I’m a second year Associate at EB. A2A so have done this shit for 5 years now. Have probably averaged over 100 / week throughout 2021 and its gotten especially bad recently. Going to bed now between 4-6am 6 days a week
Trying to hang on for the bonus due in March but my mental and physical health have deteriorated completely along with my performance and I still have 6 months left to go
I have a family who loves and supports me which is probably the only reason I haven’t killed myself by now. They all sat me down last night and begged me to quit
Dont know how to quit. There’s a deal I’m working on that will derail completely if I quit - they’ll beg me to stay on until its done. At that point I might as well just stay on to get the bonus
Please look after yourself.
Your own health and life always come first.
Just quit, fuck the deal. If they beg you to stay on, make them pay you your bonus today.
fuck bonus day. Make them pay immediately.
Can you ask for a light staffing week at some point in the future and just be honest with your staffer about this? This way you have more time to think and not make a hurried decision at a low point. I think it would be in their best interest considering the alternative is you quitting. If your staffer can't cut you some slack after 5 year A2A then there may be an issue with the firm in general.
Agreed.
For some perspective, Floyd 'Money' Mayweather says "My health is my wealth" and no one loves money more than that guy, but he still recognizes nothing is more important than your own health.
Has been my biggest takeaway from 2021 tbh.
Just tell them you need to work less hours or else you will quit and actually do it if they don't oblige. You have plenty of money saved up (I would hope), so you don't need to worry about paying the bills. Isn't that why we all got into the industry in the first place? So when we r in scenarios like this, we have the financial freedom to walk away and do whatever TF we want? USE IT.
Don't succumb to the golden handcuffs.
Take a step back and think about what you've said in the OP - you're contemplating suicide but afraid to let go because a deal you're working on will get de-railed without you? Don't care if I get MS for this because it sounds like you need a reality check, stat.
1) Juniors are a resource and you're easily replaceable - sure there will be a bit of turbulence for the firm / deal team during the transition, but until you have revenue tied to your name you are dispensable. Execution is a commodity and the show goes on with or without you - full stop. Groups / deals don't fall apart when the global head leaves, so what makes you think this holds true for a second year associate?
2) Firms will fire you without an afterthought if the economics justify it. It might sound cynical, but corporations are an economic engine and the only entity it reports to are its shareholders. The majority of the "relationships" that you have in the workplace are professional relationships at best (with the occasional outlier or two that you can genuinely call your friends) - this is particularly true for anyone above you in seniority. Would your director / MD visit you in the hospital if you fell sick from work?
All to say is loyalty to a artificial entity (your firm) is completely asinine and would encourage you to think twice before trading your well-being for a cause when it won't be reciprocated. I get the reluctance to leave money on the table regarding your bonus, but that's what "golden handcuffs" are. You'll always be leaving money on the table when you leave a job, whether its in the form of accrued bonuses, LTIP, etc.
If you're truly working the hours your working and your mental health has deteriorated to the point that you need an intervention, no amount of money is worth that. To be clear, this isn't coming from a jaded banker - I love my job and the BB I work for. At the same time, I try to keep a level head and realize that my job doesn't dictate how I live my life. Failure to speak up is completely on you - if you don't know how to draw the line in the sand, then you're not managing your professional life as well as you think.
March is nowhere even close. Just quit - lateral to a BB coverage group or even a capital markets group. They'll pay out your year-end prorated bonus (based on their buckets, not your EBs, so it'll be lower of course) but at least you will have a normalish life.
Probably like 80-85, but the difference between 85 and 100 is massive. The curve isn't linear because at some point, it goes from not having free time every weeknight to getting less than 5 hours sleep. Those incremental 10 hours are where it gets bad.
There’s just no way your sleeping at 4-6am consistently the entire week. If you actually are, it’s a no brainer to quit. Is it a larger or smaller EB?
You clearly haven’t worked in a sweat shop lol
No, just fucking no dude. Smack yourself out of this line of thinking.
You know what they'll do if you quit? They'll staff someone else and have a replacement at your desk by the end of the week. Look at how many posts on here talk about a hot lateral market. We are all replaceable. Every single one of us from MDs down.
You know what's not so easily replaced? Your health and mental well being. No amount of money is going to fix that. You going to be broke and/or homeless if you miss that March bonus? No. Reread what you wrote, think about how much more of yourself you'd lose hanging on for that dough. It's not worth it, the money will come.
Moelis in the house!
Talk to your staffer. If they don't care then start telling your VPs that you're too tied up to work on stuff on certain deals. If that doesn't work then talk to your group head and tell him you can't be staffed on deals that require you to literally be in two places at once, and need to discuss your staffing situation. If that doesn't work, then tell him you're not able to work in that capacity and don't think it's fair to have your performance suffer because you're not able to be two places at once. If that doesn't work then quit.
