Good post, I definitely agree with most of what you said. I do think that the entitlement applies across the board, even among hard working bankers and the like. I think too much individualism/entitlement is a problem for modern society as a whole. It's amazing that we wake up every morning to running water, that we can go to work, and be paid for that work.

 

Couldnt agree more. My freinds I grew up with either work in vanilla jobs or with their parents companies. Suffice to say, NONE of them have any ambition to do anything. They have zero comprehension of what it takes to get jobs in finance. Two if my freinds once had an intervention with me in 4th year telling me that I should quit my unpaid internship and drop all my case competitions and enjoy life. My parents went threw a divorce in 1st year and it fucked my shit up hard so I had a huge uphill climb to be even noticed by guys in target schools and 3.0+ GPAs. I couldnt afford to drop anything I was doing because I didnt want to end up like them, doing shit all with my life. I went from a 1.2 CGPA and getting kicked out for a year to getting interviews with bulge brackets for banking, PE and corporate banking by eattting shit while having a smile on my face. Now, they think I performed some sort of witch craft to be able to make what I make and they sit down and bitch at me about how they only make 30-40k. In the words of Will Emerson from Margin Call "Fuck normal people".

 
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Congratulations for overcoming adversity but let's drop the ego-mania. Claiming your friends have "no ambition to do anything" because they work in what you consider to be vanilla jobs is just ridiculous.

There is nothing wrong with the individual that works their way up from 30K/year and retires at 70K/year. Working middle-class jobs isn't indicative of ambition, nor would I describe it as "doing shit." No matter what the salary discrepancy is, I will always respect the math teacher, fire fighter, or even corporate grinder just as much as the PE-guy.

Fuck normal people? No. Do what makes you happy and if it's finance or nursing, so be it.

Also, there have been several posts that seemed to suggest that marital success is somehow related to career ambition or something. I couldn't disagree more. Who you marry is by far the most important decision you will ever make and it is ultimately what will drive your happiness. It doesn't matter if you make 20K or 2MM... if you hate your wife, you will hate your life.

 

Agree in terms that there is plenty of respect for working middle class jobs. But I will get upset when these people vote to raise taxes on anyone who makes more than them... But I guess everyone will look out for themselves, so I must do the same.

 
qbison:

Congratulations for overcoming adversity but let's drop the ego-mania. Claiming your friends have "no ambition to do anything" because they work in what you consider to be vanilla jobs is just ridiculous.

There is nothing wrong with the individual that works their way up from 30K/year and retires at 70K/year. Working middle-class jobs isn't indicative of ambition, nor would I describe it as "doing shit." No matter what the salary discrepancy is, I will always respect the math teacher, fire fighter, or even corporate grinder just as much as the PE-guy.

Fuck normal people? No. Do what makes you happy and if it's finance or nursing, so be it.

Also, there have been several posts that seemed to suggest that marital success is somehow related to career ambition or something. I couldn't disagree more. Who you marry is by far the most important decision you will ever make and it is ultimately what will drive your happiness. It doesn't matter if you make 20K or 2MM... if you hate your wife, you will hate your life.

Reading comprehension fail, you idiot. Read the original post again.

 

SB'd. I think one of the saddest thing that will happen in most people's lives ( I include everyone on this board, we aren't immune to this) is waking up and realize we did not do anything worthwhile and will never have the chance to correct it. I speak to the lazy unambitious people who go home and watch TV 5-6 hours a day and to the high finance crowd. ( I doubt anyone on their deathbeds will have a burning desire that they spent more time in the office or got into HBS over Wharton)

 

Old thread but what the hell. I agree it would be terrible to wake up and realize you've lost the chance to do something worthwhile, however the definition of worthwhile wildly varies depending on the individual. Some people prioritize time with family, free time etc. over work. Granted, it can take a lot of hard work to get that free time. It's important to remember to find something that moves you and move it :).

 

One of the saddest things in my mind would be not living a deliberate life, and not aggressively seeking out what will make you happy. For some that could be developing good friends, making tons of money, doing service work, hanging out at the beach.... whatever. Life is really short. For those that get a huge rush out of doing deals and crushing spreadsheets.. i say do it with gusto and don't let your TV watching friends tell you otherwise. The converse applies as well.

I went to one of the HSW and I have to say that it was hands down best experience of my life. Most fulfilling. Most fun. Most meaningful personal growth. Incredible friends. It was worth every pound of shit I ate to get there and then some.

I suspect some readers may feel the same way about working at a bank or in PE. I say more power to you!

 

@Marcus_Halberstram - I'm with you on the general tone of what you're getting at, but the structure that it's being presented with is a tad peculiar. Your main gripe, from what I can tell (one I absolutely agree with), is that entitlement causes tons of problems and that entitled people are horrible. However, your title lines and lead in sentences seem to address laziness and a lack of ambition first and foremost, with entitlement being tangential to both rather than an independent problem. Additionally, you seem to treat those who are merely lazy and/or unambitious (sans entitlement) as acceptable despite your initial framing of the two maladies which, gives rise to a couple questions.

Do you think that entitlement, laziness, or a lack of ambition can exist mutually exclusively? Or do they follow each other? If they follow each other, which one, in your opinion, do you think holds primacy? Are lazy, unambitious people prone to entitlement? Or are entitled people prone to laziness and a lack of ambition?

I'm sure that since this was originally a comment, it was put together more quickly than a post/article would've been, perhaps resulting in a less than complete point. I'm geniunely interested in your thoughts here as you seem to have given this topic some consideration (tone doesn't come across well on internet boards and I don't want you to think I'm being a douchebag). Thanks!

"My caddie's chauffeur informs me that a bank is a place where people put money that isn't properly invested."
 

