On-Cycle, IB Offers, Hair Splitting, Depression, and "The Path"
Every so often I check WSO and when the comment section gets too brutal, I realize I need to step up and write. It is now one of those times again. So WSO, welcome back your favorite anonymous poster who loves to bash this forum with perspective when it is needed most. Let's dive in.
The Message Again: Careers Aren't Linear And You All Need To Relax.
While this forum is an amazing resource, it lacks frequent posts by older individuals. As a result, the advice and sentiment is often limited to those a few years out of school, which lacks a long-term perspective on careers. When I see posts talking about severe depression in PE/IB, suicidal thoughts, or extreme dissatisfaction and distress surrounding recruitment for PE/IB or choosing between offers, I just want to grab you guys/girls by the shoulders, shake you, and yell "Please talk to an older adult!" I suspect many of you aren't and you either don't have an older mentor to talk to about personal/work decisions, or you are bottling up your anxieties and fears and I want to help and give advice. For context, I've been through IB recruitment, PE recruitment, and disillusionment with work and for most these posts can relate heavily. Think of this post as the advice you 5-7 years in the future might give yourself today.
The Path, Non-Linear Careers, And The Perspective Lost:
2 years IB -> 2 years PE --> Top MBA --> ????
There is a path I suspect many of you are striving for and I want to break the thinking a little bit. This forum has extreme obsession over what I would argue is 6-7 years of a persons career when most people's career lasts 40 years and this is completely being ignored in the current rhetoric. The reason this is relevant is I think many of you are feeling the heat and the pressure of being on some artificial timeline and it's just that--artificial. Let's paint three paths:
Big 4/Corp Finance 1.5 Years --> Lateral to IB 2 Years ---> PE 2 Years --> MBA --> PE 10 Years
IB 2 years --> PE 2 Years --> MBA --> PE 10 years
Do you think at year 10 in PE the individual who worked 1.5 years in big 4 thinks, "Wow, if only I had joined my PE firm 2 years earlier, everything would be different! My whole life was destroyed when I didn't get an IB offer out of school and now I am "behind" everyone by 2 years at 38!" Or do you all think that the person who skipped on-cycle is distraught because they went to a PE firm 1 year later? No, almost no older people think like that.
Put another way, I want you each to look at the senior people you have worked with in your internships and fulltime roles--can any of you identify which of the MD's/partners are 2 years more senior than the other MD's/partners? Hell No! People, Robert Smith (founder of Vista) worked as a chemical engineer out of school. Mitt Romney took a 30 month missionary stint as a Mormon out of school and founded Bain Capital.
You all are creating artificial timelines and manufacturing that missing on-cycle or getting your not ideal job right out of school has you "behind" or in a completely different league as others. It is easy to get lost in a rat race of measuring where you are every year with your peers, but come on! This is a longer game than 6 years! If you are determined enough, you can claw your way into many roles (even if it requires several job hops)
Your Personal & Professional Journey & Work Dissatisfaction:
IB: Again, as mentioned, I have been there. I remember in IB being in an empty office, looking at powerpoint logos and stupid comments, looking out the window, and thinking, "I want to jump out that window and hate everything about my situation right now." If this is you, it's time to get out and make a change. The industry wasn't for me and it was very obvious. Everyday I felt more numb and my hatred grew. So, I began plotting for how I would leave IB. I lined up a calmer role, bounced the second my bonus hit, and left. In retrospect, I don't regret sticking it out an extra 7 months for my bonus, but that might have been some of the more miserable months of my life. Few things are as soul sucking and depressing as having your entire life occupied by a role you don't like for a pay check. It is one thing to work 9-5 and hate your job, but to have your entire life occupied by a role that makes you miserable is really pretty hellish. It's different if you are in the learning stages of the role and find it hard, but you are learning a ton, versus if you are 7+ months in and just hate the job. If you are 7+ months in and you have an inkling of a feeling this career isn't right for you, you are probably right. It isn't. Plan a path to your exit.