Are you really putting the EB's deals before your health?
Quit as soon as possible.
>Dont know how to quit. There's a deal I'm working on that will derail completely if I quit - they'll beg me to stay on until its done. At that point I might as well just stay on to get the bonus
Can't tell if you're a psychopath or lying about your experience. You're the first person I've ever heard of who hasn't learned that shit can wait / you can push back by the time you hit associate. I've literally never experienced anything that was consistently required to be done at 4-6am or even after 1-2am. You have to have some backbone whether that be pushing back or quitting.
- if you’ve been the group for 5 years, no one wants to lose you and no one will blame you if things aren’t perfect. Work with the team to get out of the hole you are in right now
- deliverables will never be perfect. No deal will be perfect
- it’s client services. We put a good effort but we can’t solve their problems
- as someone already said - things can wait. You don’t need to solve it right away. You don’t need to own what might be someone’s work or problem
- banking in particular is a long game. Trying to do everything or getting nervous burns people out. It’s about optimal outcome with best effort that makes you look good. Try that
- unlike what someone said, your team probably cares about and won’t fire you or even pay you less if you raise the issue. Client doesn’t control your outcome anyway
- it’s been a horrific stretch since April / May of 2020 once covid quietness went away. We all hope it subsides soon
Jesus Christ, man. Reread your own post. Listen to yourself. You've been fucking brainwashed. Let me help you, brother.
>I have a family who loves and supports me which is probably the only reason I haven't killed myself by now. They all sat me down last night and begged me to quit
Listen to them and fucking quit. Read what you just said. You are thinking about KILLING YOURSELF over an OFFICE JOB.
If you heard some data entry clerk say that they were thinking about killing themselves over their job you would be like "dude what the hell, just quit".
Despite how "sexy" you've been brainwashed into thinking banking is, it's literally just a fucking office job that isn't worth KILLING YOURSELF over.
>Dont know how to quit.
Open up outlook. Click New Email. Type in your staffer's name in the first line. Type "I Quit" in the subject line. Type "I am terminating my employment at bank effective immediately" into the body of the email. That's all you have to fucking do.
>There's a deal I'm working on that will derail completely if I quit - they'll beg me to stay on until its done.
Dude, are you even listening to yourself? Who gives a FUCK if the deal falls apart? Did these people give a fuck about you when they worked you 20 hours a day to the point of suicide? Come on, man. That's the brainwashing talking.
Think about this: You are thinking of KILLING YOURSELF but you won't leave because you're scared that your boss's deal might fall apart? Jesus Christ, when did people get so enslaved by their jobs.
>At that point I might as well just stay on to get the bonus
Cool, I guess that bonus will come in handy for your family to buy you a nice casket after you've blown your brains all over the CIM that your MD needs by tomorrow but won't read until next week for a pitch that has zero chance of happening. But hey, I'm sure your bank will at least wait until your body is cold to put up the job posting on LinkedIn.
I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm yelling at not just you but MYSELF because I was in the exact same boat except I was a first year who was 3 months away from the bonus. Suicidal thoughts, family telling you to quit, endless late nights, and perpetual misery. My family almost took me to a psych ward after a few nervous breakdowns.
I quit and found another job in 3 months. With <1 year of professional work experience and less than 5 closed deals on my resume.
You're a second year associate. You have been a professional for over 5 years and have accumulated an insane amount of transaction, technical, and leadership experiences. You're a dream for other companies to hire.
Just fucking quit and take control of your life again.
Just tell yourself, “I am 100% quitting in 6 months.”
Then let your performance reflect that reality. Laptop shuts at 10PM. MIA on Saturdays.
Chances are, your perceived performance won’t suffer as much as you think. And if it does, so what? You’re quitting in 6 months.
For what it's worth, I can fully empathize with this and am near my breaking point as well. I'm an A2A2VP working 90 hour weeks consistently... unbelievable deal activity without enough support at the associate / analyst level across multiple deals. We are in an unprecedent M&A market as you know, and this is not sustainable whatsoever.
I can't fully appreciate your situation but I share much of the same sentiment. For what it's worth, I think this year will be a tremendous bonus year where making it to March will give you a lot of extra freedom with a couple years of living expenses hit at once. If you are truly done with the job (which I am sure you are), decide that you are getting your bonus and then transitioning to something else... but first take a few months off to travel, get your mental / physical health right. Having that extra bonus will provide alot more comfort.
Something I'm struggling with weekly / daily and use the above to give me hope.
