side of getting at least 24 months of WE before moving on. Right at 2 years, I started seriously applying to jobs through my network, and landed a few interviews. The hardest part was trying to convince people to give me an interview for a job in finance when my experience consisted of managing union labor crews for civil construction projects. I also set my eyes on a MBA in the chance that A) I wasn't able to land any job in my desired industry, or B) the job that I landed would be a "compromise" and still need evolving to get to where I wanted. I took the GMAT and got an acceptable 690 and tucked that away. I also started picking up all kids of ECs to help build out my profile, as well as took an online extension course in a quant subject and got an A. Ultimately, I landed at an investment manager last fall, working on their fixed income team, which is great - but not my ideal landing spot. I got offered a 18 month contract, since I was up front about wanting to do bschool later.

I'm currently applying to MBA programs for round 1, and am going with Wharton, Tuck, Fuqua, Darden, Ross, and Johnson. Obviously some of those are reaches, but I'm basically trolling for a break with my GPA, so I went with a spray and pray approach. Since I had the GMAT and courses out of the way early, I was able to start on essays early, allowing me to apply to 6 schools in R1 without going too crazy (kind of).

I have no idea how this plan will work out - I wish I could tell you that this is a viable path. I think you should do something similar, though. Stick it out at your RE firm for another year, then start applying where you want to be. Simultaneously gear up for MBA admissions - research, GMAT, etc. If you land a cool job, you can drop the MBA game, and roll on. If you don't, apply in a few years and see how it goes.

This post really got away from me, but you get the point. Let me know if you or anyone else has any questions. Good luck!

 

From all the MBA posts I have seen on WSO, I can conclude that if you don't get at least M7/top 15 schools, then MBA is virtually unless especially considering the opportunity cost and the debt.

Also just a heads up GS doesn't have M&A, they do it within their industry groups. Hope that helped and good luck in your future applications!

 

You should avoid an MBA and MSF and shoot for a Financial Advisor role at a good firm. Any moron can get one of those positions and if you want to work hard (as you say you do), this role will at least be halfway respectable and give you a chance to make some good money with a good lifestyle.

Not being a dick here, but I have a very hard time when I look at a resume and see a 2.6 at State School in a weak major.

Go be a Financial Advisor or Equity Sales person, those people come from all walks of life and usually have shitty resumes (but can do well for themselves in such roles.)

 

I think you should apply for MSF programs and see where you get in. Based on the schools you can get in, make an informed decision whether to pursue the degree or not. (meaning don't go unless you get into a top program)

Same deal with MBA. Go if you get into a top program and if you feel that the MBA degree is suitable for your career interests. Don't go if you don't crack top 15 MBA admissions.

Regarding MBA, I am not even sure if top 15 is worth it, at sticker price. I know one guy from my high school who did his MBA at UCLA and came out of the program feeling bitter and just really pissed. He was making 80k before MBA, then he came out of MBA making 75k... after dumping 160k on his degree. From this, I realized that doing an MBA is a big gamble and may not pay off even if you go to a top ranked program. (maybe different story if you go to an M7 MBA)

 

Just wanted to say this is a great thread. I know atleast for myself and most of my friends this is a very common situation. Start first job out of school and are very bored or are doing very different work from what you thought and hoped you would be doing. Most of us started talking about different grad schools within our first 3 months. I am coming up on finishing 2 years at my job, and there is a lot of really good info in here.

 

Really odd responses to IP. I get what people are saying that infrequent short stints won't kill you, so aren't you basically agreeing with him on the larger point? People are starting to speak past one another. Dont understand the chippiness toward a guy who gave a crapload of good advice (as did TNA). No good deed...

I know people do switch jobs more often in this day and age, maybe I'm just old.

 

I'll add a slightly different perspective. I jus skimmed through this thread, and there's a bunch of good stuff and perspectives, but apologies if someone touched on this.

I faced a similar situation out of college. I went to a top liberal arts school (semi-target, depending on where), got okay grades at best (3.2), and focused far more on my varsity sport than I did on class or my post college career. At one point, however, I decided to major in accounting and business because some upper-classmen told me to, and when it came time to look for a job, I got a job as Big 4 Auditor.

