Advice on breaking in
So here's my situation:
I'm twenty-eight, have essentially no industry experience, and I've spent my time since undergrad pursuing academic philosophy. I'm from the US but I'm now based in London, where I've gotten an MPhil in Philosophy with Distinction and (for extraneous reasons) am about to grauate with a second masters in Spanish.
At this late point, I've decided that I don't want a career in academia and that I want to get into IB. I'm specifically interested in structuring, particulary rates + credit. I've been an auto-didact my whole life and I've taken to learning as much about finance as I can. I obviously have a lot to learn, but I'm confident about my ability to get it. As for motivation, I'm sure that it's what I want; I'm fine with the hours in my 30's; the younger associate who would my boss, etc. etc.
My only concern is about the best way to break in. Right now, I have an offer to do a PhD in philosophy at a "target" university in the UK (though I'm not sure if the term applies after undergrad), and my thinking is that my best avenue is to accept the offer; join the finance club at the university and network extensively; hustle for internships at MM and boutique firms in London over the 2-3 summers of the degree; and then try to land something at the end. Also, my research in philosophy is in formal logic, so I'm thinking the PhD might at least pique the interest of recruiters.
I'm interested to know if anyone would recommend pursuing any other plan besides the one I've laid out. I've thought about a finance degree or an mba instead of the PhD, but they don't seem feasible as I have neither a formal quantiative background nor work experience. I could try to get work experience instead of continuing to study, but would whatever work I could get be preferable to the Phd, internships, and networking/clubbing at the target? Also, let's say I'm able to land some internships, but they don't manifest a job. Is 31/32 too late to try to break in via the MBA route, with the internship experiences under my belt?
Based on the most helpful WSO content, here's a strategic approach to breaking into investment banking, especially given your unique background and current situation:
Leveraging Your PhD Offer: Accepting the PhD offer at a target university can be a strategic move, as it places you within a network that is often targeted by finance recruiters. Being part of the finance club and actively networking can significantly enhance your visibility to potential employers.
Internship Strategy: Your plan to secure internships at MM and boutique firms is sound. These experiences are crucial as they not only provide industry exposure but also demonstrate your commitment to transitioning into finance. Make sure to leverage any finance-related aspects of your philosophy research when applying.
Utilizing Formal Logic Skills: Highlighting your research in formal logic can indeed be appealing to recruiters, especially in areas like structuring, rates, and credit, where analytical skills are prized.
Alternative Pathways - MBA or Finance Degree: While pursuing an MBA or a specialized finance degree might seem daunting without a quantitative background, many programs offer foundational courses that could bring you up to speed. An MBA, in particular, could be a more direct route into finance and might provide broader networking opportunities.
Age Considerations: Regarding your concern about age, 31/32 is certainly not too late to break into investment banking, especially with an MBA. Many professionals enter the industry at this age, particularly those with diverse or non-traditional backgrounds.
Plan B - Work Experience: Should you decide against further study, gaining relevant work experience, even if not directly in IB, could still be valuable. Roles in related fields like financial analysis, consulting, or roles that involve rigorous quantitative and analytical work could also serve as stepping stones into IB.
Continual Learning and Certification: Consider augmenting your self-study in finance with formal certifications like the CFA or financial modeling courses, which can bolster your resume and provide practical skills.
Networking and Mentorship: Continuously expand your network by connecting with alumni, professors, and professionals in the industry. Consider finding a mentor through platforms like WSO to guide you through the transition into finance.
Your proactive approach and willingness to immerse yourself in the finance world, despite a non-traditional background, are commendable. With strategic planning and persistent effort, your transition into investment banking is achievable.
Sources: Is 31/32 too late for an MBA?, Latest age to break into IB, Is There Such Thing As Too Old Or Too Young For an MBA?, Is 35 too old for full time MBA and post-mba investment banking?
Get internship in IB. Convert and you have the full time role. Worry about getting that internship. Just double check your grade date, also there are specific PhD entry level programs for trading firms even HFs like Marshall Wace. Look into those too.
Hey, don't know much about structuring so I'll leave that aside for now but a few points:
1) I think the "target" status still definitely applies for a PhD as this isn't academia, "prestige" is a metric that does play an important part in CV screenings and the intricacies of Uni X actually having a better research department than Cambridge for this super specific field isn't really registered. So target good.
