Morgan Stanley offered some groups 100% returns and others only got 50% returns. Heard favoritism and diversity were the primary decision ingredients assuming summers weren't total duds (except for the studs in LATAM - my boys killed it this summer, hope they ballin out at LQ all weekend).
Anyone know if they're recruiting FT?
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My bank was not near this low - can people verify this? Crazy if true. How does this not destroy their campus relationships?
Because which campus is going to say no to Morgan Stanley?
campus relationships ahahahaha
Can confirm. My group was 66%. Another was 50%. How did capital markets do?
I'm telling you man, this bank sucks.
Shareholder advisory (where all the dudes accused of SA go) was mad low
Capital markets was actually a bloodbath. Heard some groups took almost no one
Saw a girl crying in the MS lobby. There's blood on your hands, Gorman
Shareholder advisory gets full time analysts? At junior level especially it’s not really an IB career. Even senior level folks in shareholder advisory, I squint a bit when they call themselves bankers. But at least at the senior level, the lines blur to a point where you’re all some kind of general advisor to a degree. Very surprised that analysts get staffed full time in a group like that.
hahaha
Funny how everyone on his forum is so adamant that GS overhires and MS doesn’t and then GS has a near 100% return offer rate versus MS here. Don’t believe everything you read here…
That logic is flawed. 100% return rate at GS because nobody wants to fucking work there lol I guarantee you most will leverage those offers to go to another bank. Goldman discount doesn't work anymore. No one wants to get paid less to work in a shitty culture in a bank where people are jumping ship
Del
Pretty delusion to think that most people would choose T2 banks over GS
Sorry to hear that you didn't get the offer from GS you always dreamed about
GS discount? Think GS top bucket analyst bonus this year is 50% higher than MS lol
How big is the discount?
Does anyone know why MS has such a low return offer rate? Seems really surprising to me it’s so different from Goldman
Not at MS but seems they overhired. MS hires so early that they had 2021-level class sizes and they aren't going to rescind offers so they were kind of stuck with having to lower offers significantly. Other banks will fill 80% of spots and then wait for summer/fall to fill the last 1 or 2 if demand requires it. Intern class sizes of 10-12 were fine a few years ago but these days their peers are only hiring 8 interns for similar-sized groups.
Not only that, the size of these teams seems ridiculously small if they don't plan on replacing with FT hires--equivalent groups at GS seem to be 2x the size/analyst class
Are they really planning to staff M&C, for instance, with 6 analysts/class?
Can confirm that the average (for both associate / analyst) is 50 - 60% for IBD and sub-30% for GCM.
Unfortunately, MS significantly overhired, so management applied relatively severe headcount limits to the return offers.
GCM more like 50-60%
why is GCM that much worse??
This is just so inaccurate for half the groups
You can elaborate and actually add some value to this thread you know?
How many do they hire for each groups usually
People are actually accepting offers from MS these days? Lmaoooooooooo. I would rather work at guggenheim or jefferies than that shit show, absolutely fuck that
Confirming these numbers
Absolutely horrendous return rate. GPUG is a bit lower, FIG was less than 60%, buddy from Toronto office said it was also 50% there so you can add that to the list. Healthcare I believe was lower than 55% - maybe if they hired less sophomores it would’ve been better…
Gorman’s actually an idiot for over hiring like crazy, specifically telling the interns that “there’s offers for everyone in the table” and that we’re past the firing cycle only to do this. Stupid company, hard to believe they employ almost double the people as GS and somehow manage to have less the deal flow. Maybe if they hired more people who understood the basic difference between Ebitda and Cashflow before the internship they’d be fine.
The diversity program rules are also absolutely useless. You’re really telling me someone who is in a diversity program who still uses a mouse in excel and doesn’t understand the basics of corporate finance got a return, but people who’ve interned at bulge brackets before who are quicker than some full times didn’t?
Absolute shit show - but if you didn’t get a return maybe it’s just part of the plan - plenty of ways to make money in this world and do what you love. As nice as it is making 120K post tax at 22, it does come with a lot of dick sucking stupid VPs that are balding at 29, have no life, no wife, etc. I know EDs at MS that have had to miss their children’s bday parties because of a client ask - definitely a “long term” career am I right.
But overall what this offer rate showed is you get hired back for being willing to suck dick and have no life for two years - which is fair and what banking demands. But if you have actual brains and can think - much much better ways to earn cash while also having time to continue to learn.
I hope all the MS seniors understand that the people who didn’t get returns are gonna work their ass off so that eventually they become a client of MS and can shaft the seniors as much as they can
Can you elaborate on diversity/sophomore return offer situation? Fucked up that they’re causing solid junior interns to get shafted
^
They still have quotas for FT as well. So for FT conversion you're not competing with everyone, you're competing with your demographic. And since the diversity SAs are on average worse than non diverse, there's going to be some overlap between competency and who got returns.
For example as a white/Asian guy you'd need to be in top 50-60% of other white white/Asian guys, which is significantly harder than being in the top 50-60% of overall cohort since the non diverse kids have to be cracked to get in. So therefore there's going to be some non diverse kids who get cut who are better than diverse kids who receive returns.
Honestly this might be a bullish indicator for banking activity and deal activity in general.
Bank hiring is a leading indicator in the opposite direction... small classes (underhiring) means a boom is coming... big classes (overhiring) means we're already on the way down. Those small classes (due to low offer rates) are gonna get wrecked with work at some point these next two years.
