Question for senior bankers - does it get more or less stressful as you progress?
Life as a junior banker can definitely suck since you're at the bottom of the totem pole/work the most hours, but I'm starting to think it's actually way more stressful as a senior banker. My job is pretty straightforward - take guidance from seniors and execute.
But senior bankers are responsible for actually sourcing the deals...and the way the business model works you're incentivized to push any deal through to scoop up a fee. I've been part of so many pitches where it was obvious that we're just throwing bullshit at a wall hoping something sticks lol.
With that said, I can only imagine how stressful it must be to go through a dry spell where you haven't inked any deals in a while, you have a family and mortgage to pay for, and you absolutely need to get a deal across in order to support your family and way of life.
Idk just something I've been thinking about recently. Do the upsides outweigh this stress dynamic? Have you found the salesperson/client-facing aspect to be much more fun and fulfilling? Any perspectives from senior bankers would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
There are very few senior bankers on this forum but yes it does get more stressful as you progress for the reasons you mentioned
More. At the jr level you’re just doing what other people tell you to do. No matter how long or painful or annoying, you’re following orders. There is a peace to that. You could also quit or get fired and have 10 jobs tomorrow bc you are smart and your labor is cheap, even if you don’t think so.
VP years are hard as you live in a purgatory bt being further from the work but equally responsible for it being right. I thought VP was the hardest in many ways
MD is different. Your effort can increase your chances of success, but you have no direct control over whether or not you’re successful. No amount of hours or accuracy of models or even “brilliant” ideas serve as evidence that I am good at my job. It is 100% about revenue (as a coverage banker anyway).
And lifestyle wise, I’m not at the office until 2am, but I’m on a 6am flight, doing a few meetings / calls and then on a 6pm flight home. Oh and on the flight I have to look at that book that came earlier, and I know you’re waiting on me tor comments on the other book for next week…and the longer it takes me the longer it takes you and then we end up in a jam job… and we’re going to do that all over again in a few days.
Second this. Great post.
VP was my hardest years by far.
MD but types like a 18-24 year old zoomers.
Almost like my job has me in constant contact with people under 30
100% my husband is a Director in banking and as a banker you are only as good as the deals/clients you bring in.
Banks will always prioritize the high performers
I'm not in banking anymore but I can tell you that as an exec, it is always more stressful, but a different kind of stress.
Stress as a junior is very immediate, spiking kind of stress, where you have a very tight deadline to do something, do it right, and you get chewed out if you get it wrong but likely won't lose your job, unless you really eff up.
Stress as a senior is more of a simmering kind of stress, because there is more autonomy but also there is a constant pressure to deliver. If you are a junior and you magically get no comments, no requests, then you can sit there knowing that you are not doing anything wrong. As a senior, you are on the hook to bring in business, grow the company, improve efficiency. No one is telling you how or what to do, that's what they are paying you the big bucks to figure out! There is always something you could be doing to add value. You cannot just sit around all day, because not only is your livelihood dependant on you delivering results, most likely other peoples' livelihoods depend on you as well. If a deal blows up as a junior because of some external event, well shucks you did your job to the best of your ability. But if you're a senior, now you have to fill that gap with new business. No excuses will be made for you.
That constant, simmering pressure and stress can lead to real long-term health impacts.
What did you do before becoming an exec?
Not judging, but I’d say (very unscientifically) that at least half of all MD level stress is due to lifestyle creep / COL.
Mid career perspective. Probably half my MD tenure done, another half to go. Group head, but want / feel j can do and be more.
Is this less stressful than earlier, I don’t know. It certainly doesn’t need to be. I’m well sorted for money and in the important ways life is very good. But I’m also a type a / go getter who always feels I can do better.
Life as an analyst was hard but never stressful. Life as an associate was super chill (a/a). I hated being a VP and probably a Director even more. Life as a run of the mill MD was surprisingly unstressful (did my deals, had fun, got paid). Now, it cuts both ways,
Business stresses are different from what to OP says. It’s not about the desperation of winning a deal or your life is over or some other “death of salesman” nonsense. If you’re in a MD seat in a BB bank, your institution does 75% of the work for you and it’s all about building or losing relative market share and your comp is only tangentially revenue driven. Of course, how you do in that context will determine your career progression but it’s not that desperate. If you’re lucky enough to be a partner at an independent advisory firm, then one would hope you have enough long term clients to not be desperate. My best clients, I probably kill 9/10 deals we talk about but maintaining long term client relationships is serious business and stressful. You have to give the right advice, never overpromise, always deliver what you do promise and execute well but at the same time be more creative and proactive than the competitions. This should stress out the best bankers.