It was a total disaster, like you'd expect. It was mind-numbing, miserable, boring, and worked with for the most part, unimpressive people. I pretty quickly realized I wanted out, but like you and othes have mentioned in this thread, worried about staying for X amount of months to avoid looking bad. I started looking around anyway, at least to see what was out there, and actually realized that I was thinking about it completely wrong. I had decided I wanted to get into consulting (liked the client aspect of my job), and the feedback I got was get out of there quickly, or else you'll be branded as an accountant and never be able to get consulting. This was obviously hyperbole, but I realized that the faster I got out, the better off I would be.

I ended up staying about 18 months in accounting, and even that was too long. Three years later, having done a whole bunch of strategy and operations projects, I still have to deal with the branding of being a CPA. I don't know if I would have been able to get a job if I started looking after a year (probably would not have been, since I transferred to S&O within Deloitte and ability to do that was based a lot on year-end performance reviews). However, I do think it's important that branding and stigma can come from a few directions, not just length of tenure on your resume.

Personally, I think it's your first job. Not everyone is a WSO rockstar that knows their junior year of high school that they need to go to one of 12 targets to get a BB IBD job to eventually get into PE. I will say, though, that the longer you stay at a job, the more responsibility you get (obviously). That pays off personally, because more responsibility for a driven person typically means more fulfillment, and professionally, with more good things to write about for MBA apps or talk about in interviews.

 
BGP2587:

I'll add a slightly different perspective. I jus skimmed through this thread, and there's a bunch of good stuff and perspectives, but apologies if someone touched on this.

I faced a similar situation out of college. I went to a top liberal arts school (semi-target, depending on where), got okay grades at best (3.2), and focused far more on my varsity sport than I did on class or my post college career. At one point, however, I decided to major in accounting and business because some upper-classmen told me to, and when it came time to look for a job, I got a job as Big 4 Auditor.

It was a total disaster, like you'd expect. It was mind-numbing, miserable, boring, and worked with for the most part, unimpressive people. I pretty quickly realized I wanted out, but like you and othes have mentioned in this thread, worried about staying for X amount of months to avoid looking bad. I started looking around anyway, at least to see what was out there, and actually realized that I was thinking about it completely wrong. I had decided I wanted to get into consulting (liked the client aspect of my job), and the feedback I got was get out of there quickly, or else you'll be branded as an accountant and never be able to get consulting. This was obviously hyperbole, but I realized that the faster I got out, the better off I would be.

I ended up staying about 18 months in accounting, and even that was too long. Three years later, having done a whole bunch of strategy and operations projects, I still have to deal with the branding of being a CPA. I don't know if I would have been able to get a job if I started looking after a year (probably would not have been, since I transferred to S&O within Deloitte and ability to do that was based a lot on year-end performance reviews). However, I do think it's important that branding and stigma can come from a few directions, not just length of tenure on your resume.

Personally, I think it's your first job. Not everyone is a WSO rockstar that knows their junior year of high school that they need to go to one of 12 targets to get a BB IBD job to eventually get into PE. I will say, though, that the longer you stay at a job, the more responsibility you get (obviously). That pays off personally, because more responsibility for a driven person typically means more fulfillment, and professionally, with more good things to write about for MBA apps or talk about in interviews.

Having a branding you don't think you want isn't a bad thing. I thought I didn't want to be a programmer back in '08-'09. Today, I make more money with that background than I would with a trading background.

My programming background pigeon-holed me in some ways, and it held me back a bit for my first and second jobs. For my third job, as a quant strategist, having spent 30 months at that first job is a GODSEND.

CPA experience is going to hurt you until you become a CFO. Then having spent 18 months as a CPA will be a godsend for you.

So no, I wouldn't necessarily discount the experience.

 
BGP2587:

I'll add a slightly different perspective. I jus skimmed through this thread, and there's a bunch of good stuff and perspectives, but apologies if someone touched on this.