Post-IB: Everyone has their own path, and for me IB left me feeling horrible. I wanted my life back, so I found a role that required a 40 hour a week commitment. It was a 9 to 5 and we got off early on friday's. The crazy thing, after 4 months, I hated my job--it was slow, uninteresting, and I was bored. I realized while in IB I glamorized things like weekly drinks with friends, working out every day, joining rec leagues, and dating. But once I got a 40 hour a week job, I didn't have the desire to actually drink with friends every single day of the week. In fact, I learned really if I just was able to reserve one day a week, that seemed to make all the difference. Also, as much as I thought working out and rec leagues would make me happy, I realized I really didn't want to run two a-days as someone in my mid-twenties. This role taught me an enormous amount about myself and I don't regret it. I left after about 7 months and while different, I think I learned about as much about myself as I learned professionally in IB. I decided I didn't actually want a 40 hour a week job, I really wanted a job closer to 60-70 hours with the ability to say, "Hey guys, this Thursday my Mom is in town, so I'm going to be OOO post 5pm, glad to work later wed or on Friday to makeup for that"
From there I had to really work to get back into finance, but fortunately, a semi-decent opportunity came around and I was able to use that to bounce back into finance, I then found another role after that and eventually spun that it into my role now, which I love. The reason I bring this up is because that 7 month role, while some might view as a mistake, was one of the best things to happen to my career. Post that role, I have clarity on what work-life balance I want and I appreciate the fast paced nature and interesting material around me. Post that role, I had peace of mind knowing I now am where I should be which makes me significantly more effective, productive, and happier in my current role. I also know hard boundaries I need to set to love life, while still working a ton. Interestingly, I know people in seats next to me at my current firm who are burned out and about to lose it and I realize me slowing down at 24 was the key to being an all-star in my late twenties/early thirties. We have all heard the cliché of "It's a marathon not a sprint" but it's not a joke.
On Career Dissatisfaction:
Some of you also need to hear this: you are so beyond warped and lost in the sauce if you are thinking about harming yourself over a job it is unreal. Employers don't care about you. They are running a business. You need to protect yourself and they will run you into the ground if you let them. Do not let them. At times, this might mean making difficult decisions. Also, some of you need to acknowledge your limits and deal breakers. For some of you if IB or another job is leaving you suicidal or severely depressed or anxious, take stock of why you feel that way--they are limits and deal breakers and things to avoid in the future. It might be people treat you without respect and you need to work somewhere where people respect you, or it could be that the lack of sleep is killing your mental health and you need to find a role where they let you sleep 8 hours a night. The important thing is recognizing those deal breakers and learning from them, so that you can find a role that better aligns with what you want. There was a time where I thought I could be in the NBA. I'm now confident that won't happen and I am ok with that. Some of you need to recognize it is ok if you don't want to sleep 5 hours a night and get yelled at--most people don't want that life and most people have highly successful lives with better career and life satisfaction who don't have that in their work environment.
What is the wrong thing to do, is not learning from your experience and harming yourself because your employer isn't looking out for your interests. Along with this, some of you need to know this play that I have seen many people use over the years:
Call your manager/staffer and have this discussion:
"Manager, I am at a breaking point. I need a week to revaluate whether I can stay here long term. Otherwise, consider this my notice. I understand this isn't great, but I am at my limit and equally disappointed as you are."
Almost all firms will give you a week and during that week you can collect your thoughts, call mentors, and evaluate whether this is the right role for you. If you genuinely are about to harm yourself, do this immediately, and get help ASAP. I promise it will workout--I have worked with numerous coworkers in finance who have had this conversation, came back after a week, and resumed their employment and everyone forgot about the incident. Your life is worth more than an employer trying to juice you for all you are worth.
Hair Splitting
As people begin to make on-cycle decisions and IB internship decisions, there is this temptation to take stock of internships and roles and treat them as rankable and extremely deterministic. As mentioned, because careers are so long, the back end of your career is very non-linear, and lateraling is common and happens often, my favorite analogy that I will die on the hill of is many jobs are like colleges. If you land that GS/Blackstone/Centerview offer congrats! It's like getting into Harvard. A perfect storm of preparation, natural skill, and luck has given you a great opportunity. You might even have some opportunities that others don't have.
However, let's be very clear--I had a math teacher in highschool who went to Harvard and he loved to feed birds and teach highschool sophomore math. I am certain state school kids have had more impactful and financially prosperous careers than him. Much in the same way, don't doubt that a big 4 individual or someone who ended up in chemical engineering can't have a more prosperous career than someone who started their career at Goldman Sachs.
But perhaps more importantly, you guys are arguing and distressed over banks and perceived deal flow when basically everything on this forum is like debating between going to Duke versus Cornell or Notre Dame versus Michigan--virtually any of these jobs puts you in a position to lateral to anywhere if you are determined enough. Further, any of these jobs offer an unreal first job with exposure to finance that most people never even get close to.