Management is always stressful. Bankers at all levels are complicated, high strung, egotistical, and often entitled - managing them, retaining them, getting them paid well (while managing their often ridiculous expectations), aligning incentives while building a team culture is seriously hard work. Not to mention avoiding the regulatory, reputational and HR pitfalls that are a feature of modern life.
It’s also seriously competitive out there - turn away for one second and Goldman, Moelis and Jefferies are at my throats.
But the mixed bag is that all of these stresses are why I love my job. I enjoy advising clients whether they are entrepreneurs, sponsors or corporates and building successful long term outcomes together, and view it as a privilege that they trust me to advise them. I like much of my team and it’s also a privilege partnering and mentoring them. And I love nothing more than beating the competition. So all the things that stress me out keep me going and while it doesn’t get less stressful, you have to assess whether you enjoy the job or not.
Finally, one point - life in general gets stressful as you get older for two inexorable reasons, kids and older parents. I have a great family life but am quite a traditionalist and raising mentally healthy, happy kids in the tik tok era is stressful. And parents inevitably age and change. I see a lot of people here write as if they have the weight of the world on your shoulders. You don’t. I don’t question the importance of trying to excel (and it would be very hypocritical) but the beauty of being young is you have time to screw up or fail and still recover. God knows I did. I’ve been suspended, been laid off, been fired and I was able to bounce back. That in itself should be the most destressing thing of all for the young.
Now that you're halfway through your tenure as MD, can I ask from your perspective what you are working towards now? Is it just money, or is it ambition to go higher even still? Or also for the love of the game? Reason I ask is, so much of our early and mid career including college is about working towards the next thing then the next thing. Therefore I'm curious what it's like once you've reached the perceived pinnacle. What drives you everyday?
He literally said why he enjoys the job and that he’s a type a who feels he can do more
I almost caveated that it would be different if I was at a bulge bracket, where you’re in everyone’s facility so they have to talk to you, and will throw you on a bond deal. But I’m at an “elite boutique” in the parlance of this board.
Agree on the competition. I did a stint on the client side, which was interesting being on the other side of the table, but enlightening bc I saw just how commoditized IB is. Maybe a couple of groups I thought were notably not good, but everyone else firmly lumped together. It’s about relationships and fee far more often than it’s about differentiated knowledge.
Do you recommend directors to get external offers to get promoted to MD? Ie trying to get an MD offer elsewhere when you are director 3/ 4 or failing that use an offer to negotiate with your current firm? How do you think about this strategy working?
If you were at a bulge bracket, you wouldn’t have anywhere near the same comp upside. I have this conversation with my MDs whenever they say “Joe at BofA got paid $1.75mm in a year where he barely produced”.
That said, I agree in the so called “EB” model, the real rewards accrue to top and the average Joe MD is better off at a BB. There are few layers of hell worse than being a regular MD (not SMD) at Evercore, PWP or PJT, and you kind of have the be a top 50% SMD at Evercore, top 25% MD at Laz or Moelis, etc to reap the benefits.
As a current mid-VP at an EB in coverage, would you recommend staying here or moving to BB if I'm intent on being a long-term banker?
I've wrestled with the question of whether I should do my best and trust the process in my EB vs. going to a BB and getting the help of the brand and bank, but potentially risking my career from wrestling with the politics and BS.
I've been struggling with this question for a few weeks. I'm very curious how you view this decision.
You sound like the kind of guy I would like to work for, but I'd rather do PE
Can I please ask why you hated being a VP / Director (I'm essentially between the two).
This might be down to my bank, in which case I should take it less for granted. But I actually think it's the best in some ways. I have much more control over my time, which I appreciate versus being an Analyst, and with the right communication with my MD, I can avoid a significant amount of last-minute squeezes. On the revenue-generation side, nobody is "expecting" me to generate P&L, but I have the freedom to reach out to clients and start meetings, and if I do bring something in, I get high fives (rather than being held accountable for not bringing in deals).
Sure, I need to execute deals and if I'm staffed with bad juniors, lazy VPs from another team, or an awful client, it's painful, but that's not too differentiated versus other seniority levels.
State of the Union. Thanks for sharing.
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Life gets harder as you get older. You just learn to accept more bullshit.
Much more stressful. Getting yelled at by clients is nothing like being yelled at by your VP/MD. Also imagine constantly worrying about being able to pay your employees or subordinates. Or breaking your leg and not being able to attend meetings for two months which just fall apart without you - no one would notice an analyst missing from a meeting but seniors is another story.
when you say 'break a leg' to your MD as he goes into a pitch and he takes it seriously and fires you on the spot 💀
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