On a more serious note: finance is a business that pays out either on commission or revenue sharing. Honestly, I believe more jobs should be structured this way. Not all jobs, but more jobs. People would be motivated more and would make more money.

For me, I see the work world the way I did bartending back when I did that for a living. The non owner and non kitchen jobs were: 1. host for $8 an hour and stand around bored 2. waiter making $2 an hour + $100 to $200 a shift and hustle a bit 3. bartender making $2 an hour + $150 to $500+ a shift and run around like a crazy person 4. manager making $15 an hour standing around bored, but having a bit more 'status'.

I found that job #3 worked best for me. I'd really prefer to be surfing but if I have to work....then fuck you, pay me. My time is precious to me. I'm not currently in a job that will make me rich but it's really just a matter of time before I find my gravy train. The 2% annual raise and retirement package isn't what I signed up for. That's the mindset in finance: work hard and the payoff is better than most. Honestly, most people just don't care to work that type of job, and are better suited for jobs like type #2 or #1. Unfortunately, there are very few type #2 jobs in the rest of the labor force, if you carry out this analogy.

Most real world jobs are either 1. hourly/salary or 2. commission. There are very, very, very few decent jobs outside of finance that pay a decent base and also tie some amount of compensation to performance in any meaningful way. It's a systemic problem. I blame Morganization, you can blame who you want, I'm not going to argue. When this incentive structure is addressed, then I think America will dramatically change for the better. In fact, I'm making it my goal in life to bring exactly that type of paygrade+bonus to the public for jobs outside of finance. How, I don't know, but I think there's a way given computers are so handy nowadays.

Get busy living
 

@UFO: Great views. This is certainly true and runs to the core as to why certain jobs attract more people even from other fields. For instance, I've seen people from nuclear engineering and other similar fields attracted to Finance because in Finance, people are actually paid based on "production" and contribution rather than simply being on retainer. There is risk, but there are great rewards without having to wait until you're gray to enjoy the benefits of the corresponding hard work.

 

I used to work 60 hour weeks in the corporate world. One year I got a whopping $600 bonus. career high in fact at that point (pre bschool). I used to get so frustrated. I would LOVE to get paid my fair comp in the form of a meaningful bonus. Sadly your analogy rings true for just about every job not on wall street.

Even in tech or consulting, the performance-based portion of the bonus is peanuts

 

Long time lurker here, but this post really resonates with my perspective of peers and old friends. Regarding the population subset that you explained, there's always stupid people saying stupid things. It's like children asking their parents why they enjoy watching the news rather than cartoons, they're just missing a level of understanding in their head.

 

Long time lurker here, but this post really resonates with my perspective of peers and old friends. Regarding the population subset that you explained, there's always stupid people saying stupid things. It's like children asking their parents why they enjoy watching the news rather than cartoons, they're just missing a level of understanding in their head.

 

Call me socialist (and throw monkey shit at me if you want) but a LOT of success on Wall Street and elsewhere is attributable to being part of the lucky sperm club. I take no great pleasure saying this. I'm reasonably successful by any normal person's definition but let's be honest - being born in an upper middle class background helped with that. This Ayn Rand / free market / Ron Paul version of capitalism is just not the real world. Very very few people truly start from the bottom and make it to the top.

 

I don't disagree with you.

I like to say that yes, the world is a better place for people who are born rich and the world is a better place for those that are born pretty. Unfortunately, I was born neither so I have to work harder to make my world a better place.

Is that to say that the rich and pretty don't work hard? Some do, some don't. Or is it to say that those that have success don't deserve it? Not at all. My peers on Wall Street may have come from more privilege but they still worked hard to get to where they were. The only difference is that doors steps they came upon they were often invited to, as opposed to the ones I came to I often times had to snake open with a credit card.

After a few years in the industry, their parents made their down payment and they bought a $2m apartment, which I couldn't do. But you know... life's a bitch. Without trying to sound too dogmatic, much like poker, its not about the cards you're dealt, its how you play them.

In the grand scheme of things, my Wall Street peers didn't have any more of a say in being born into privilege as I did in being born into disadvantage. At the end of the day, life is a bitch and you either learn to deal with it and take what you want regardless of the circumstances you're dealt or you become another statistic that could have done if not for [family baggage / the financial crisis / dyslexia / poor self control / etc].

While I believe the world is a better place if you're born rich and if you're born pretty, its also a better place for winners. And while you can't control your genetic destiny, you can control that last "advantage".

 

"Or is it to say that those that have success don't deserve it? "

-- I think this is where we disagree. I don't believe people (including you and me) 'deserve' as much of their success as they think they do. Again, this is a completely subjective evaluation so neither of us is wrong / right but I find it hard to take the results of a poker game with a stacked deck too seriously.

 

Yes, but isn't everyone born in america in the lucky sperm club. Aren't all pro athletes in the lucky sperm club. Aren't all great singers in lucky sperm club. I would love to have been born with a million dollar voice, I would love to have been born 6'4" with genes to run a 4.3 40 yard dash. Question is, so what? Isn't that part of why we have escalating tax brackets? Is paying 50% of your salary not enough while 50% pays nothing? The world/universe is not fair. Can a father not leave a business, wealth, or a job to his son? That's just not allowed?

 

"Yes, but isn't everyone born in america in the lucky sperm club."

-- I wasn't born in the US. I was born in a third world country where most rich people got that way by crony capitalism. Perhaps this explains our different viewpoints.

 
MoneyTalksMonkeysWalk:

Yes, but isn't everyone born in america in the lucky sperm club. Aren't all pro athletes in the lucky sperm club. Aren't all great singers in lucky sperm club. I would love to have been born with a million dollar voice, I would love to have been born 6'4" with genes to run a 4.3 40 yard dash. Question is, so what? Isn't that part of why we have escalating tax brackets? Is paying 50% of your salary not enough while 50% pays nothing? The world/universe is not fair. Can a father not leave a business, wealth, or a job to his son? That's just not allowed?

