International ranking of firms
How would you rank firms, on an international basis?
Please don't reiterate a sheltered US perspective, assuming that, just because one firm is huge in the US, it must be huge everywhere. This always seems to happen, and people will ignorantly debate how much better XYZ firm is than ABC firm, simply because they're only aware of XYZ's US presence (i.e. Deutsche is huge overseas, but I'm sure many people on this board consider Deutsche a second-rate firm simply because of it's US presence).
In terms of International, and in terms of Asia Ex-Japan, how do the following firms rank?
GS MS LEH JPM Citi ML Deutsche CS UBS
Also, how do Macquarie and Nomura fit into these rankings (note that I am more concerned about HK/SG, not so much Aus/Jap).
If I forgot any "large players", feel free to add them in.
GS MS Citi/UBS CS/JPM ML Lehman Deutsche
DB is pretty bad everywhere else for investment banking, they are bad not only in the USA. Lehman and Merrill are very weak outside the USA, especially Lehman. UBS is pretty strong in Asia and Europe. that's why I put it on par with Citi.
I understand you're trying to focus on M&A here, but I wouldn't bash DB too much. They are one of the biggest debt underwriters in the world and incredibly strong in all areas in Europe. And as far as marketing, origination, and trading (i.e. S&T), they are one of the best in the world. And since S&T brings in a hell of a lot more business than M&A, their reputation there must matter for something.
It's too hard to rank since any ranking would be pretty similar to the US ranking, simply because NYC is ranked right up there in terms of everything (dealflow, prospects, prestige etc). Db's not weak in IB everywhere. It's alright in London and obviously great in Frankfurt. But DB just doesn't get the ring like any of the other banks would. Anyway here's an attempt to rank internationally.
Macquarie and Nomura not worth a mention internationally at this stage. Also not worth a mention Asia ex-Aust/Japan.
The rankings in Asia (ex-Japan/Aust) would be pretty similar, save I'd bring Citi up a bit and put UBS right after MS. Would probably put DB together with CS. Then again M&A means nothing in HK. The markets are all about debt/equity.
Anyway why do all these rankings matter to you? At the end it's about your deal exposure. You could go to an MM like Gresham and pull off the BHP/Rio Tinto deal, at which stage you can snub GS's offer.
You might be right, but I think it's a two-edged sword. Why does a firm get a good reputation? Because it pulls in major deals. How do you get exposed to projects involving major deals? Work at a firm that wins these deals. Reputation rankings, in a circular sense, dictate to a small degree, the types of deals you'll get exposed to.
If you work at a MM, you might get the chance to work on a BHP-caliber deal once in a blue moon, whereas the probability at a top-shop is much greater.
The MM is a bad example. But all the big banks get to do big deals.
LEH is very weak outside of the US. I would put it last or second last before DB. i am talking about M & A here. you can check the league tables for Europe, Asia ex Japan or Japan. LEH consistently falls outside the top 10, and even below the local players. In 2006, LEH is #19 for AEJ (deals announced) and #11 for Europe (deals announced). Source: Thomson Financial. No significant improvement in 2007 and the positions are even worse in 2005. Come to think of it, DB is probably better internationally than LEH.
I looked at the Thomson tables and the US makes up nearly half the m&a value. Europe makes up pretty much the rest. Asia (ex-Jap) is nothing. Take a look yourself.
For international rankings, what's relevant therefore is just US and Europe. Who cares if LEH is out of the top 10 in Asia, when Asia is nothing in m&a terms.
Putting LEH up the top is fairly consistent with the Americas rankings on Thomson. LEH is also in top 10 in Europe in Thomson's Q3 2007. DB is consistently 9th in both regions. The fact that UBS is at the top in Asia isn't going to lift its position when Asia accounts for nothing.
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