I faced a similar situation out of college. I went to a top liberal arts school (semi-target, depending on where), got okay grades at best (3.2), and focused far more on my varsity sport than I did on class or my post college career. At one point, however, I decided to major in accounting and business because some upper-classmen told me to, and when it came time to look for a job, I got a job as Big 4 Auditor.

It was a total disaster, like you'd expect. It was mind-numbing, miserable, boring, and worked with for the most part, unimpressive people. I pretty quickly realized I wanted out, but like you and othes have mentioned in this thread, worried about staying for X amount of months to avoid looking bad. I started looking around anyway, at least to see what was out there, and actually realized that I was thinking about it completely wrong. I had decided I wanted to get into consulting (liked the client aspect of my job), and the feedback I got was get out of there quickly, or else you'll be branded as an accountant and never be able to get consulting. This was obviously hyperbole, but I realized that the faster I got out, the better off I would be.

I ended up staying about 18 months in accounting, and even that was too long. Three years later, having done a whole bunch of strategy and operations projects, I still have to deal with the branding of being a CPA. I don't know if I would have been able to get a job if I started looking after a year (probably would not have been, since I transferred to S&O within Deloitte and ability to do that was based a lot on year-end performance reviews). However, I do think it's important that branding and stigma can come from a few directions, not just length of tenure on your resume.

Personally, I think it's your first job. Not everyone is a WSO rockstar that knows their junior year of high school that they need to go to one of 12 targets to get a BB IBD job to eventually get into PE. I will say, though, that the longer you stay at a job, the more responsibility you get (obviously). That pays off personally, because more responsibility for a driven person typically means more fulfillment, and professionally, with more good things to write about for MBA apps or talk about in interviews.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I PM'ed you with a question. Thanks.

 

I'm in a similar situation, well, sort of.

I had a 2.8 in CC before having a 3.3 in my final 2 years at a state school. My cumulative undergrad GPA sucks as you can see. I took a corp fin course at UCLA Extension and am currently enrolled in a Stats course, I got an A in finance and am hoping to get an A in stats too. For my situation, 2 classes seem sufficient, I'm not sure if taking 2 courses for you would be enough given that you're only a year out of undergrad (I've been out of school for nearly 3 years now).

Rack up on quality EC's, nail the GMAT, create an alternative transcript (2-3 classes), nurture your mentor relationships (for recommendations) and hope for the best. I would most definitely do an MBA if I were in your position. I know that you don't want to work another 2-3 years in this industry but to be honest dude, you put yourself in this situation so I would get the mindset that you need to ride it out and deal with it. A reputable MBA will open wayy more doors for you than a MFin.

Just my .02

 

Is it as bad to change jobs frequently if you are moving to a clearly higher level position? I worked as a temp in payables for 6 months. I just started at a residential mortgage audit firm as a processor (slightly higher than data entry but could be spun to be fairly analytical in an interview). I am planning to go for an MSF pretty soon. Out of MSF I feel like I will be applying for jobs that are so far ahead of my previous ones no one would question why I switched. Is this an unrealistic expectation?

I make $15 an hour right now and I can't imagine someone questioning why I left when I apply for jobs that make 2-3 times that much and are far more analytical. Am I totally off base?

 

I'd probably take IP's advice on this one and leave off the crappiest position. No need to have two short term gigs, just leave the most recent one on as some form of experience. Make sure you stay at your eventual job for 2-3 years though so you get experience on your resume.

 

Interesting post. I too am contemplating the same decision (MBA vs MSF). I think the main thing is for you to sorta decide what you want to do (work wise). From reading your post I couldn't tell. What's the end and/or middle-term game? Where do you want to end up?

If you move to another job, are you going to be willing to put off b school for a few years? Or would you put in a year and leave for school? If you're set on going to b school soon, then switching jobs should be off the table?

If putting off the MBA for a few years, as someone mentioned earlier, a commercial bank may not be a bad option. Without an MBA, I've seen a couple of credit analysts in corporate banking groups (larger corp deals, syndications) lateral to analyst positions in capital markets groups (fixed income) and public finance groups, with good networking. This was outside of NYC, tho.