2) PhD + internships will place you in a way better position than random work experience or an MBA
3) I wouldn't worry about converting the internships. You look motivated so I imagine you'll have brushed up on plenty of knowledge by the time you hit the desk. Also, you'd be coming in with way more experience (admittedly not professional but still valuable), and I can imagine (not sure at all on this) that the PhD status would make you at least interesting to some ppl on the floor. Overall, you'd be starting that internship with a lot of stuff in your favour.
4) Other fields like law (pretty great in the UK), consulting or institutions could play well with your background. Also, like was said above, there're hedge funds that have PhD specific recruitment you could benefit from (and which realistically would put you in an incredible spot)
5) If you go for the PhD remember to take a systematic approach for recruiting. Summers are great, but there'll also be certain spring weeks open to you (in particular at HFs) and tons of PhD specific events for finance or other fields (ex: consulting firms have probably 100 phd coffee chat events every year at my uni)
P.S: Why MM/boutiques (particularly for structuring) ? Obviously the environment is super competitive but if you've got an Oxbridge phd on the way you're clearly a credible candidate for BBs/EBs and a bunch of other roles.
Thanks, this is very helpful. I suppose I assumed that I wouldn't be competitive against freshly-minted graduates from the same schools at BBs/EBs, but it sounds like I might have a shot. My idea has been to intern at MM's in the first one or two summers of the PhD and then try to roll that into something higher up towards the end. You're right that it's a mismatch between MM's and structuring. Ultimately I'd like to work on bond and credit products for corporations and governments in the Latin American market.
It's also interesting to hear about HFs and consulting. I've researched spring weeks at banks but they seem more firmly geared towards undergrads than the internships. Is there any reason that the buy-side has more of a pathway for PhD's than the sell? Also, if I were to snag an internship at a HF, would that add to an IB resume in the long run?
I'd be interested to get your opinion on off-cycle internships as well. Assuming that I make good progress on the PhD, I could potentially devote three months to one if the opportunity comes up. I wonder (i) if they're generally valuable (ii) if one in the US or on the Continent would add value when applying to positions in the UK.
To start with I'd say that yes, an HF internship would definitely add value to your CV for IB, the most likely problem is the bank wondering why you'd be interested in joining them if you were already at a reputable HF (which is where many of their traders will try to go).
Springs do seem more geared towards undergrads theoretically but I've seen masters students do them so why not, also once again, PhD specific stuff should exist. The reason HFs appreciate PhDs is that they're recruiting for brains and differentiated views, they've simply noticed that academics can exhibit these qualities very strongly and some of the best people in that world came from academia. Jobs like M&A place emphasis on ability to work long hours, good team player and more "business-oriented skills" which really don't require a PhD. Side note: I believe structuring is more technically demanding and so would look favourably at ppl with the academic pedigree showing they can handle this.
On off-cycles, 3 months seems like it might cut it a bit short (generally the targeted period is more like 4 to 6, but I assume there could be wiggle room, particularly if you network with the relevant ppl). They do add value, regardless of where they happen, though I think getting one on the continent can be a little hard cause 1)visas 2)ultra-competitive HEC masters students with already 10 prior experiences 3) some places like France really family network heavy.
What you're targeting long term seems really cool, I'd add that for that you can maybe look in the meantime for less conventional roles like at the rating agencies, they also have summer internships and can be less competitive to get in my understanding. I'd recommend checking out the Bristol Finance Tracker for a list of opportunities you can apply to.
Overall, once again I'll say it, it sounds like you've got a stronger profile than you think, and to be honest I feel like recruiting is way more about not fucking up what you can actually prepare for (which was the mistake I not only made but repeated). By that I mean that your CV will make it through screens, so make sure to actually prepare that first round interview that will come, if you show up truly ready for that you've already placed yourself in a great position. The market is tough these days so you'll still have to play the numbers game, remember to apply as early as you can for stuff.
If you've got the time now, I'd accept that PhD offer to slap the uni name on your profile, and maybe reach out to a few ppl with similar backgrounds (ex: a guy who did a history PhD at your uni and is now at a HF, ask them how they presented themselves in contrast to the STEM guys maybe, or in general about their experience transitioning from academia etc...) reason for this is that you said you wanted to network, but realistically if you do that at your uni's finance club it'll be October by the time you start, and ideally you'd have sent your applications earlier than that (ex: August/September, even earlier for certain hedge funds). Also if you want to work on LA credit, perhaps you can try writing some stuff about it in the meantime. I mean basic articles that you can get student journals to publish, these will show your interests, pad your CV and give you something interesting to talk about in interviews.
Hope all of this helps, obviously it comes from a place of limited experience but it's just some of what I've seen
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