As an additional hair splitting comment, I'm lucky enough in my career to have done transactions ranging from tiny Series B raises all the way to multi-billion dollar buyouts--they aren't that different. Take stock of this when evaluating opportunities--your world isn't defined by working at a bank or PE firm that does the biggest deals. Shit many people have created entire institutions targeting smaller transactions.
On-Cycle Advice
Recruit or don't it really doesn't matter and isn't worth losing sleep over. You need to know--any decision you make isn't really final. If you recruit, land a role, and hate it, you can leave within a year. If you don't recruit, those same firms will come knocking and you likely will make a better impression the next year and have stronger relationships at your current bank by staying longer. Heck, you might even be able to recruit a year late, then quit your IB job 6 months into your 3rd year, travel for 6 months and start at the PE firm fresh and ready to kick ass. I doubt that path is one you would regret when you are 40. Also know--the early nature of this year's process obviously is setting up many firms to pursue off-cycle opportunities, so there likely is going to be numerous high-quality at-bats throughout the year.
Further, much like IB, people leave PE positions all the time and offices expand, so off-cycle opportunities are more plentiful than you might think. One of my biggest surprises in IB was the number of crazy cool opportunities that seemed to come my way post on-cycle. Don't sweat this one and recognize you are in this for the long con, it will work out.
Goat, thank you. I try telling myself this when I wonder about re-recruiting out of IB / finance for FT, but it’s helpful to see it written so cogently.
This should be pinned to the top of the IB forum. Wise words boss.
Best post on this website in a while, thank you
Good post. What about GE made you choose it to build your career in? Currently doing some soul searching on my end and feel burnt out on most M&A/IB/PE but GE has always seemed interesting given it seems, on the surface and in general, less intense than traditional PE and more interesting given the work with younger companies (exceptions existing of course).
I wouldn’t think of it that way and would more think of it as an office culture question. Taking LMM PE as an example, I know some people who work with brilliant individuals and seem to have great office culture. I also know people who are getting ground to bits with poor office culture. As temping as it is to say, “GE, or buyout, is worse or better” I think the advice I would give is thinking about where your interest is then paying a ton of attention to the culture of the office.
For context too, my firm isn’t talked about on this forum, but is a great firm with fantastic returns, exposure, and very results driven culture. I can explain what I have done over the years and anyone senior in the space would be like, “well shit, this guy is real” even if they don’t know the name of my firm at first glance (since it is newer). This forum gets really myopic when considering exits and there are plenty of $800m- multi billion dollar funds running around doing very interesting work with likely better culture than a Permira/KKR type shop. Not to knock those shops either, because I do know some people who enjoy their experience at a large shop, but I also know others who really hate it. I also know factually, you can get significantly more responsibility, impact, and control of your life if you go to smaller funds since you have the ability to move the needle much more than being a Cog in a machine (much like a large investment bank).
If you go from one large firm (an IBank) where you are replaceable, insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and treated as disposable, and you go to another large firm where you are also all those things and are then surprised you don’t like your job, you played yourself. Of course large firm PE is going to treat you as disposable. You aren’t a key decision holder and you have a line of people ready to take your place at any second. Again, that still doesn’t mean you can’t learn a ton and that it can’t be a great path to HBS or just learning for several years, but it’s a little insane in my view to expect that a role isn’t going to be exactly like investment banking if it’s all ex-bankers, at a large company, where you aren’t a key decision maker, and there are new classes recruited with your exact skill set every year.
Agree with the above
Agree with the above
Really needed this. Thank you.
Tl;dr: Life is a marathon, not a sprint. Thanks captain obvious.
Thanks smog frog for your insight. You must be wise beyond your years to know this and also be able to put others down on an online forum. Thanks for contributing.
I really wanted a job closer to 60-70 hours with the ability to say, "Hey guys, this Thursday my Mom is in town, so I'm going to be OOO post 5pm, glad to work later wed or on Friday to makeup for that"
Out of curiosity what job did you land in the end?
It’s a unique growth/ VC shop. But if we are being truthful, this isn’t a job specific thing, it’s office specific and has to do with having good office culture and visibility of your work load and trust to manage timelines. This doesn’t mean that I’m like blowing off work at critical moments right—it just means that there’s actually realistic timelines and I have more control over my schedule. In fairness, some of this just naturally occurs as you get more responsibility and seniority, but it’s also something to think about as you plan your career and the future.
