IBD SA HK: BAML vs DB vs Nomura vs UBS
Hi guys,
I received offers or waiting to hear back about superday results from the above places for the positions. A bit background about myself, I am a junior year student, and just looking to get as much deal exp as I can.
Does anyone in HK or worked in HK have an opinion on which shop to go to? I hear that BAML is very strong in HK - is this correct intel?
Thank you very much guys!
UBS and DB are doing well but BAML hands down. Haven't heard too much about Nomura (could just be me so do your own due diligence on their deaflow)
ap.dealogic.com/ - my reference
Thanks for your reply - any chance you could expand on why BAML hands down?
Given the odd timing of this, I am assuming you are an aussie student?
It's a slow day so I'll give you my take:
First, I'd take out Nomura. Not doing very well lately, and I know people that do not like the culture.
By "Deal Experience" I assume you mean M&A deal experience? But don't forget cap markets experience is very important in HK, especially if you end up in an industry or country group (most likely).
For ECM/DCM: UBS = DB > BAML
For China coverage: UBS > BAML = DB
For Greater China IBD reputation: UBS >> BAML = DB
For Overseas/US IBD reputation: BAML > DB >> UBS
For HK Office Location (don't laugh): BAML = UBS > DB
For M&A: Don't bother ranking. And don't use league tables. They fluctuate year to year so much that they tell you nothing. Each team will keep you more than busy enough. BAML topped the tables last year, but keep in mind they fought to announce the biggest deal of the year on Dec 31.
Thanks for this - that's really helpful. So you're basically saying UBS > DB/BAML unless I want to go overseas, in which case BAML would be good?
And yes I am an aussie student with all my weird timing.
Unless there's a big difference in culture I think it's between UBS/BAML, but not terribly clear cut since DB is a great platform too. If you don't want to leave APAC, I think you should choose between UBS/BAML (depending on how you feel about the people you met). If you want to leave APAC or care about what professionals outside APAC think, choose BAML. UBS is a powerhouse in Australia and China (arguably top 3 in both regions reputation-wise), but honestly its US franchise pretty much put an end to its global reputation.
I work in the mainland right now, and the top 3 banks (touted almost like a mantra) are "GS, MS, UBS". Same perception carries over to HK within the China coverage/mainland circles. If you asked this question a few years ago, the answer would've immediately been UBS - they dominated for a long time before. Nowadays, other banks like BAML and DB are doing quite well too, so it's not super clear cut.
I understand that BAML has a strong debt platform in China though given that they have their balance sheet and all.
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Agree with majority of what dubyawhy said -
UBS is still a powerhouse but hasn't kept their momentum up, especially with major senior figures leaving the banks especially already in this year. Always follow the rainmakers, not the banks. I'm not saying that this is a direct correlation but the example I'll give is purely out of coincidence. UBS LA was by and large the premier group in not just the west coast, but across the U.S during the 2000's...until their MD's left due to conflicts with senior management. From that, Moelis was born and the rest is history..including UBS' current position in the U.S.
To reiterate, I'm not saying UBS is done in Asia. UBS LA is purely a coincidence and its just the best example I can think of when it comes to recognizing the power of those who actually lead the banks and not the firm in itself.
In your case, I'm just saying that when senior bankers start leaving a powerhouse, you have to wonder why and not jump in head first especially in your case where you have other legitimate options that rival UBS i.e. BAML (think back to recent largest/headline grabbing deals in Asia Pacific, esp. China, can guarantee BAML's been in most of them)
What I don't exactly agree with dubyawhy is neglecting league tables. don't take it at face value when you assess options obviously but its still an extremely important evaluation metric..especially when you list quantitative factors like ECM/DCM, China coverage activity which I hope you got your information from actual deal flow activity reports
lol as far as location, its funny how people dont assess it but it makes a significant difference so good for dubyawhy to bring it up. its essentially central (baml, ubs) vs. kowloon (DB), take your pick. if you like getting wasted and chasing pretty girls in LKF/wanchai and not have to take a lengthier and more expensive commute, central's for you. unless of course you prefer the seedier and "easiest" way of picking up girls, mongkok is not far away from the ICC
to each his own! hope that helps, all the best with your decision. feel free to PM me at anytime
Maybe I should reiterate what I said about league tables...
Tables are useful if you: - Look at number of deals, as this will directly influence how much execution you do vs pitching. Execution and modeling at the analyst level won't differ a huge amount for a 500M deal vs a 4BN deal. - Look at average deal size as opposed to full deal value, if possible - Look at fees generated as opposed to transaction value, where possible - Look at 2012/2013/2014 in combination. Do not look at the 2015 figures yet because the year isn't over.
To make it simple:
Geography: Do you plan to base your professional future around China? Whether it be moving there, dealing with Chinese clients etc. If yes, easy win to UBS. They still have a lot of clout over there, significantly more than the other 2 banks.
Do you want to have a platform that is solid and respected anywhere in the world (besides Africa)? Easy win to BAML. Although DB is comparable, it has always been rather unremarkable.
Products: M&A is a tossup. But if you want to do ECM, UBS is a superior platform in APAC. BAML isn't even on the ECM radar as of late. If you want to do DCM, the opposite is true.
Wow this has been really insightful - thanks for the advice. I want to eventually move to work in NYC so I guess I'll go with BAML as the preferred option and focus more on the debt side.
thanks again for the insight
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