Now don't take this me as coming off as a socialist.

I wouldn't go as far as saying every person born in America is in the lucky sperm club, Do you consider people born in Southside Chicago lucky? We always say we have it better than those people born in third world countries which is true, however there is room for improvements.

The reality is if you're born poor you are more likely to die poor. There are tons of study that support this claim, that the social mobility is a lot harder than we think. Now I am not going say its impossible to go from rigs to riches, but the likely hood is very small.

Here is a recent article from The Economist.

http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21595396-new-study-shows-just-how-slow-it-change-social-class-have-and-have-not

 
valleybandar:

Call me socialist (and throw monkey shit at me if you want) but a LOT of success on Wall Street and elsewhere is attributable to being part of the lucky sperm club. I take no great pleasure saying this. I'm reasonably successful by any normal person's definition but let's be honest - being born in an upper middle class background helped with that. This Ayn Rand / free market / Ron Paul version of capitalism is just not the real world. Very very few people truly start from the bottom and make it to the top.

Of course that's true. The observation that children of affluent, talented, connected, influential, educated or hard working parents receive biological and environmental advantages is a prosaic one, indeed.

I've always been confounded that we should so affable and understanding of parents whose talents or education offer their children enormous advantages, while at once being repulsed by the idea that parents might use their hard-earned wealth to confer benefits to their progeny. Certainly, it's no coincidence that Peyton and Eli Manning should have become such prodigious quarterbacks (indeed, children of NFL players are statistically ~100x more likely to play in the NFL than their peers), nor should it be surprising that the world's most prestigious music conservatories are chock full of the children of professional violinists and flautists.

Parents - thankfully - are generally endowed with an overwhelming care for the outcomes of their children. At every bend of life's road, they endeavor to subsidize the development of their young ones. The cellist nurses his daughter's musical ability, the professor edifies the mind of his son, the doctor tutors his child in science, the college administrator introduces her son to the dean, the politician spearheads his daughters' journalism career by exposing her to TV anchors, the entrepreneur evokes ambition in his child, the affluent spares no expense in providing an education to his son - why is it that some of these narratives arouse a warm smile while others a scornful raised brow?

For all of our focus on egalitarianism, we make two quite treacherous assumptions: 1) that there is some fixed pool of success to be obtained in the world, such that the accomplishment of one child necessitates the failure of another and 2) that our society would be improved by policy that retrospectively redistributes resources to compensate for biological or environmental disadvantage. Both, of course, are misguided.

It's a trivial observation that, for example, Charles Darwin's contribution to the cumulative base of biological knowledge and the reverence that he has subsequently received did not come at the expense of other academic failures. Nor should it be diminished because he was born of a wealthy doctor and financier. Indeed, it's clear that Darwin's prosperous mind was attendant to many of the medical and scientific innovations of his successors. That is, Darwin's success doubtlessly increased the achievement of his academic scions; and, in that sense, he supplied to, rather than siphoned from, the pool of potential accomplishment.

Should it be any more trivial to observe that Bill Gates' incomprehensible success yielded a vastly greater quantity of prosperity than he himself consumed? Beyond the hundreds of billions in salaries paid to Microsoft employees, the magnitude of advances that were prompted by modern Silicon Valley icons who were raised on Windows computers is inestimable.

If such observations are so simple, why should we be brought to believe that similar, but less marvelous successes of less-notable academics or less-publicized entrepreneurs were deleterious to the prosperity of others?

We should never turn a blind eye to the suffering or hardship of those less fortunate, but history has demonstrated so clearly that economic freedom is the key ingredient to the most rewarding declines in poverty. The "developed world" today achieved that status not by coercively redistributing the triumphs of their fruitful entrepreneurs and artists, but rather by providing platforms upon which an entire civilization participates in the work of each citizen and each individual is granted the opportunity to exceed the prosperity of their parents. And, more fortunate still, with the evolution of a global economy has come a worldwide enfranchisement of the previously destitute in what is unquestionably the most precipitous decline in poverty in the history of human civilization.

In such a society, there will - of course - be enormous differences in affluence, talent, influence, education and ambition among different people, but the plight of the common man on the average income will be far greater than could be contemplated in a more restrictive economy.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

How can you say that? It's never been tried. We've never really had a truly free market. The federal government has been becoming more and more oppressive every year since the Civil War. And the whole luck thing...you can continue to believe it if it makes you feel better, but it's not true. Highschool isn't that hard. If you actually really cared you could get into a target school...and let's be honest, if you worked hard enough there, you could really do whatever you want with your life. A large majority of the people on the Forbes 400 are self-made. Started from nothing. That's not luck. Hard work always pays off. But not tomorrow, maybe not next month, maybe even not in a year. But in the long run, it does.

"When you stop striving for perfection, you might as well be dead."
 

Nice pat on the back with #3 but I am unsure the majority of people on this blog work in the industry. Besides the point though, great contribution. I also have many friends with the "cheated" mentality, unsurprisingly due to a lack of understanding.

Rarely will any of my posts have enough forethought/structure to be taken seriously.
 

I am a senior at a sub-par private school and this post represents about 95% of the kids in my classes and about 98% of the people I graduated high school with.

twitter: @StoicTrader1 instagram: @StoicTrader1
 

The reason that this resonates so deeply with me is not because I look down upon the people that you label as "average", but because I see so much of that in myself. I have always believed that I'm somehow different and that I will be successful, despite lacking the necessary grit to actually yield great results in any endeavor. In fact, I have angrily blamed others for some of my failures over the past several years, and reading that second to last paragraph put this "blame game" to rest. I have finally taken personal responsibility for my failures. It sounds sad, but its true. Thank you, so god damn much. I am finally moving on from my entitled, lazy, average idiocy.