Not sure why the monkey shit... banks historically have over- & under-hired in the wrong direction... this is a fact.
I’m very sorry to hear this. Wish all the MS interns without an offer the best of luck. You got so far, means you have what you need to keep hustling and ride this out. I’m sorry if things didn’t work out as you expected them too. Try to reflect on the experience you had, learn from it, send thank you notes and leave on good terms as you never know when you might need these people.
Any info on FSG?
FSG was 6/10...past few years has been 100%
Tech was 6/10, not 5/9.
Sounds like you’re pissed your gf didn’t get a return offer but that’s the reality of this shit that she probably just didn’t cut it. Those rates are a reflection of the current market and deal flow. All of those cucks and non-targets you were complaining about were a result of when MS was desperate for headcount and had like 99% return rates. Can’t have both buddy.
Headcount was managed well actually if you look at % of layoff. MS was on the lower end compared to other banks.
Poor child who thinks they know everything. They did mismanage headcount. Have you seen the MD exodus because they were unable to layoff enough?
The announcements of “retirement” are fake. MS offered them a payout package. Don’t put Gorman or management on a pedestal… they fucked up gravely, and you should just accept that they did.
We'll no shit Sherlock. Every bank had cutbacks across all levels. No banks made it through untouched. At least you're not at Citi, CS, Lazard or any of regional banks that literally closed shop. Why are you so butt hurt, they're just interns who'll be fine in the industry. It's not the end of the world. But you obviously have a very personal connection to them…maybe your man crush isn't coming? Boohoo.
Yes the markets not great, bonuses will probably be down. That's offsets the record bull market we had over the last decade. Your inexperience is really showing with this post son.
I'm not exactly sure why everyone is calling MS a shit bank etc.
Like, you want to boycott them? you got offers at BX, GS, JPM?
Times are rough for EVERYONE. even for the full timers. bonuses are down, a lot of people are overworked, even MDs are hustling to close deals. no one deserves anything.
huh?
I’ll be very surprised if MS looks like the outlier here in the end. I think they will be par for the course.
Banks “mismanage headcount” pretty much on purpose. It’s of course preferred if they could get it exactly right. But they always overshoot.
Being understaffed can be a massive problem that costs millions in lost fees, and eventually drives away MD and leads to more permanent big losses.
Being overstaffed isn’t a problem for the bank . . it’s a problem for the people who lose their jobs.
does this model mean that they will hire more nondiverse full timers? Asking as someone who just finished up sophomore summer and wants to move up market
At a BB as an Aso2 and I’ll say we had the ability to convert all our interns FT but the quality this year was so dog shit. I’m hearing the same at other banks, so it might not be over hiring but just a bunch of kids somehow getting an internship who should not be coming on full time.
My team opted to go to the market to hire for the remaining full time positions as opposed to keeping 2 of our SAs who sucked. Sounds like we made the right move as some other banks aggressively made cuts too.
yea interns are competing with tons of experienced talent on the market right now - which doesn’t help. little to do with diversity or MS being a sh* bank
I don’t think this is unique to MS or that they’re setting the standard here. I think every big company does this regardless of industry.
I interned at JPM and BOA in Lev Fin during good markets almost a decade ago now and this was the policy. At BOA they were building out a group and sold us on everyone getting return offers but by the time we interned 3 months later they over hired and the return rate was 30%. JPM was a more established situation but even then return rates were 50%.
Anecdotally from friends I know who went the tech route over hiring and lower return rates seem to be the norm as well. Buddy got hired in a group with 20 people and by the end of year one their were 3 people left.
"Citi equity research 4/7 interns given returns - normally is 100% (keep anon)"
"Please keep anon. MS summer associates looking at ~40% return offers"
Nomura Greentech: 72% SA, 73% MBAs
Nomura General: 92% SA, 0% MBA
Offer Rate for 2023 intern data
Source: WSO Social Team
x
Similar incidents occurred at the WF NY this summer. Regrettably, almost all minority associates were let go, while their non-diverse counterparts retained their positions. For individuals from minority backgrounds, I would recommend considering alternative paths such as consulting or strategy, as the field of Investment Banking proves to be highly rigged.
You're joking, right?
East Asians count as minority background?
Their non-diverse counterparts were likely hired on merit and thus performed better, leading to their retainment of employment. Diversity gets you in the door, it does not keep you there long if you can't perform though. They only need a few tokens up at the top so you can't reliably make it to MD playing the diversity card. Welcome to merit-based achievement sir.
What geography are we talking about? USA (NYC more specifically) / London?
FYI the post has been completely changed from the original
50-60% was normal pre-Covid, the years 2020-2022 were the exception. Most people just don't remember that far back apparently.
Seems like great policy for banks to have return rate at around 50%.
It's not bc you were hired as an SA that you are good enough to be an investment banker full time.
Interns who want an offer will work hard over the summer. Summer internship is a 10 week interview.
Also, it allows banks to give a chance to more ppl and to select based on work and competence more than CV.
Except for the part where 10% of the spots are given out to the friends and children of MDs and whatnot
It sucks. Worth remembering it's not the end of the world though. If you can get an internship at Morgan Stanley you're gonna do fine in life. But, totally get it's horrible in the moment.
This stupid fuck just changed the post description and now I can’t see what the original post was.
Presuming he was going through a group-by-group return rate for MS?
The original post was way funnier, ranting about non targets and MDs.
Does anyone know any Off-Cycle stats at MS, and how they compare with the Summer Intern return rates?
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