 

First, I would agree with the premise that as long you're learning and developing skills at something remotely relevant, you're not completely wasting your time. Additionally, it's quite possible that those skills will be useful for you in the future.

However, where I disagree is that no branding is bad branding. I don't want to be a CFO. Let's say my career goal is to do Corporate Strategy* at a pre-IPO startup. Unfortunately, because I was a CPA for 18 months, all my consulting projects/cases for eight years have been focused on the Office of the CFO, and I missed out on some pure strategy projects because of my branding. I may be very qualified to go be a CFO or equivalent lower position atone of these companies, a role that my CPA experience would be awesome for. However, I will have no shot at the job I really want because my branding led my career in a specific direction that was not a good path to my goal.

That story was obviously an exageration. I would not let my career go downa road for eight years without finding a way to change directions. Obviously, you'd agree with that. All I'm saying is that right now, I'm at an interesting crossroad, and if I didn't have the ability to go "rebrand" at business school, it would be a serious challenge. I would not consider that branding good.

*Caveat that having CPA skills is obviously good experience for just about any role in business. The point is not that the experience isn't relevant, but that it was shaping my career in a way that I was not happy with. I also think OP does not feel that his current experience will even be relevant at all, making it more pressing that he consider the effect of continuing in that role.

 

My first suggestion would be go for some span of experience in the field you have interest in. after that look for MBA from amity university which has various specializations with built environment, good professionalism with great career in future.

 

How do you factor in marginal benefit here, versus marginal cost?

For a competitive MSF candidate with a fellowship you're looking at ~20k out of pocket and some spending cash. Whereas a top 15/20/etc. MBA you're walking away with 200k in debt, period.

If someone could speak to their thought process on this that'd be great.

(Disclaimer- may need a game changer if this CFA doesn't do the trick).

I'm on the pursuit of happiness and I know everything that shine ain't always gonna be gold. I'll be fine once I get it
 
pktkid10:

How do you factor in marginal benefit here, versus marginal cost?

For a competitive MSF candidate with a fellowship you're looking at ~20k out of pocket and some spending cash. Whereas a top 15/20/etc. MBA you're walking away with 200k in debt, period.

If someone could speak to their thought process on this that'd be great.

(Disclaimer- may need a game changer if this CFA doesn't do the trick).

I think the marginal benefit for both programs is going to depend heavily on your background and opportunities. The marginal benefit is something on the order of a 12 variable function where the variables are going to be heavily interdependent.

Here are the most important factors:

1.) Current/future opportunities without the MSF.

2.) Undergraduate GPA. 3.) Undergraduate school 4.) Undergraduate major (all three of these variables interact very heavily, so if you want to break down the analysis, you still need to look at these three guys together).

5.) What you enjoy doing.

6.) Overall quantitative/verbal/business abilities- your raw skills as an individual that can't be learned or acquired.

7.) Work experience, if any.

2-4 and 6-7 combine to form your opportunities WITH the MSF.

Here is my view on an MSF. The expected outcome of an MSF for a reasonably risk-averse person is something on the order of a middle-office job at a bank- maybe a little better. Some people land in the front office, but not everyone. So I think the breakeven, after you factor in about $35K in expenses and a year of your time, is a risk management role. If you can land in risk or analytics, take that job.

An MFE can sometimes be worth it if you have a full-time job at a bank. If you are sitting in that ambiguous area where you're kinda front-office but kinda not, and you come from a state school engineering/CS undergrad, this is where an MFE can really shine, help you rebrand, and help solidify your place in the front office. But it's also a risk. Not unlike leaving PE to get an MBA.

In many cases, if you can get your foot in the door at a bank, and you don't have an undergrad you are embarrassed of, an MSF probably doesn't help you and you should focus on an MBA. There are exceptions for MFE and MFin programs.

In many cases, if you can't get your foot in the door at a bank, AND your GPA sucks, OR you don't have a relevant education for a bank (EG you did your undergrad in liberal arts), an MSF can help you rebrand and would ultimately help more than it would hurt with an MBA.

