Cold feet and dread
As the commencement date of my FT BB IB role ticks closer, I find myself dreading the loss of freedom that would soon ensue. I first went into IB expecting 80 hours, with some all-nighters spaced inbetween. The reality seems to be at around 110 hours consecutively, week after weary week (i.e. working til 4am everyday even on weekends). After fighting tooth and nail to land a conversion, I am now experiencing severe cold feet, with none of the bright eyed bushy tailed excitement I used to have.
There was once when I was enamored with the glamour of IB but it is no more. Software engineers are paid the same if not higher (with 10x my signing bonus) with humane/flexi hours of 9am - 5.30pm. Despite how competitive it was to land the summer internship, we are ultimately not paid for our brains, but our ability to trudge through 110 hours a week in an environment where everyone is sleep deprived and has no chill.
It seems there's no worser time to be disillusioned, I'm about to begin an exciting career in a highly coveted role and yet I dread the day it starts. Has anyone felt the same way? What kept you going?
Cocaine, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Pornhub
all at the same time???
The first two taken together won't bode well for you BJJ career
I would just recruit aggressively for the buyside on-cycle. The process is so early it nowadays it will probably be done by the time you have barely hit the desk from training.
With your offer in hand, you can afford to spend the next 2 years doing the absolute bare minimum and coasting (not like you're going to learn anything of serious incremental value making that 99th profile). You'll be in a much stronger negotiating position to pushback against shitty staffings and other bullshit thrown your way, and its not like your after-tax bonus will be materially different anyway. I think most other rational people would gladly trade a few extra thousand in after-tax bonus money for an extra 10 to 20 hours not spent working.
I know what I have just described is not the most politically correct action plan, and anyone who is an associate and up is probably shuddering reading this, but that's how the game works. Not my fault people decided to setup a system with misaligned incentive structures.
completely agree with you wholeheartedly but wondering if you share the same fear of getting fired for basically slacking off
yea same xD
Coasting will almost never get you fired in a corporate setting. As an IB Analyst it's even harder because it is an unspoken rule to not lay off your analysts under ordinary circumstances.
Sorry dude, this feels like it’s spoken by someone who doesn’t know what they’re really saying and certainly doesn’t have the longitudinal benefit of understanding what exactly they’re suggesting.
Sure you can slack off after securing your exit but you’re also less likely to get good staffings which means you’ll learn less and then when you hit the desk at TPG/Advent/Silverlake/etc you’re at a disadvantage to the EVR/PJT analyst that grinded their ass off and has twice as many reps as you. In banking, it’s not a huge liability but in PE, when you’re likely competing for a promotion, you need that experience so that you can provide as much value as you can from day one and prove why you should be a VP vs someone who has an otherwise identical resume to you.
I mean if you’re fine doing the target >> IB >> MF/MM PE >> HSW grind because that’s as prestigious as it gets then feel free to dick around after locking up an offer but if you want to build your career then I suggest you view your time in IB as an opportunity to learn as much as possible in the time you have. This is the time to hone your skills and soak up as much as you can because rest assured, there’s at least one other person in your class at your PE fund that put their head down and helped create a huge advantage for themselves.
I get the argument you're trying to make, but there are several flawed assumptions. The number of reps point is kinda bullshit, you're really telling me you're going to be sooo much better at building LBOs (off a template, no less) or managing administrative process work because you took on that fourth extra sellside staffing as a banking analyst? Also if reps are so important, why do banking analysts regularly leave a year early to start their jobs at KKR, TPG or elite HFs like Coatue, Melvin etc... (those are all real examples)
Additionally, there is usually minimal correlation between who is a good analyst and who gets the "good staffings". It usually just comes down to who has capacity at the time, and usually the studs are going to be staffed to the brim anyway, so when a new megadeal comes thru the pipeline they are forced to give it to someone random. At my firm, the people who were staffed on / closed the $10bn+ M&A deals ranged from the studs of the class to literally the worst analysts in the entire class.
To your point about once you hit PE, 70%+ of most well-known PE funds across this forum are going to kick you out after 2 years as an associate anyway, no matter how much of a stud you are. Sure, if you're at one of the 20 to 25% where they are willing to promote internally, with or without a MBA, you should obviously grind (assuming you even want to stay in finance long-term), but note I was only speaking about banking in my prior post anyway.
Also I am not exactly speaking out of my ass, I can name at least four people I know personally just off the top of my head, who are now doing perfectly fine at Apollo/Bain Cap/Blackstone/Warburg Pincus, that basically did what I described in my prior post.