 

@qbison to provide some clarity as to why i think they're unambitious, its not because they are firefighters or teachers. Its because they always take the easy way out. I have the upmost respect to anyone who works a job they hate to support their family, whether its a banker or the janitor at the mcdonalds across the street. These guys however don't have that problem. They prefer to sit at home and smoke all day and let their parents give them money. Its not like they're rich either, they're maybe upper middle class if anything. They sit around all week with their biggest problems in life being where they're going on saturday to drink. Nothing wrong with that, but telling me you shouldn't be taking CFA prep courses and should be thinking more like them because "I'm not living properly" is the stupidest thing I've heard any human being say.

While there is no shame in those who start at 30k and work their ass off to retire at 70k, those people should not be trying to handicap the ones who start at 100K+ trying to make $1M+. To use a sports analogy, you need both A players and B players for a team to do well. But when the B players start to throw off the A players who score all the goals because all they do is grind it out in the corners, thats when things go wrong. And thats the problem in the situation, they are happy to see me run the race along side them but God forbid I get a step ahead of them.

 

I hate to interrupt this Ayn Rand pep rally going on here, built on resurrecting old posts from the coffers, but the sheer downplaying of chance and circumstance in this thread is stunning. In social psychology circles this is what's known as fundamental attribution error. I agree you should play the hand you're dealt as best you can, but that can only take you so far if you're dealt 7-2-offsuit. I think people succeed when preparation and fortunate situation happen to meet. Of course there are plenty of people who had one without the other, but just because one is somewhat in your control does not make it any more necessary for any type of success.

 

I don't disagree.

Chance and luck are just part of the equation. Personally, I've been the beneficiary of luck and I've also been the victim of it.

Fundamental to not falling too much in love with yourself is the acknowledgment that atleast 50% of what you achieve is being in the right place at the right time. But by the same token, I believe that there are people out there that no matter what circumstances they are dealt, they will always prevail because that's just the type of people they are.

You look at someone like Bloomberg or Blankfein or basically anyone who comes from a modest background and goes on to achieve extraordinary success (not just in the finance world) and my view is that there are some people (very few) that are so far above the mean that the margin of error called fortune/misfortune simply does not apply to them.

That is to say that when they are dealt the blow of bad luck the impact is minimized and when they are dealt a good hand, they have the awareness to recognize it as such and the tenacity to capitalize off of it disproportionately. If you were looking at it like a probability curve you'd see the shit end of the tail with a pay off of something like –0.1x and the payoff on the tail end of the good side at 15x. Going back to the poker analogy, thats when you fold on a 7-2 unsuited, and push your luck when you don't have much but are on the cusp of having a monster hand. Yes, sometimes you have a diesel hand and get caught on the wrong side of the river and sometimes on the right side of it. That's where luck, and to a lesser degree instincts come into play. But the key point is that there are some people who do not succumb to bad luck like the rest of us and rise to the occasion when they are the beneficiaries of chance.

You see this with these types of people who seemingly look like everything they touch turns to gold and they can do no wrong. But when you examine their track record more closely, you see that it is marked with failures just like anyone else. But they (a) don't get bogged down and dwell on their inadequacies and (b) they somehow figure out a way to turn a negative into a positive.

If you've ever competed athletically you know that there is a certain band of chance that has nothing to do with ability. Refs blowing calls is a great example. Lets say the margin of error is +/– 8 landed punches per round in a boxing match. If you're someone like Floyd Mayweather that is 2-3 standard deviations above the mean and is handily landing 30-40 blows more than his opponent in each round, that margin of error is irrelevant. If you're a more moderate all-star, while you may beat 80% of your opponents more handily, 20% of the time it comes down to 8 or so landed punches and so your successes and failures are subject to the whims of chance.

Am I saying that people of this caliber are common? Absolutely not. But that's not to say that you shouldn't strive to be performing at a level above the atmosphere of luck.

I wouldn't underwrite being lucky as a deciding factor in my life goals, I don't expect that my life goals will be inhibited by being unlucky.

 

Ok fair enough. But I will add that just as there might be people on one tail who have "positive convexity" when it comes to limiting downside from their afflictions and maximizing upside from their windfalls (just like poker), there are also those on the other hand who have the opposite situation. I guess my point is that like anything else in life it's not always so black and white. I don't disagree that one should always uphold the attitude of personal responsibility but sometimes that just doesn't get actualized due to external factors.

 

Good read. What it really boils down to for me is ambition, I simply don't enjoy being around people who lack that drive. Regardless of what the person chooses to focus on, along as they are ambitious in what they want to achieve, and want to be their best at what they do, I will respect and admire that individual.

The error of confirmation: we confirm our knowledge and scorn our ignorance.
 

Maybe I'm just an outlier, but I enjoy hanging out with people whose ambitions aren't held to the same standards as my own all the time.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.
 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But let me tell you something, in this world there's always gonna be the winners and losers and the complainers. The difference between the losers and the complainers is that theres a portion of the loser subset that realize that they failed and need to work harder and smarter to become a winner. However, the other subset are the people that fail and bitch and whine and cry. But that's life. Unfortunately, in America, there are a decent amount of people who are too damn spoiled. Sometimes you have to look back at what you have achieved and be grateful about that. If you have failed, don't complain. Try again. and keep trying. At the end of the end, everyone including you know you tried and you gave a damn. However, unlike the complainers...they just bitch and complain. They want to be entitled. That is why we have doctors, lawyers, professors, engineers, financial specialists (this includes the financial sector), business owners, etc. After a certain portion of your life, you will realize your talent is only capable of taking you to a certain level/threshold and the rest you will have to rely on working hard and working smart. It's like Darwin's principle, survival of the fittest. This is life. Life is a jungle. If you are willing to work hard and put some brain power into it (not just grunt work), and if you fail, there are people out that there that will notice it and will try to help you. But at the end of the day, it comes down to you to make the move. You have to make the initiation. And always be humble that way you open more doors. good post nonetheless. if you have a chance, read Christopher Gardner's book Pursuit of Happyness (book>>>>>movie).