I've never met a quant with a master in finance (one or two with master's degrees in Econ). I guess you could go on to do a Finance PhD, but if the MSF is your last degree, I'd imagine it would be harder to land in an analytics or portfolio strategy group.

That's my take on this, but I'd defer to ANT if he strongly disagrees on anything on the MSF front.

Finally, I'd like to point out that while an MBA is more expensive, there's also about $20-40K worth of tax efficiencies you can take advantage of if you'll be working and saving for a few years before starting school for any graduate program.

There's a lot of advice out there on making your MBA tax-deductible, but this only works for people with prior full-time work experience. You can also shift your income into years that you won't be working through a pre-tax 401K. Tax efficiencies are saving me about $20K on my MFin.

I'm not sure the cost will be $200K + opportunity costs in four or five years- it's currently $155-160K and could get there, but the bubble in education seems to be weakening. So I think a fair estimate of the cost in four years is $160K after the tax efficiencies.

 
Best Response

MBA is a management degree. Outside of a top school your best bet would be to do something PT. Problem is, once you do an MBA you really can't do another one. Plus, you don't really have enough work experience to make it worth it.

MS in Finance is entirely finance focused. It used to be an academic degree, but is becoming more professional focused. Think CFA level 1 ~ 2 in a 1 year program. Different schools have different selling points. Depending on where you want to go to school and ultimately do will lead you to different schools.

MSF Schools:

BC Vanderbuilt Villanova USF John Hopkins U of Illinois Urban Champagne Etc

MSCS or MFin

CMU MIT Princeton (although I have had people say it is like halfway between MFin and MSF) Etc

There are off the top of my head.

 
ANT:
MBA is a management degree. Outside of a top school your best bet would be to do something PT. Problem is, once you do an MBA you really can't do another one. Plus, you don't really have enough work experience to make it worth it.

MS in Finance is entirely finance focused. It used to be an academic degree, but is becoming more professional focused. Think CFA level 1 ~ 2 in a 1 year program. Different schools have different selling points. Depending on where you want to go to school and ultimately do will lead you to different schools.

MSF Schools:

BC Vanderbuilt Villanova USF John Hopkins U of Illinois Urban Champagne Etc

MSCS or MFin

CMU MIT Princeton (although I have had people say it is like halfway between MFin and MSF) Etc

There are off the top of my head.

Hello Ant, nice comment, your view point of MBA vs MSF is quite impressing. I have a question about the compare between MSF and Ms of Financial Engineering. The latter is quite in fashion these years, which makes me confused about which to choose. I plan to put myself into a Asset Management routine. Will MSF or Ms of Fin Engineering help more? Many thanks for any feedback~

 

There's also masters of financial mathematics & masters of financial engineering.

Ace all your PE interview questions with the WSO Private Equity Prep Pack: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/guide/private-equity-interview-prep-questions
 

MS-FAIM at St. Mary's College of California is a great program, but a little on the choosy and expensive side. The campus is in downtown San Francisco, in the heart of the financial district.

 
HappyMoron:
MS-FAIM at St. Mary's College of California is a great program, but a little on the choosy and expensive side. The campus is in downtown San Francisco, in the heart of the financial district.

I'm the only Happy around here...

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

I am wondering if the practice of not publishing your GPA on your resume applies to MSF students/graduates as it does with MBA students/graduates? My cumulative GPA in undergrad was 2.8 however my final 2 years of undergrad (which was 10 years after my first two years of undergrad) I had a GPA of 3.7 and a BA-Finance major GPA of 3.6.

Part of the reason for pursuing a MSF was the hopes of being to apply to positions with my MSF GPA as opposed to my cumulative undergrad GPA. It would be frustrating to have a GPA of 3.7 or greater with a MSF degree and for it to not be common practice to advertise it.