How did you vet the shop to know that the culture/work better aligned with what you were looking for?
I am convinced these sorts of positions exist in banking too. Just not at large banks.
Bingo. Shit, even really great teams that operate independently can be pretty great. That said, the customer service aspect of IB really just makes it difficult to really have control of your life.
Outstanding post. Agree, should be pinned. There are topics here at least once a week that this would address
Very helpful content
Great post
Thank you appreciate this! Will be in IB next year but was able to make it coming from an underprivileged background. I have the mentality that since I come from a low socio-economic background I am willing to take shit. Furthermore, I also come from a where I am expected to support my family financially (immigrant background).
I personally think that I am approaching this wrong, where I know that at some point maybe not in the near term maybe later in life i will lose my shit. So i guess, taking into consideration of my background what is the best way you advise I approach the next 5-10 years.
As repetitive as my words are going to sound: thank you for speaking out about it when anxiety spiraled during the on-cycle decision.
One thing I definitely feel strongly about is how non-linear a career is. Just set a plan, make a goal, and catch whatever opportunity comes your way. I never would've imagined the seat I am sitting rn, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Sometimes sticking to the artificial timeline could pigeonhole a person and make one overlook what opportunities there are. Acknowledging it takes away the unnecessary anxiety.
It’s not just the non-linear thing, it’s the fact that people are completely missing the fact that a path where you go to shop you hate for a year or stay at a bank for 3 years versus 2 isn’t a bad decision, it’s just different and gave you alternate information. From my view, often taking a more winding path is actually better since you learn about alternatives and build conviction in where your ultimate destination is. A great example:
A person who goes IB —> MM PE > Megafund PE didn’t waste a year or two doing MM PE, they learned what makes MM PE different from a megafund. They then at 40 are able to reflect on the two experiences and make more educated decision making. I’d actually argue a brilliant strategy is intentionally winding, so that you can be a more complete and holistic investor.
Couldn't agree more. At the end of the day, life/alternative paths are not rankable. They are different at most, not better/worse.
When there is a topic of diversity, I always think in this way: I will rather have a team of investor/consultant/trader who are coming from different background--no matter it is career wise or personal wise--it's so much easier for a team to fall for the same pitfall if everyone come from the same path, for example, of IB-PE-MBA.
Did you break in the summer following your senior year
Did you break in the summer following your senior year
Great advice. the point on sleep felt super relatable to me. did an IB internship, felt like a zombie every single day on 4 hours sleep.
switched to MBB full time, I'm doing M&A work, sleeping 8 hours and getting 1-2 workouts in during the week on lighter nights, and I feel great and love the job.
sure its a pay cut, but that cut is WELL WORTH IT to have the flexibility to feel mentally healthy and enjoy my job
Since more perspective is needed on this point too—consulting is great and I never did it. Jamie “daddy” Dimon worked in consulting at the start of his career. Plenty of PE professionals do consulting prior and plenty of people I know stayed in consulting or had amazing careers from consulting even later going to hedge funds, large PE shops etc. There have been a few topics that imply consulting is somehow worse or that it’s hard to recruit and that just hasn’t been what I have observed anecdotally. All that said, I like the skill set I developed in banking :).
Can I PM you?
Great post - went through a lot of the same stuff although at different stages of my career - lots of very wise words there
IDK about y'all, but I'm wishing I had just stayed on "The path". Didn't get the return at this huge passive AM firm, struggling to look for alternatives, so I won't be doing anything next summer. And all i can think about is how would stuff be different if i had just taken the "the path" instead of trying to cut towards what I really want to do. Doesn't help that I only started applying to things after not getting the return and now i feel worse than ever. Everyone else already has something for next summer and I'm the one left naked. FML
Taking the other side and the point of this post, if you really think that, look for roles close to IB like corporate finance, or big 4, and lateral into IB. Once you get that IB position you will appreciate it more. Also, if your first job isn’t IB, you likely will have more time to personally develop, mature, and grow a social circle. Also, if you are talking about roles for next summer, there are still so many great opportunities out there.
Keep applying to jobs. You'll be happier with your position a year from now if you have something on your resume vs having nothing. Apply to anything that seems relevant/semi-relevant. I saw I missed the boat one year and I more or less gave up on a summer like you're considering and I regret it. I did keep applying to some jobs but only barely and I started with a defeatist attitude. Don't do that. Chin up and keep applying
Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for taking the time to post this. We do need more of these messages to help balance the neurotic group-think that can dominate.