Thank you for the advice! I heard the buyside recruitment process starts when headhunters approach you, do I just cold email them before then?
The headhunters will reach out to you if you're at any known BB or EB, no need to cold email them. To be clear, the process officially "kicks off" once interviews start being conducted by firms. There is usually some leadtime (maybe a month or two, it depends) between when headhunters will reach out to the new first year analysts, and when interviews start to actually happen.
Oh
To be honest, it takes maturity to realize that the hyped job isn't the one you want. I was in a similar position as you but for IB internship vs trading and ultimately chose trading because of the lifestyle. That being said, IB is great start even if you are unhappy and can open doors that are better for you.
Feeling the same way man. Let me know if you figure it out.
Just the other day I was reading about the best way to quit, and I remembered I hadn’t even started FT. Pretty depressing. In the meantime I’m trying to be in the moment with these last few months of school and appreciate my life being pretty much exactly the way I’d like it.
Also, don’t watch Fight Club or read Nietzsche. I’ve done both recently and they’ve made me even more disillusioned.
What group are you in that is consistently 110 hours? I think you're hyping yourself in the wrong direction. Even sweatshop groups don't truly average 110.
Agree^
Although I’m sure there are valid anecdotes of some nightmare groups/staffing situations, I would say most of the time, even in the sweatiest sweatshops, it will never be 110+ every week for 52 straight.
Also for what it’s worth, I’ve found that the kids who bitch/brag about their 120 hr beatings also tend to be the individuals that are consistently on their phones looking at some combo of Instagram/tinder/YouTube/ESPN all day....
Why didnt you recruit for tech corp dev? You still can....find another startup entry level finance gig in the next couple months and then reneg on the summer ft start. Serious. Many other companies will respect your summer internship experience in ib and would take you on. You dont have to start ft; find a new job!
PM me
Have done so!
You’re going to average 75-85 hours a week. Become good at your job and it will probably be a little less than that.
Do your time. Make connections. Work hard. You’ll have every opportunity in the world to pivot careers after doing your two years
I've been trying to tell myself this as well, that it was just a particularly busy period during my internship and that I would see better days when I start work. It was 100+ hours throughout, with the last 4 weeks being a blurry 110+ hours. I saw my seniors having their holiday plans cancelled a few days before they were due to leave. Those that managed to go on vacation still had to work 60% of the time.
Probably, hopefully, this lingering dread would go away once I start work and keep busy
Yeah right.. 110+ hours! You slow at work? Lol! Maybe stay in the office all year long..
I think perhaps the strenuous summer hours were more of a test (as well as some happenstance). Look at the experience as a great opportunity to have learned some basics so hopefully once FT you will be more efficient. Maybe you can plan certain things now to set yourself up so you're very efficient at the office, now that you know some of the apps used, staff you'll be working with, processes. Set yourself up as needed at home - maybe you need some household help/laundry/dry cleaning delivered/groceries delivered. You'll find ways to stay connected to friends even if they can't see you often. You'll become super efficient. Maybe your hours won't be as bad as you think, and remember, this is not a prison sentence. You do not have to stay. Take it one day at a time rather than getting worked up in advance. Start studying for the FINRA exams now. Plan a fun vacation prior to your start, talk to friends and let them know you'll have a scary year or two and to please be patient/nonjudgmental, and check that you're still breathing. Don't spend too much time evaluating the waste of time/effort in doing the nth pitch book - it's just part of the process - stay positive.
How did you learn so much about the "reality" without even starting the job? Are you just relying on WSO?
I worked in an absolute sweatshop group in a BB, which I confirmed when 100% of those who left during my tenure said that their new shop (even when it was an EB) wasn't as bad as the sweatshop I worked in. It felt like absolute hell some days, and a couple times I probably pushed the sleep deprivation to a dangerous level where the chance of a heart attack or something goes up to like 1% or something tiny but insane from a medical perspective.
But even in that environment, confirmed to be the worst on the street, it was 80-100 hours. Not 110 hours consistently. Nobody does that. Especially after 2014 or so when all those protective rules came in.
Lighten up, you'll be fine.
My best survival tip is make sleep your #2 priority after work. If you grab sleep whenever you can, you'll protect your health. Biggest mistake we made was we'd work our ass off, then suddenly stumble on some free time and get excited about the chance to go have fun. Our joke was that if we were leaving the office at 10pm we'd call it a "night of possibility" because that's so early. Like I'd be on the elevator with my jacket on and someone else would get on and be like "ooh look at you leaving at 10, night of possibility!"