 

I am about a quarter away from completing an MSF at Saint Mary's College of California. ANT is correct about MSF vs MFE. It really depends on if you are quant oriented. Of course you must be very math litterate for either route. Regarding your question about the program, basically you get a Masters while studying for the CFA because the program includes about 90% of the body of knowledge for the CFA. My classmates who are taking levels 1 and 2 are finding the CFA only somewhat challenging. (Compared to the general public, who will find it to be a bitch). One last benefit of the MS_FAIM at SMC is that you can apply your completed units toward the MBA program leaving only an additional 7-9 classes to obtain an MBA with an emphasis in Finance. This program would be very suitable for someone desiring to go into equity research or private equity etc. However if you don't plan on eventually taking the CFA exams, it may not be as attractive as say Berk or Santa Clara. Lastly if you actually pay for your own education (a rarity on this board), Saint Mary's is pretty affordable comparatively. I will end up getting my MSF and MBA for about $50k.

 

my question is is it risky to study such a narrow field and pursue "specialized" jobs with "specialized" degrees? say a few years down the road the business cycle changes for the worse and suddenly all jobs in your specialized field evaporated would you be able to leverage your experience and degree to jump compared to the MBA.

 

I'm surprised a lot of people have not chimed in on this subject.

That article sums up why I chose a M.S.F instead of an M.B.A. However, I have yet to start my program.

Can anyone comment on their experience?

 

I think the article is nice, but a little incorrect.

MBA's make more money because of two factors.

1) Experience 2) MBA brand

Example.

A Wharton MBA will make more money, starting out, than a Vanderbilt/Villanova/WUSTL MSF student, adjusting for experience. Better brand = more money.

Outside of the top 15 MBA programs, adjusting for experience, I think MSF students, on average, make more. Why? Because outside of a T15 program you see very little banking recruitment and mainly F500 recruitment. In an MSF program you generally see a chuck of students 25-50% go for some sort of FO finance position.

So if you are thinking about a grad degree from a non top MBA program, you might want to consider a specialized masters. Less tuition, less time out of work, specialized education and a shot at FO.

 

Hmmm, OK, if I have it right you went to a top UG with a 3.6 and have 3 years of post college work experience as an entrepreneur. I think you might be a decent top MBA candidate which might suit you better. Lets be frank, you sound like a self starter who knows how to make money. Do you really want to come in as an analyst? I think if you got into a solid program and managed to get an IB summer internship you could easily come in as an associate.

What I would do :

1) You went to a top program, use that network to get yourself some contacts and start building your pipeline now 2) I would even go so far and try and get an unpaid internship so you have some banking experience prior to your MBA/MSF application 3) Once you are in a program make sure you get another internship to further bolster your resume and shoot for associate position

Outside of Princeton I think you might have issues with an MSF simply because most firms will put you in the analyst category and once they look at your resume they will pass over you because you would appear over qualified.

IF you decide to go the MSF route (I am not encouraging it) make sure you go for a top program or get as many solid internships as possible.

Here is my blog, I basically list every MSF program you could want (I don't have Euro programs yet, but that is coming soon). I also include placements and costs to help with the decision.

http://msfhq.com

Good luck!

 
AnthonyD1982:
Hmmm, OK, if I have it right you went to a top UG with a 3.6 and have 3 years of post college work experience as an entrepreneur. I think you might be a decent top MBA candidate which might suit you better. Lets be frank, you sound like a self starter who knows how to make money. Do you really want to come in as an analyst? I think if you got into a solid program and managed to get an IB summer internship you could easily come in as an associate.

What I would do :

1) You went to a top program, use that network to get yourself some contacts and start building your pipeline now 2) I would even go so far and try and get an unpaid internship so you have some banking experience prior to your MBA/MSF application 3) Once you are in a program make sure you get another internship to further bolster your resume and shoot for associate position

Outside of Princeton I think you might have issues with an MSF simply because most firms will put you in the analyst category and once they look at your resume they will pass over you because you would appear over qualified.

IF you decide to go the MSF route (I am not encouraging it) make sure you go for a top program or get as many solid internships as possible.

Here is my blog, I basically list every MSF program you could want (I don't have Euro programs yet, but that is coming soon). I also include placements and costs to help with the decision.

http://AnthonyD1982.Wordpress.com

Good luck!