Great post.
Wise, prescient and something every person starting out should read.
Great post but I really want to come in here and play devils advocate. For context, I’m an older (almost 30) IB analyst who served in the military prior to going to college and starting my career Wall Street.
I know exactly what being on a “tracked” or “pathed” career looks like and I can tell you with absolutely certainty that 1) It’s great and reduces the amount of stress someone with major ambitions will feel while they progress through their career 2) Many of our parents and ESPECIALLY our grandparents (those who were straight white males of course, obviously historically speaking the workplace was worse for women and minorities) enjoyed them and as I result, in my opinion, were able to lead happy and healthy lives and 3) it’s FUCKING BULLSHIT that we don’t get that same privilege despite the fact that the world, the economy and our own EDUCATION AND ABILITY are all better and instead we have to feel replaceable and thus insecure about our professional and economic well being with the only options of escape to be 1) earn enough fuck you money (personally dependent) to buy yourself out of this shit or 2) conjure enough knowledge, prestige and POWER to thwart any persons or institutions efforts to fuck with our livelyhood.
This is all to say that this is why this forum and everyone on it are obsessed with “The Path” and rushing to the finish line. Nothing is guaranteed anymore except for the fact that you could very much wake up at age 25 or 30 and realize that opportunities have actually passed for you in this career because unlike other, normal careers, PE firms, head funds and even investment banks to a degree are culturally unwilling to accommodate junior level employees who want families and lives. Top Buyside exists for example seemingly want 23 year old associates with zero responsibilities outside of work. Not A to As or god forbid post MBA associates who are now in their late 20s and are considering getting married. Now I personally haven’t had this problem, I get a pass because I’m a Vet and haven’t technically been in the private sector long, but I do know several competent analysts and associates who can’t get good looks because their seen as too institutionalized now.
Most without very strong networks and credentials will simply lose out on the best opportunities by taking their sweet time and stopping to smell the roses in this career, unlike others, and it sucks. That’s why people are obsessed with the rushing down the “The Path” instead of savoring the journey to become comfortable with where they are in life and what their doing, incrementally, to forge a path forward.
Great post, and I can only confirm it from my own experiences (bounced around A LOT before finding my current role which is great). In the end, your career is your responsibility, you cannot outsource it to someone else, but fight for every single piece of ground. Also, The Path is only really possible for highly conscientious, neurotypical men from a solid upper middle class background - which I am not, and most are not either. But fighting is fun, honestly. Sure, getting beaten in the face hurts, but chasing a goal can be so damn exciting, and reaching for it will transform you in ways you've never thought possible. So, non-targets, fellow autists, assorted weirdos and goobers - enjoy the journey, and keep fighting.
What if I’m a senior in college looking to break in, with no offer right now? Appreciate all the words just feels I’m in a bad spot
What if I’m a senior in college looking to break in, with no offer right now? Appreciate all the words just feels I’m in a bad spot
What if I’m a senior in college looking to break in, with no offer right now? Appreciate all the words just feels I’m in a bad spot
You aren’t really. Here’s why:
Careers and your personal life have trade-offs. I’m not going to lie, not getting an IB offer you might make less your first year out of school than kids in IB would. However, instead you likely will find a job somewhere else where you have significantly more free time. As a result, you might date and meet the girl/boy you will marry, you might develop a hobby that you live or, or you might just have unforgettable memories that make not working 100+ hours alright in the end.
If you realize you really do want to break into IB, you can try to find a job for less competitive positions, still do part of the above, and put some extra leg work into recruiting or lateraling into positions that best set you up to move into IB.
Look, I know plenty of people who did IB hated it and then left finance entirely. I also had MBA associates who did wealth management or accounting roles for 5 years, did their MBA, then they entered IB. Careers are often reactive, you work somewhere that isn’t for you then you make a life decision weighing it against the personal impact it will have. You aren’t in a bad spot, you are starting the journey of iterating on where you professionally belong. In the scheme of things, you have had 1 at bat and there are still 9 innings with numerous batters, you aren’t even close to getting going.
Thanks so much for advice man. I have IB internships but no full time offers rn so maybe one will convert. That’s good perspective
Did you start out in IB? If so was it a name brand or was it a LMM boutique?
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