But if you can get your ass to bed at every opportunity, you'll be fresher at work and find it less miserable and the whole experience won't have to be so destructive.
...
Any chance you'd be willing to share/hint at which group it was that was super sweaty? Possibly full time recruiting so want to avoid if possible.
Well its not really the case anymore, its still a pretty rough group but the extremism has subsided. It was an unusual growth phase and that drove a lot of the insanity.
So as to not totally dodge the question, I'll say that it was a lower BB, so not GS/MS/JPM but one of the other ones. and it was a chaotic time because the group was undersized relative to the sector (i.e. it was a major bread and butter sector but didn't have the staffing of a large grou) and got slammed with dealflow. Good problem to have in a way, but hours got extreme.
But its not like that today, and even if it was I didn't hate it. Learned a lot and enjoyed being around colleagues. The only thing I would've done different is minimize risks with sleep deprivation.
It probably sounds really minor when I'm like "get to bed early when you get a chance, sleep in when you get a chance." But sleep works more like compound interest. A little more cumulatively over time is huge for health.
I can't share, but just apply everywhere regardless, landing a sweat shop is still better than ending up with nothing. Also, the country you're applying to (& not just the BB) also matters as the culture would vary, so fortunately for you we may not end up having the same fate.
Dr. Rahma Dikhinmahas is right about the protective rules coming in, but you would realize not every bank has outlined them in their policies (will not name names, but give it a google), and even if they do, not every group enforces them strictly. It really depends on the culture. With nothing in place to protect you, your time and energy is free for all to take, and as a young monkey you really have no say in stopping it
I would say the difference between 80 hours and 110 hours are worlds apart, you actually have breathing space with 80
I'd dread it too if I had to work that many hours... I bet its not as bad as you might think it will be. I too am awaiting my start at a BB this summer. But I have more optimism because I know I'm going to have a ton of opportunities after being there, and I'll be surrounded by smart people who are all in the same boat. Just be lucky you aren't going to be working serving tables till 2AM at a restaurant making absolute shit money- you are literally going to be in the top .01% of careers- yeah tech is there too, but who wants to do that shit?
lol tech. I heard people working 5 or 6 hours a day making more money than IB people.
And there are YouTubers / Instagram models making more than Tech people working 0 hours per week... your point is? Life isn't just about sitting on your ass and doing nothing, and that's not a realistic career plan for the vast majority of people anyway. We're in a tough world and most people need to prepare for reality instead of looking at someone else for a psychological benchmark. If you can't code but you like numbers, finance is a perfectly excellent career option.
You're gonna be fine. Being worried is normal. I was worried too, but it goes away. Getting close with your analyst class during training helps a lot. In terms of the long nights, you'll get used to them after awhile. My suggestion would be to find a couple hobbies outside of work that aren't too time intensive and stick to them semi regularly - for me it's mentoring / personal fitness / cooking. Those things keep me sane. As long as you prioritize taking care of your mental health as best you can given the constraints of the job, you'll get through this. For reference, I'm also at a BB - it's tough, but manageable.
Feel the same after my internship. Was pretty excited to return because I liked the people but now I'm dreading starting FT. I try to look at it in a positive light - at least you are employed and are going to be paid a decent salary. But at times I regret not pursuing other academic fields. That's part of life I guess
You still can pursue other academic fields, promise. You're just getting started. It's a journey, truly. Things will work out, stay positive, you're smart, you figured this out, you will figure out the next steps.
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/suck-it-up-8-steps-to-getting-thro…
This is a good one -
Sit et voluptatibus tenetur vel ut velit exercitationem. Dolor quia et facilis nihil dolore.
Velit pariatur voluptates soluta qui et. Quibusdam illum iure velit et maxime magnam.
Molestias omnis sequi fuga voluptate. Voluptatem alias qui consequatur in eum pariatur quis. Laborum consectetur excepturi repellendus molestias et repellendus.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Quas provident magnam eligendi. Hic quis non laborum odit odit.
Eligendi odit facilis doloribus repudiandae. Et quasi qui iste nisi autem tempore. Autem aut sunt culpa est modi.
Nostrum quasi quisquam iure veritatis quis vitae est. Consequuntur provident qui delectus quasi rerum. Sapiente eveniet eos veritatis fugiat maxime rerum quae.