I definitely think the MBA program would suit you really well. You may even make some contacts and generate some ideas that lead you away from finance and back into your owning your own company again...this time with a little more knowledge and a much larger network to leverage for ideas, etc. Good luck.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 

Hey there, I'm actually in the same boat as you however I graduated from a not so highly ranked school ( Baruch ). I co-founded a startup that now has 7 people on the team. I got a great amount of leadership experience by helping build up the company and collaborating on team projects .

I have an idea that may work for you:

Perhaps you can hire an intern or someone part time to work for you just so you can get your 'team/ leadership' experience, but more importantly if that person is well trained they can perhaps run the business while you are away in school, giving you some cash flow.

Good luck with your applications, I think I am applying this year as well, but im a horrible standardized test taker.

 

Hey Anthony,

Love your blog!

Question. How does Villanova do in terms of placement in Sales and Trading? (Not prop shops) And also pct. wise placement in general?

I have a 3.4 GPA in Finance. great internships, JD from Tier 3 law school (B average, some messy grades though) Do NOT want to practice law.

Thinking that if I can gain entry into some sort of Finance/Regulatory position, then get the MSF in two years, I can jump in.

The problem is that I have NO work experience in S&T. Thoughts?

 

Villanova places mainly in MM IB and Credit Analysis. We have very little corporate finance placement which surprises me.

As for S&T. I know of a handful of Villanova MSF trades, but no institutional sales guys. I know a TON of Villanova UG who are in trading though.

Would I recommend Villanova (or any MSF program with the exception of Princeton) for trading? Probably not. If you want to be a trader then you either a) Get an Trading assistant position and bust your ass b) Top MBA c) Masters in Financial Math, Computational Finance, etc.

MSF can place in trading, but is more of a banking/Asset Management type degree.

Go to www.quantnet.com and check out their forum. You will see a lot of quant masters degrees reviewed.

My advice:

       You have a JD. Get a job in compliance or something legal with a large bank. Start networking with the traders or higher ups. That might work. 

       You might also want to look into sales. Many times sales guys are hybrids and do trading also. Either way you will be working closely with the traders and it could be a way in. Sales is about effort and a good story so I feel that is is more forgiving to people with odd backgrounds then other aspects of finance. 
 

Thanks for the advice. The thing about the hardcore finance programs on QuantNet is that I couldn't get in the best ones because of a lack of that type of undergrad background to qualify. You said you wouldn't recommend any MSF aside from Princeton for trading? What about Tulane though? I thought that they are good for trading energies.

 

Tulane places well down south/Texas, but I don't I don't know specifically for trading. I am not saying you can't get into trading from an MSF program, but that it isn't the most common path I suppose.

Let me put it to you like this. If you are dead set on being a trader and nothing else I couldn't tell you 100% that a MSF would get you the job. It might and I do know people from my program who are doing trading, but it doesn't happen with the frequency needed for me to recommend it.

 

OK. Don't mean to badger you....But how was your experience at Villanova? How were the professors? Are you happy with your placement? Are most students happy with their placement?

Also, what did you find that Villanova offered that was unique that distinguished it from other programs?

I really like the Fellows program and believe me, after three years of law school, I am salivating over the MSF program at Villanova. Need some relief. That Applied Finance Lab looks good to me.

 

Yeah, I enjoyed my time at Villanova. The website is shit and needs to be revamped. Professors are great and helpful. The program has a good mix of classes and is flexible. Honestly, the best parts of the program for me are the stuff that the damn website doesn't mention.

Once a month, on Friday, a PhD student would come in and present their research in front of all the professors and any MSF students who would show (~10 students). We had an opportunity to discuss and critique and watch the professors go to town on those guys. Let me tell you, seeing a couple of those students get raked over the coals made up my mind real quick about a PhD lol. Regardless, a lot of great ideas and pretty cool to be part of that process.

Usually 3 times a month, on Thursday evening, we would have value investors come in and speak to us. Real deap value, special situation type investing. We had guys who dealt with coal and leasing land to coal companies come in and give a top to bottom overview of the coal industry and how they find value in it. All types of guys. I found it fascinating.