 

I think one solution is to actually fail and realize why you fail. I'll be honest, not too long ago I hit rock bottom, or at least I felt like I hit rock bottom. I had the same disease as you mentioned: Arrogance, self entitlement, a little bit lazy, anger, frustration, the whole loser attitude. Fast forward a year, I put 110% strength into my goals and I worked extremely hard and I finally tasted success. That feeling of succeeding despite your failures is the best gift I ever got in mylife. It told me I can actually do it. But with that reward came a valuable lesson. You have to work hard and be humble and be grateful. And I will carry that on for the rest of my life. Life is what you make of it but sometimes, you just have to be patient

 

The last paragraph, when you talk about the average person really got to me. One of my biggest fears is ending up mediocre and having nothing to really show for my existence on this planet. Granted I am more ambitious than the majority of the population....but I just cant think of many things worse than not living up to potential or waking up and realizing you are actually average.

 
BusinessSense:

The last paragraph, when you talk about the average person really got to me. One of my biggest fears is ending up mediocre and having nothing to really show for my existence on this planet. Granted I am more ambitious than the majority of the population....but I just cant think of many things worse than not living up to potential or waking up and realizing you are actually average.

That really depends on what you mean by average. Most people have their children to show for their existence on this planet. Pretty amazing thing if you think about it. Get out of the bubble, you can be above average by just not being an asshole and helping a person or two in your life, you don't have to make $500k+ to have a meaningful life. Your post just made me feel a lot better. Among other things, I consider myself a funny guy in real life (not wso), and that is something I love and have pride in, and to be egotistical...makes me fucking awesome. Money, or even being a F500 CEO can't give you that shit. Solely chasing money or prestige is a losing game my friend, because when you get there, ya think, this is it? This is what I stressed over for x amount of years? Then you think, fuck, now what I want is x years back!. Girls, family, health, fun experiences...are usually what people want...people often think LOTS of money is the only way to get there...not true.

I spoke w an owner of a large private regional company two weekends ago, at his sick mansion on a cliff overlooking the ocean (~20 million dollar house). He lives a good life and seems content. But I like my life better - living in a small apartment a block from the surfing beach (crucial for me), with my friends, my hustle, and myself. If I die here in this same spot 60 years from now with an awesome wife and some kids (maybe), I did pretty well and lived a good life. Every moment you spend on those fears listed in the quote - wasting time - before you know it it turns to years, and my friend...you only have so many, so stop that BS thinking. It truly is flawed.

 
MoneyTalksMonkeysWalk:

T I consider myself a funny guy in real life (not wso),

Don't worry, I think you're a funny guy, even on WSO

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.
 

First off I really enjoyed your post but let me clarify. I never specifically mentioned what I considered to be average or exactly what I was trying to achieve to avoid being average in my own eyes. I actually agree with pretty much everything you said.

The older I get the more I enjoy life's experiences and the value of friends and family. I think my point that I was trying to get at is that, I don't want to feel like I wasted my life in relation to anything. I want to make a difference for someone or something. I will admit that money seems like a good way to make an impact but I also agree it's not the only way.

My perspective is that I feel being successful financially allows me to avoid the mediocrity I fear so much. Granted I am still pretty young and my perspective is sure to change many times over the years.

 
MoneyTalksMonkeysWalk:
BusinessSense:

The last paragraph, when you talk about the average person really got to me. One of my biggest fears is ending up mediocre and having nothing to really show for my existence on this planet. Granted I am more ambitious than the majority of the population....but I just cant think of many things worse than not living up to potential or waking up and realizing you are actually average.

That really depends on what you mean by average. Most people have their children to show for their existence on this planet. Pretty amazing thing if you think about it. Get out of the bubble, you can be above average by just not being an asshole and helping a person or two in your life, you don't have to make $500k+ to have a meaningful life. Your post just made me feel a lot better. Among other things, I consider myself a funny guy in real life (not wso), and that is something I love and have pride in, and to be egotistical...makes me fucking awesome. Money, or even being a F500 CEO can't give you that shit. Solely chasing money or prestige is a losing game my friend, because when you get there, ya think, this is it? This is what I stressed over for x amount of years? Then you think, fuck, now what I want is x years back!. Girls, family, health, fun experiences...are usually what people want...people often think LOTS of money is the only way to get there...not true.

I spoke w an owner of a large private regional company two weekends ago, at his sick mansion on a cliff overlooking the ocean (~20 million dollar house). He lives a good life and seems content. But I like my life better - living in a small apartment a block from the surfing beach (crucial for me), with my friends, my hustle, and myself. If I die here in this same spot 60 years from now with an awesome wife and some kids (maybe), I did pretty well and lived a good life. Every moment you spend on those fears listed in the quote - wasting time - before you know it it turns to years, and my friend...you only have so many, so stop that BS thinking. It truly is flawed.

This and a few other posts reminded me of Eddie's story about his friend who I think really sums up the epitome of being happy with his life and may offer a different perspective than some of the circlejerk that goes on here at times. Everybody's different. People have different goals and motivations in life. Personally, I enjoy being friends with a lot of people outside of finance but that doesn't mean I don't admire the hunger that a lot of people in the industry have. The question of whether I want it badly enough or not is something I ask myself quite frequently... //www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/back-door-mark-the-oracle-of-pb

 

This is very true for some people. I have never really found a good way to voice such an opinion in a social setting though, given the sensitive nature.