Good luck and hang in... we will power through this! :)
dude, no offense but your corporate vp bullshit talk is part of the problem
this guy is about to kill himself and you're telling him to hold on for SIX MONTHS aka HALF OF A YEAR aka 2022 just for money
this is kind of why i hate senior bankers. all you fucks do is think about the dollars
the dollars and all of that """financial freedom""" won't be worth shit if he kills himself next week. if he's serious about being suicidal this guy needs to quit NOW
I was just giving my two cents and what I would do in that situation... hence the caveats around not being able to fully grasp their situation. Don't think I understand all of the anger in your tone, but that's whatever. We are all people here... that come to try and both receive and provide advice. All advice will be different based on perspectives, experience and personal viewpoints. What I typed was basically saying to hang in but make the decision to be done with banking now but to finish strong. Often times, reframing perspective can help alleviate quite a bit of stress and negative thoughts.
For what it's worth, I'm not a senior banker (VPs are not senior bankers)... I've been grinding in this world for a decade and am also tired of this horrible lifestyle. Also, you may not totally grasp how to utilize "no offense" but that's ok. We are all stressed in this industry, but unsolicited name calling to someone is pretty toxic, when they are just trying to provide an honest, constructive perspective for reframing mindset to help someone through something challenging.
you don't understand the anger in my tone because you don't realize that you're the enemy and your """advice""" is dogshit
you can't even make a post without sounding like you're constructing a snarky email that'll go out to an associate who left a comma on the footnote of page 72, you blinded fuck
also, the reason your advice is dogshit is because "it is what you would do in that situation" which is what led you to being a VP who speaks like a corporate drone on an internet forum
I don't normally post on here, but I started as an analyst and have been a banker for 10+ years, currently a Director. I've gone through a lot of ups and downs, though never quite as bad as what you described. Here is my advice:
1) Speak to your group head. Tell him or her that you are struggling with your health and need to take a week off starting next week. Don't ask, just tell. Regardless of what he says, do not show up for work or log in next week. During your week off don't check work emails.
2) When you return, set yourself specific work hours (eg. 9am - 11pm) and do not do any work or check email outside those hours. Do your best to get what you can done in that time and be as efficient as possible. If anything slips it is not your problem, it is the fault of your team who inadequately staffed the project.
3) I have seen some people who cannot do #2, usually because they are perfectionists and cannot handle doing anything at below 100% accuracy / not being the #1 performer in the group. If you fall into that bucket you do need to leave. No-one is ever going to tell you to do less work in your banking career and you will always feel like it isn't as good as it could be. You are responsible for setting your own limits.
I think you owe it to yourself to see if you can find a way to work sustainably in the group long term, but if you can't it is definitely not worth being as unhappy as it sounds like you are.
Thanks all for the support and advice (even the tough love advice). Much appreciated all around.
I spoke to my staffer, MD and VP. All were supportive and offered a bit of time off (week, etc). However I think I'll need a month at least to recharge which is harder to swing.
I've decided to try and stick it out a few more weeks to try and get a new position lined up before quitting. Will update this post with however it shakes out.
Some of the biggest lies put out by corporations is that you're important at a company and that you should be loyal to a company.
Here's some news that is probably striking to you. You're nothing but a COG in the machine and are easily replaceable. I have interacted with several upper-level employees (VP+) who were at a firm for 5+ years (some even 15+ years) walked off and moved on to another opportunity. Those guys were replaced within a few weeks at those big corporations. Yes, a few WEEKS. Their legacy was gone in a few WEEKS. You will be replaced very easily. And to that extent, if you're not who cares? I remember one user on here mentioning how his friends were laid off during the GFC by their keycards being inactivated. No personal message, nothing. All that hard work, gone in an instant. Your corporation if they have to will do this to YOU. You'll be laid off in a few seconds without hesitation while here you are undergoing mental turmoil to be loyal to a business. Cut the mentality out now. The firm does not care and will not care about you. This is a corporation. Your family cares for you, not the corporation
Additionally, the idea of "if I can only hold on to the bonus" is a DANGEROUS slippery slope. You'll start shifting the goal posts to "if only I can get the VP promotion." "If only I hit a net worth of $2M". "If only..." and you'll be stuck in this until you under go a mental breakdown and end up in the hospital or kill yourself and be DEAD.
As for jobs? There are plenty of openings for someone with 5 years experience in IBD. Even if there were only few, you're very close to the top of any applicant pool at this point.
Don't be like the weak man who gets seduced by an attractive girl he knows is cheating on him and struggles to end the relationship. With any wound or difficulty the best thing to do is rip the band-aid off IMMEDIATELY.
Walk away from the job immediately and don't look back. Take a week off and then start applying for new jobs.