Holocene / Woodline / Candle
How do these 3 compare? Obviously from similar lineage and run similarly (pseudo-pod). So I am most curious about culture. Candle is known to be brutal and turnover super high - sunday policy + brutal hours. What about these other two? Heard from second hand source that Woodline can be brutal as well with analyst coming in at ~4:30-5 am PST. Thanks
what's the sunday policy you talk about?
Quote from a prior post:
Melvin (out of scope for this convo, but) works a lot too.
literally what it sounds like - they work full sundays, similar to melvin back in the day.
holocene is long hours as well.
4am-5am starts are common for west coast funds, wouldn't say that's woodline specific...it's just market hours.
Can you define long ? Like 50-70 or 80-90 ? All three of these funds are top tier so any color on that and culture would be appreciate.
thx. out of curiosity, is everyone at candlestick (and melvin pre-closure) in the office on sun? or WFH?
it's a good thing they came in on sundays huh. that extra effort helped their investors a lot
Bump for visibility
Isn’t Holocene known for good culture?
nothing to add other than long hours =/= bad culture. previous poster just said holocene was long hours
Culture != intensity. D1 is rumored to have good culture too but Sundheim works them hard too.
Then you have Coatue, the double threat, sht culture and overworked.
Work so fcking hard to do like shit in public mkts and then get paid shit. Isn’t one of the best perks about being in HF > PE is how everything is so meritocratic? So you only need to work as much as it takes to flesh out your pitch and get your PM to say ok
Your argument breaks down when they have a 3000 line model for every single name. Then it becomes a choice of whether you believe in that's how you should invest in the public market - I certainly don't, but my net worth is nowhere close to Gabe's or Jack's.
A better question is why do they invest this way? What kind of edge does having such granular models provide?
5am pst = 8am est. how is that brutal hah
Any color on the other funds (west coast timing isn’t really a factor in culture imo) ? Culture wise ? Since you're a PM you've probably heard about /interacted with guys at these shops.
It's brutal psychologically. I go to bed at 10pm, so I do get my 8 hours in, but waking up when it's pitch black outside makes me feel more tired.
I don't care for getting off work at 3pm or 5pm. I rather work 8-8 than 5-5.
This is fair, yah its up at 4am its pitch dark at the office by 5am. But you can hit the beach by 2-3pm and then finish up your work in the evening. Normal folk get destroyed by traffic at 5pm so you want out quick.
Unfortunately not sure on those funds culture, but the typical west coast culture is laid back but work very long hours and grinding as mentioned.
In general, Southern Cali folks are more passive aggressive and smile and eff you types vs east coast and that does not stop in finance.
Have interviewed with one - the style they pitch themselves as is like... a slightly longer duration pod, as the OP suggested (pseudo-pod). What that means essentially is taking more of a 6-12 month view on names rather than trading quarters, but obviously managing risk around earnings prints and such. I think the hours and culture are fairly similar to pods with slightly less turnover / looser leash on risk because the view is longer. You have to remember these are technically "SM" structures, so there aren't as many guys running around with > $1bn sleeves deploying capital and being scrutinized on weekly returns. I'd also say Candle vs. Holocene are fairly different, Candle is a consumer-driven focused SM and Holocene has 5x the AUM, so has sector heads and such like Maverick. So the structure is inherently different.
Holocene probably looks and acts far more like a "pod" than Candlestick, and Holocene does full sectors just with a touch more duration. Would liken Holocene's structure to again, that of Maverick but an investing style more akin to a pod if a pod could take 2-4 quarter bets. Candlestick has the structure of a Lone Pine / Viking, with the PM (Jack Woodruff) and some senior level investors (CIO and such) making final investment decisions and being a sector specialist primarily in consumer and very analyst heavy (Melvin was like this).
Don't know as much on Woodline but have friends in L/S on the West Coast and getting in around 5a PST is pretty normal. Post above mentioned you get out around 2-3p PST... pretty on par with friends I have in the industry in similar seats. Not abnormal given markets open at 6:30a PST...
At what point would people start moving/interviewing for these funds in their career? Heading to P72 for their summer internship next year so looking at opportunities outside of MMs I could apply to if I join out of undergrad.
If you're worried about the hours, this industry isn't for you.
?
Not sure why this is getting sh*t. I think this is a fair point across the entire industry - those who succeed in finance largely have a passion for learning and knowledge and would be spending time working beyond the minimum hours required. I get that this is a pretty hardo way of putting it, but in essence I think those that find success especially in public mkts were not just run of the mill bare minimum effort type people. You go into HF and HFs specifically because a lot of it is built upon a foundation for meritocracy and working harder can (not will) directly and positively influence results. Burning your tires just to say you did won't result in better returns / higher comp but spending more time getting through more ideas and analyzing more securities is never a bad thing.
They will learn.
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