 

I agree with you that most people are lazy and that working hard is fulfilling. Although I find two things wrong with this post. 1. You allude to being a hard worker and focused yet you had time to write this huge rant. It seems like if you were such a hard worker you wouldn't have time for such a trivial exercise (let alone racking up over 1000 points on this site). 2. You keep saying that you don't think you are better than other people and that you aren't special. However the subtext of this rant is that you are in fact special and better than everyone else.

 

I agree with your anti-entitlement sentiment, but saying things like everyone came from the same place? The US is the best country in the world? IBDers are the most accomplished, smart people out there? Those opinions are just ignorant and sound like propaganda.

 

Sir, your post made my day. This is usually a difficult topic to discuss with friends and family when no one is in the Finance Industry. Most would consider you "not down to earth" or dreaming to far away from your reality.

Im currently having to decide "how bad I want it" and quit my current job which guarantees me a comfortable but mediocre life or spending my very little life savings and studying a Masters in Finance which is what my guts tell me I should do with my life since i love everything from the math to the pressure of this type of job.

Your post really helped me deeply question myself what I wanna do with my life and how bad do I want it.

Again thanks for sharing your opinion

 

I love the direction of this post, and I agree with a lot of it. People really do underestimate the importance of hard work. For example, at the target school I attended, I'd meet so many people who aspired to being an entrepreneur, yet when I ask them what they've started, they say they're waiting until they have (insert excuse here, time, money, skills, w/e). It's a giant pile of crock. Read the story of any successful entrepreneur, and you'll see half the story is busting your ass and failing before you succeed, not waiting for a magical moment when you have some world-saving idea. Not that they're bad people. I just feel sorry for them because I know they'll never get that freedom they want.

At the same time, your statement about "ordinary people" doesn't ring true to me. You describe yourself as ordinary, yet you describe ordinary people as entitled and lazy, certainly things that you wouldn't describe yourself as. Wouldn't that, by default, make you not "ordinary?" Not here to criticize, I'm just trying to clarify your argument. I think what you're trying to say is that there's a subset of "ordinary people" that feel entitled to more despite their laziness, not ordinary people as a whole.

Most people got more pressing priorities than feeling jealous about the rich and successful. Sure, they might feel it from time to time, but they got their own problems to deal with (family, money, regular shit). I've got plenty of "ordinary people" as friends, and none of them get pissed at me for being ambitious. Those entitled types you're referring to, those who immerse themselves in jealousy, exist in far fewer numbers than you might think. They might be more obvious now that you're going places, but that just means you need different friends, not that the average person is shitty.

In any case, if you really think you're average, then find other average people who appreciate hard workers like you do. Most average people I know appreciate people who've worked hard for what they got, and it sounds like you fit that mold. To be honest, I don't think your appreciation of hard work is all that mind-blowing or unique. You just need to find people who aren't going to tear you down for it.

 

Oh, just-world fallacy. This is fun.

At this point, I'm pretty sure there is no objectively fair world. If you think you can objectively measure how hard someone works and what he deserves in return, you can join a long list of ideologues who had the same idea and the same lack of data to back it up.

I like markets. It's surprising how quickly people self-correct their biases once you put their beliefs in a market context. You're 99% sure your prediction is correct? Will you bet me $1000 against my $11? No? Glad we could clear this up. What I don't believe is that if I make 300k, I objectively deserve 300k. I took a position in a market which is very likely to have been favorable to me, since many people accept physically demanding, sometimes harmful jobs for tiny fractions of that money, and I didn't. Did I work harder than some guy carrying bricks? Who knows.

If offered the same money I make now (which isn't fuck-you-money by any standards, but I'm doing okay) to work a standard entry-level position, I'd probably decline. I hate repetitive work, physical labor isn't much fun if you have scoliosis and a busted knee, I'm not a "team player" if the word is used as a euphemism for spineless sycophant*, and having no failures at all makes me feel like a coward who avoids tough challenges. Sure, my job isn't perfect, either. I work about twice as long as an average employee and have to get what feels like an order of magnitude more done. Every part of the job requires extensive amounts of optimizing my actions, and there's still no guarantee that all tasks are solvable by me, or even in principle. Variance is huge, everybody needs to be reminded at all times to do the simplest of tasks, and there's no real certainty of getting paid. But it's fine. It challenges me. It forces me to think about what I do, change my habits, and grow both in my profession and as a person. Additionally, completing a project feels better than most drugs I've tried. If forced to decide between the memory of my first acquisition or first sex, I'd easily take the former. I'd never get this out of a "normal" job.

But I'd never draw policy advice from my personal experiences. As long as you don't buy into conversation-killers like "You deserve what you earn" (note: gross income) on the Randian end or "Everyone deserves X" on the socialist one, politics can be really fun and open for almost anything. You can hypothesize about the effects, payoffs and costs of nearly anything and see what the stats say, since someone probably tried it somewhere already. It's the simplification, adherence to some sort of moral imperative that closes it down and turns one side into greedy grifters and the others into entitled deadbeats. I find these kind of arguments insanely naïve and uninteresting.

As for hard work: Necessary, not sufficient. Get back to it.

*a little over the top. If I sound overly bitter, I'm not. Just don't like the combination of office politics and management lingo.

 
Gustav:
What I don't believe is that if I make 300k, I objectively deserve 300k. I took a position in a market which is very likely to have been favorable to me, since many people accept physically demanding, sometimes harmful jobs for tiny fractions of that money, and I didn't. Did I work harder than some guy carrying bricks? Who knows.

You're committing just as flagrant an attribution error as the one criticizing.

