How do Non targets interview at good banks?

They didn't have the connections to the BBs that the target kids did and had to work twice as hard to get in. If you were a senior banker who had to choose between the intelligent Yalie who relied on the prestige of his school to get in and the equally intelligent Indiana kid who has a chip on his shoulder and is willing to bust his ass to prove his worth, which would you choose?

ultra trader=ultra douche

^ that's right, and also, it doesn't take an Ivy League degree to use Excel.

Also - You have to take into account those kids who attend non-target schools for reasons other than academics (ie Varsity Athletes looking to compete in a real conference). Secondly, there are plenty of capable bankers/traders/salespeople from Non-Targets who may have family/friend connections at the bank.

would take a hungry kid over a Yalie any day of the week

ultratrader89 I see that you go to Duke and I have a question for you.

ultratrader89I mean, if they cut hiring it would make sense to fill an entire class with say, 20 harvard, 20 yale, 20 princeton, 20 duke, 20 columbia, etc.

If BBs are cutting hiring doesn't it make even more sense just to recruit from HYP. I am sure that they could fill an entire class of analysts with just HYP kids. Why bother with the rest?

PS. I am not from HYP

I go to a non-target. I've interned at a HF, major insurance firm and am set to intern with a BB PWM. You're right to say that Ivy/Top Schools produce more smarter students than non-targets, but there are people at non-targets who want banking just as bad if not more than some snobby Ivy League dbag. Doesn't really matter where you go, its all about that inner fire and thirst to prove yourself that'll impress people and make them want to hire you.

Ultratrader....your a fucking douche. Your pedigree will carry you to a degree, but one day you will wake-up and realize that it is those with a relentless drive and people skills are the real rainmakers. Maybe you will become a lifelong banker and eventually rise to MD, but to move higher you need much more than that. The guys that are Presidents of divisions or Co-Heads of M&A have intangibles that don't come with a degree from an ivy.

I didn't even need to look at your profile to tell that you're from Duke.

Yeah everyone at an ivy league school is wealthy, snobby, and has mad networking connections they didn't work for.

Forget about the minority kid with financial aid who worked hard in HS while all his friends slang dope. or the asian kid that studied like a hermit 23/7 while you fools played your xboxes. Or just the middle-class kid who worked hard and sacrificed.

I mean just look at the avg. SAT ranges. You can't get those with money and snobbery. Of course there are exceptions but (exceptions)=!(rule) -> and thats an understatement.

It's just stupid to think that ivy league= not hungry. I mean look how they got there- you have to be &$@$&*( hungry to make it past the low admit rates. In fact MOST of the ppl in my school who want to be in finance know MORE finance before taking a single class than the seniors majoring in busadmin at the state school I transferred from. They actually sit and read finance textbooks, papers, journals, review accounting rules, whatever, etc.

I feel that non-targets don't realize the competition out there. They think they know about fixed income than their group of buddies and that means they should be working on goldman prop...

Also, the fact that you have Duke on there instead of Penn / Wharton shows just how clueless you are.

ANY school not in the top 25 is UTTER EPIC FAIL

The kids from penn state that do get into Goldman Sachs front office are incredible and are probably kids who got into Duke, but chose not to go. Goldman's recruiting process is credible and rigorous enough to filter out the brilliant people from non-targets and the brilliant people from targets. While typically 80-90% of the brilliant people do come from targets, they realize that 10%-20% go to state schools and so they want to give these kids a chance. Ultimately, all these firms are trying to do is grab the best damn people they can get. I also agree with Philosopher that it's probably not right to say that ivy league kids are not hungry. A good proportion of my high school buddies are at ivy leagues and these guys are not snobby, but incredibly hard working and intelligent. Some of them knew more finance in high school than a junior or senior studying econ/finance at college.

ultratrader89I mean, if they cut hiring it would make sense to fill an entire class with say, 20 harvard, 20 yale, 20 princeton, 20 duke, 20 columbia, etc.

Duke and Columbia are such outliers on this list.

PhilosopherForget about the minority kid with financial aid who worked hard in HS while all his friends slang dope.

Slinging rock is HARD FUCKING WORK. And don't pretend for a second that good schools don't have dealers either, because I know plenty at both state schools and ivys.

This discussion reminds me of a nytimes article (link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/15/business/15goldman.html) where it is mentioned that Goldman picks up "diamonds in the rough from state universities". Kind of funny.

But really I think it is extremely naive to believe that students from the top few schools are just well connected and get into every bank that way. The competition is pretty cut throat at these schools as well. When companies like McKinsey and Goldman come for campus interviews at my school (a HYPS) they consistently get 400-500 applications for 50ish interview slots (I've talked to our career office about this). Just getting an interview is competitive, and this is among a bunch of students that have (generally) demonstrated superior academic ability than the vast majority of state school/non-target types. There are always exceptions to rules, but I think there's a lot of merit to going to the top few schools to fill out the majority of your analyst class because the colleges themselves have done a lot of filtering for the companies already. Goldman/Mckinsey/etc's job is much easier at HYPS than it is at a state school with 50K people most of which are noob.

Agree with Big Mike on everything. Thats why the 1 or 2 state school kids have to go to go to BBs, rather than wait for those firms to come to them.

Actually, I've noticed that non-targest seem to have this stupid idea that its all about connections, because thats how most non-targets that get in manage to do so. Its sad when I see so many non-targets not willing to kill themselves working but expecting to get ahead of HYPSCMs woh already have an inherent advantage and are willing to GGODT (get goldman or die trying)

So how competitive is it for the non-target kids? Assuming you have a solid connection at the bank, how tough is it to get first round interviews, and then move on from there? How about for SA positions?

laughs at how douchey this post is

I am a non-target that has had interviews with: Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers, JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse, Barclays ... and more..

interned at two of those places (sophomore and junior year) and just accepted a full time at one of those places (start 2010).

I have to admit it pisses me off that people think target kids are snobby or get it through connections. The way I think about it though is: it's just a fucking job, it doesn't mean shit. I don't care if someone is from a non target as long as they prove to me that they're smart.

ultratrader89Why not just do that and have a very very strong impressive class to show clients

I highly doubt that the pedigrees of the guys carrying the pitchbooks and cranking out the excel models really matter to clients...

And to answer OP's question, same reason why NFL teams don't just draft players from the big schools and conferences, pedigree doesn't guarantee skills/success/intangibles/etc. It would be quite idiotic to assume that all the best candidates for a very narrow profile can be found at small sub-set institutions.

I'm not trying to flame you guys. why is it this is so controversial? Get off your high horses, its a simple question.

About your nfl analogy, that's because you don't need to be smart to play a sport? Also, athletic ability is very easily tested by playing a game. you can't tell if someone is going to be an AWESOME BANKER just from a 30 minute interview.

i would just think that if a firm was very selective and took only ivy leagues, that clients would be impressed and be more likely to work with that firm. I'm not hating on nontargets, heck the BB's sometimes have 30-50% of their class as non-Top 20 schools. Schools like BC and Wake Forest are even targets sometimes so chill out.

is every client an ivy grad? I am not impressed by how many ivy's we have on our desk and no one else is either

The two best (and smartest) analysts in my group are non-targets. I'd say that right there is a pretty good reason to take a chance on a few non-targets each year.