I was on the CFA research team which did very well. I was also on a CME trading competition with a friend. We finished 16th out of 97 (which was total bullshit because we went about it like traders vs a bunch of kids just making huge out of the money bets and winning big). It was a great experience and we learned a lot.

My whole program went to a financial conference in Ohio. A lot of great speakers and tons of fun. I went to the Net Impact conference for the school. I also went to an economics conference in Philly.

The campus is beautiful and the area is amazing. There is a Ferrari dealership 10 blocks up the road if that gives you any idea of the wealth in the area.

I personally like Philadelphia. I found a great mezzanine debt internship in center city. Did that for 4 months. I have an interview for another internship coming up. There are plenty of shops to intern at and a lot of MM finance places in the area.

Long story short, I loved the school. Villanova is the 2nd best school in the area (Penn being the best). I think that is pretty good company to be in. In every competition the MSF program was in we either beat or lost to Wharton students (UG & MBA). Nova alumni are very loyal and will gladly speak to you and help you out.

PM me and we can talk about the fellowship program, I know a lot about it.

Let me just say that while I love Villanova I think Vanderbilt,BC, WUSTL, UVA, Duke, etc are all great programs with different strengths. I would be happy to answer questions about those or direct you towards people in those programs who could be of more help. I say it a lot, MSF programs are regional and it is really hard to rank them per say. It is really all about what you want to do and where you want to work.

Http://MSinFinance.Wordpress.com

 

Wow! Sounds like you're right. They need to revamp the website a WHOLE lot! I wouldn't have guessed all of this was going at Villanova!

Yes. Let's talk more about the Fellowship program. I'm sending you a PM in a minute.

 

Villanova's website NEEDS:

1) student profiles (this helps a lot in giving people an idea of placement) 2) more info on trading competitions 3) more info on the fellowship 4) List of companies recruiting with a breakdown of types of jobs

 

Your gut is correct. I originally wanted to do my MSF at Syracuse (it was right after UG so I would of been a typical 5th year MSF student). I was also naive at the time.

The Syracuse MSF is for MBA students who want to dual degree. I basically double majored in finance when I went there (no minor, just took a ton of extra finance classes). I tried for the MSF, but there literally were not enough finance classes for me to take. I am ultimately glad it never happened for a variety of reasons.

1) MSF programs need to be independent. At most MSF programs all the students have UG's in finance or economics. Sometimes you see math majors, engineering majors , liberal arts, but they are the minority. Why is this good? Well if everyone has an academic background in finance you can jump right to the more advanced material. Typical MBA programs (even top ones) have a mix of backgrounds. Plus you have people who have been working for a while. Out of necessary you need to start at a more intro level just to get everyone to speed. There is no intro level at a good MSF program.

2) You need diversity. Florida has a good MSF with solid placements and everyone is from the UG. This is the exception to the rule I think. I know Villanova is like 20% from the UG and 80% from different UG institutions. Vanderbilt is about the same. Princeton is almost 100% (at least this class). Having people with different experiences really adds something to the program I think.

3) Recruiting. You need to have some solid OCR if you want top candidates. Obviously Princeton and MIT are kind. Villanova/Vandy/BC/WUSTL all had solid MM firms or great alumni connections. I am not 100% familiar with other schools as of yet, but UoF places very well, as do a bunch of other places. This is where you really need to do some research.

All those things Syracuse does not have. I loved the school for UG, but it would have been a bad choice for the MSF. In the future, if they decide to focus on the program, I think it could be a competitor. As of right now the MSF is an afterthought there.

 

Yes. Vandy is solid too! I do believe however that they may be pulling a fast one on students by suggesting that S&T is an avenue for entry by enrolling in the MSF. The people that pull that off likely have undergrad degrees in engineering and/or mathematics.

 

Crazy Question...Which MSF programs do you think attracts the type of type-A people that are completely obsessed with being Gordon Gekko...i.e. guys from NY and elsewhere that "grew up" on Boiler Room, Rogue Trader, Wall Street? Do nothing else in their free time but watch those films and read the WSJ, Financial Times, etc. By the way, is Villanova this type of program?

 

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