What could possibly be the meaning of "objectively deserve" in this context? By whose "objective" standard are you measuring "deservedness"?

The market doesn't allocate income based on "deservedness". Your enormous paragraph extolling your individualism and inability to succeed as a "standard entry-level worker" is moot. If Jamie Dimon began working as a construction worker, he wouldn't be paid as he is as the CEO of JP Morgan; in fact, he would likely be useless as a construction worker and quickly fired. Dimon isn't paid what he "deserves" based on some "objective" determination of his "skills", he is paid according to a market-based valuation of his work. It is the conclusion of the compensation committee of JP Morgan, on behalf of the shareholders, that his work contributes to the company's success in excess of his income. It would almost certainly be the view of a foreman that his work would not contribute to the success of the project in excess of his construction worker salary. This is not a profound observation.

"Deserve" is a meaningless word in this context. But it's equally erroneous to contend there is no objective reason why an individual is offered their income: one party exchanges his or her resources for the labor of another. I see no compelling logic to believe that some abstract third-party concept of "deservedness" should be more legitimate a standard than the voluntary arrangement between two parties who both have direct incentives to economize.

There are millions of people in "standard entry-level" jobs: most of them progressively earn more income as they get older, some more than others. It's impossible to make precise statements about "why" some progress and others do not, but it's certainly a reasonable conjecture to think that motivation, morale, ambition, hard work, concentration, charisma, etc. have at least some role in the equation.

Of course happenstance is involved, and you may have some differing idea of how much it contributes than does Marcus, but it's just silly to harangue him about "deservedness". This "deservedness" concept is useless. At least Marcus opines on concepts that have pragmatic value, in that they 1) can be measured and 2) have a positive correlation with career success.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 
NorthSider:

What could possibly be the meaning of "objectively deserve" in this context? By whose "objective" standard are you measuring "deservedness"?

I'm arguing that there is no such thing. Market decisions don't carry inherent moral value, so introducing terms like entitlement, laziness and fairness to a discussion about Wall Street salaries doesn't make sense to me.

The paragraph on my own life probably comes across as a bit douchy, but I get irked by the "I earn much money because I work so hard" meme. Lots of people work hard and make little, and low-salary jobs aren't necessarily cozy and conducive to a lazy lifestyle. Increasing your earning potential will likely require more work, but that's fairly obvious and the productivity boost you'll get from reading a post about it is unlikely to exceed your standard nootropic in power or duration. Which should be a lot cheaper in terms of opportunity cost.

I had the same problem with the post on Glengarry Glen Ross, which received a confusing amount of support. You start by appealing to an in-group audience with applause lights, mix in some motivational material and end with a political argument massively simplifying real-world events in a way that might be interpreted as self-serving.

This is all very level 1. Look at your cards, play your cards. Don't think about your opponent, don't think about what cards you represent through your play, don't think about what cards your opponent represents.

You could go much more in depth on any of these issues. What does allow us to work hard? What affects earning potential on Wall Street other than pure effort? (Meta: How can we improve our capacity of that?) What causes public opinion regarding Wall Street? What political pressure and counterpressure exists?

I don't consider greedy poor people to be much of a threat to me. Worst case scenario involves change of residence and palm trees. Government collusion, espionage, shotgun approaches to regulation, financial instability, creation of large-scale systemic risks, those seem a bit more worrying. Don't lend themselves to an inspirational post quite as well, though, I'll grant that.

 

Ugh. One of my biggest pet peeves has got to be "most people are X" or "most people can't do/realize that X".

C'mon, MOST people are actually decent, hard working folks. It is my view that as with most things, the minority gives the rest a bad name. Life is tough for everyone involved, and we all have to make do. If your thing is busting your balls to "make it", then more power to you. By simple virtue of competition, not everyone can make it as high as some, and that should not diminish "the average person".

Let's face it -- today's world is quite competitive, so it is my belief that today's average isn't all that mediocre. I'm of the opinion that so long as you are competent, are making money and happy with where you are, then you're doing well.

No one cares for the entitled, the incompetent or those unwilling to work. The workforce will weed them out naturally. They shouldn't be anyone's concern, so why let them bother you?

 

Then you come to things like record oil company profits, wall street bonuses etc... the average American has absolutely no understanding of the actual issues and complexity surround them yet has a barrel full of opinions they’re dying to express.

Your point about complexity nails it. People have so much difficulty thinking non-linearly.

 

Theres been a lot of good content on this thread, and while I agree with most of it, I do believe that laziness is something that is nearly impossible to quantify. One of the examples that stuck out to me was the reference to having the highest level of respect for teachers. Personally, I thing teaching is incredibly important and I would love to go back and be a high school math teacher at some point in my life. That being said, there are some teachers I had in high school that I truly loved what they did and wanted to make a difference, however there were many that went into this particular field because it was easy. The benefits are great, you get weekends and summers off, and nobody can argue that the stress of being a teacher is even remotely comparable to what is found on wall street.

I'm sure someone will come in and argue that I shouldn't judge these people because 'they are living the lifestyle they want', but from my experience the people that got into teaching because it was easy are the ones who complain the most about others. You would be hard pressed to find a teacher that believes bankers deserve the salary they get. As if this wasn't engraved in my brain growing up, now that I seem some of my peers (whom most anyone would deem as lazy) going off to work as teachers, I believe it now more so than ever. So many of these kids had dreams of making something of themselves, and now that they realize their laziness isn't going to get the anywhere, they sit around giving me shit about how trading 'isn't doing anything good for the world' on their little teacher pedestals. The world is full of hypocrisy, but to quote a certain twitter account, the boos always come from the cheap seats.

 

My childhood best friend was and is an idiot. I met him at age 4, so I had no idea, but he is very stupid - think 20th %-ile stupid. As we got older, I worked hard, got good grades, and enrolled in top schools. He drank a lot of beer, worked a lot of odd jobs, banged a lot of sluts, and just generally lived a party lifestyle at an epic scale. As we approach 30, I'm 6 months away from a top PhD and he has his first steady job as a truck driver. I'm pretty satisfied with my life, but I think he is too.

What's my point here? My friend's life goal was to work just enough to support his beer drinking, hard partying, slut banging lifestyle. And he succeeded wildly at that. I had different goals, and I think I am achieving those as well. We all have different priorities, so judging someone else based on my goals is not justified. We are all much happier when the jealousy AND the condescension is snuffed out. This thread does a good job of pointing out jealousy, but the comments are chock-full of condescension towards the Average Joe.

 

I know that this is an over simplification of the issue at hand, and to start it off, here are my two cents.

There will always be rich and poor people, there will always be ambitious and non ambitious lazy people, no legislation alone can change this, some part of it is innate, I would bet my life on it.

HOWEVER, there is a large segment of society that feels like the contract between the owners of the means of production and them, labor has been broken. Not because of the amount of money they pay said labor as wages.

No there is a larger deeper issue at hand, simply put the poor feel like no matter how hard they work, their lot in life is destined to mediocrity.

Pity not the one who wants to sit at home, lazy and complain about life, but the man who wants to make something of himself but cant for a variety of reasons, be it lack of money to go to school or get a promotion etc.

No the real anger of the Proletariat is a loss of BELIEF in that the system works, that the American dream is alive.

There is funny saying that "The American Dream is a dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it"

What I really think is needed cannot be measured in dollars, or food stamps and free housing.

To paint the poor as mostly lazy does a disservice to those who want to better their life but have the system stacked against them.

Higher wages wont solve the fundamental problem, the anger that most Americans have will not be placated by charity, or fundraisers.

They need to believe that through hard work they can get to be successful or at least provide a decent living.

Most urban youth give up, I went to a middle school where gangs and shootings were common and if you didn't have a group to have your back, you were toast. Yet my parents instilled in me the value of education and I applied myself because I believed that if I did study, I could have a better life. So I went to a private high school that I helped my parents pay for by working.

But I believed that with hard work, came a brighter future.

Americans don't believe that their efforts will be rewarded, whether the amount of opportunity has decreased or increased is irrelevant.

All they see is the guy at the top who makes 300k who just shipped half the department to another country, to boost profits. They wont see it as cheaper products that they later buy at Walmart.

Saddled with debt, their hope begins to diminish.

When a group of people feel like what they do, doesn't matter anymore to bring out their own success, then thats the stuff of what revolutions are made off.

But in the end, how do you fix this? I'm not really sure....

 

"The memories of a man in his old age Are the deeds of a man in his prime. You shuffle in gloom of the sickroom And talk to yourself as you die.

Life is a short, warm moment And death is a long cold rest. You get your chance to try in the twinkling of an eye: Eighty years, with luck, or even less." -Roger Waters

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Generally good post, but I felt you were closely circling some core issues that you didn't actually get to. Maybe because that would've required a whole book, not a post.

The whole motivation thing gets very complicated. A friend of mine is a MAJOR slacker when it comes to work. But in his free time, he is a writer and has been trying to punch out a movie script. I was laughing at him, thinking "yeah right, you can't finish a single college assignment on time and you want to be a movie director or whatever".

Last week, I heard he has already somehow clawed his way to a major mover and shaker within the business. He wasn't lying either, I think he already landed himself some small time work.

That shut me up.

Sorry for the segue.

 

This was said perfectly. Focal point here is people who speak very loud and do very little.

I've honestly never expressed that a bonus is really just a salary, and that probably started as an incentive for people to turnover less since the working conditions are less than optimal in IBD (you will at least stay for your bonus, and it gets harder to leave as you "accrue" more comp).

Point well made, and I agree its easy to point fingers at someone who makes more money than you to and say the system is flawed. Its not perfect, but I work really damn hard for what I make, and I give up a lot for it too.

Bananas Given

 
Marcus_Halberstram:

Anyone with average intelligence and above average ambition can do it.

Agreed. It is sad to see how unambitious some people are. I happen to know some people who almost make you feel guilty for wanting to improve your station in life.

The biggest downer for me is when they try to pull others who are taking risks, working hard, trying something new - and possibly even making some mistakes along the way. To me, all that is par for the course.

 

In my own words, I would say the issue is not with lazy / non ambitious people, but with entitled people who are both lazy and not ambitious. I would tend to agree, but I'm not so sure it's that simple. I know lots of people that made poor choices and then ask why are they unlucky and why are all of these successful people lucky. It frustrates me that they think this way. To this end I completely agree. However, to address the entitlement of the average person may not be completely without reason. Their view may be that the difference in your and their success is for many reasons and not solely on your work ethic and mental ability. This leads to another question(s), is ones success entirely their own doing? How much is due to their own efforts, outside forces, luck? It boils down to a nurture vs nature of sucess argument.

 

I know I'm a little late on commenting, but kudos for writing a great article. I believe everyone can relate to this naive feeling of being unique and having a sense of self-entitlement, but the truth of the matter is that great things don't just fall in your lap from the heavens. You have to put in the work yourself.

 

This is beautiful. But the thing is, even though this is the absolute TRUTH, most people will never acknowledge it and that's why they'll never progress. The politicians just feed into their insecurities and give them reasons on why they're struggling now. Being in America, I believe that I am in control of 95% of things that happen in my life. Anything good or bad that happens to me is usually a direct result of whatever choice I make.

 

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At et quas et sed. Facilis ut provident possimus sed sed cupiditate. Aliquid voluptates exercitationem ipsam animi.

Absolute truths don't exist... celebrated opinions do.
 

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