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I assume English isn't your primary language? Or are you just so desperate to feel morally superior to someone that you physically reject the evidence in front of your face? Because I expressed a "smidgen" of empathy. I offered my thoughts and prayers. What more do you want? I thought and think Charlie Kirk was a pathetic troll. That doesn't mean he deserved to die, or even be threatened with violence, and it certainly doesn't mean I think his family deserves what they're going through. But someone who was very clear that he thought people being murdered was a reasonable price to pay so that he could own a gun, isn't someone who I think deserves more sympathy than anyone else should get in the same circumstance.
What more would you like? I mean that honestly. As I've said elsewhere on this thread, what words or deeds do you think would be appropriate beyond the same "thoughts and prayers" that get thrown at every tragedy? Personally, I think this and the many, many other acts of political violence we've seen recently should spur a long conversation about the ease of access to firearms, and the violent political rhetoric that has become normalized in recent years. It would obviously be ironic if the death of the man who thought people being murdered by guns was a "prudent deal" for the right to carry was the motivating factor for stricter gun control, but that's about the only thing left to say or do in response to the umpteenth incident of murder-by-firearm we've seen.
I appreciate the offer. I can reciprocate by offering you some ESL resources, so in the future, when you read a post in which you see modifying words like "excessively sad" you can interpret them and not jump to unwarranted conclusions.
He is right, Kirk once said in an interview that if around 2,000 deaths per year happen because of the Second Amendment, “be it so, and that’s a cost we have to live with”. So what surprises me is that his supporters applauded that argument i.e., 2000 deaths per year, but now are mourning 1 death?
I mean, you had 2,000 people, including children, dying and that was just a "social cost" in his view, but his death is a huge tragedy? This makes me remember Stalin saying that the death of a man is a tragedy, but the death of millions just statistics (so I hope now his supporters can understand how much a life is worth and how "2000" isn't just statistics, but 2,000 are just 2,000 Charlie Kirks around the US every year).
Will also add that Trump's shot on top of Kirk's does raises some political prejudices that the left might indeed rely on violence (which is quite a real pattern across communism in history), so I get the political message that the right is sending after this attack. People who say that "he deserved it"on the left also need to be held accountable. But again, to mourn his death to this degree and make an entire upraising while disregarding his argument that "yeah, whatever, let others die as long as we keep the 2nd Amendment" is just hypocrisy from his fanbase.
His death, the death of those 2000 "costs", and of the other children who die because of guns, all deserve to be mourned the same. The real issue is when such death is used as fuel to push more hate to the liberals/democrats as a whole group, and polarize the country even more, instead of just acknowledging that it was a hate/political crime carried by 1 (or 2-3 guys) and from here let the FBI do their work. There isn't much talk to be done beyond this. There is no controversy.
You say there's not much to discuss, but you still have plenty to say and that's good.
Not sure why WSO can't just let people talk.
Well I meant there isn't much to discuss in terms of Mr Kirk's murder. He's dead, I think we all hope his murderer is swiftly brought to justice, we offer the same trite "thoughts and prayers" that get offered during every tragedy, and we move on and nothing changes. The only way to stop future murders like this from happening is to try and tone down the violence of political rhetoric, and to vastly restrict the sale of firearms. It would be ironic if that happened, because if Mr Kirk stood for anything, it was inflammatory language and defending the widest possible access to firearms.
I think a lot of people on here want to feel morally superior to liberals for once, and this feels like an opportunity they can exploit by pretending that having an opinion other than chest-beating, tooth-gnashing outrage and sorrow over Mr Kirk's murder is somehow equivalent to cheering his death.
"There isn't much to discuss"
Proceeds to type an opinionated paragraph to incite discussion, and is also replying to many comments on this post
I thought most people would be literate enough to pick up from context that there isn't much to discuss in terms of his death or anything surrounding it.
There is a lot to discuss when it comes to bad faith conservatives making shit up in the comments so they can feel morally superior for once.
But nuance is hard. I get it.
Not much to discuss? It's not like there is widespread glee about a murder on the internet or something.
Well, that tracks. Just like the widespread glee when the police or a Klansman guns down a black person. Or a liberal state lawmaker.
Charlie Kirk was a troll, and people are assholes. I don't think he or anyone else should be murdered for their beliefs, and I don't think anyone should celebrate a murder, but as I said earlier, Charlie Kirk was a martyr to what he believed in - that people need to die in order to protect the right to bear arms.
Nothing discussed on the WSO Off Topic forum is important to society
I'm convinced Ozymandia has burner accounts boosting their posts because I can't imagine such an egregious take getting 5+ SBs. We don't even know if the shooter could've legally owned a gun at this point. It's disgusting to say this early on when we don't know all the details that Charlie got what he deserved and we shouldn't "mourn that excessively." Even if the shooter did legally carry, the fact that this is your take after seeing a young guy with a family get publicly executed is, frankly, disgusting.
And why did the comments rightfully calling for that trash account to be banned get removed?
Because I didn't say anything disrespectful, inaccurate, or harmful?
My comment was not even calling for his comment to be removed. It was simply saying that I'm going to conceal carry because of incidents like this and that it's disrespectful to say that we shouldn't be sad over the death of anyone.
What's really disgusting is having so little of a point to make, that you put words in someone's mouth so you have something, anything, to attack.
I didn't say he "got what he deserved." No one deserves to be shot, for any reason, which I expressed as clearly as the English language permits.
What I said, or rather what Mr Kirk himself said, is that we should expect people to be murdered by guns every year, because that's the price of liberty. Since only a complete piece of shit would think that other people deserved to die so they could tote a gun around, I gave Mr Kirk the benefit of the doubt and assumed he'd be okay with being the victim that allows everyone to have as many firearms as they please.
My take was that the Kirk family should have all of our thoughts and prayers. That's what we say when bad things happen, right? What else is there to say? I mean that - what possible action, words, or consequences would you like to see or hear? Hopefully the murderer will be caught, and punished appropriately. Beyond that... people die. The man who said "It's worth it to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year, so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights...That is a prudent deal" is a man who I think would be more pleased than most to be martyred to that cause.
It's completely immaterial whether the murderer legally owned or not.
I mean sadly I think that there are enough callous and heartless people on the Left to give him that many bananas. It's also the reason that these shootings are happening......a lot of people think that if you have a certain political view, then you deserve to die.
Yep, people on both sides of the aisle believe that. People will always believe that, because some people just suck, and they're found in every demographic slice you can dream up.
I've offered, sincerely, the same good will that people on the political right offer when there is a tragedy. Thoughts and prayers, and a hope that the perpetrator of the violence is brought to justice. What more are you looking for? You seem to think that's inadequate, or that my expressing that view is somehow not enough.
Also, any encouragement of political violence will always lead to political violence the other way round. It's absolutely absurd that people are celebrating what could be the beginning of broader political violence which has never ended well.
Goddamn Republicans are snow flakes. Most easily offended people out there. Sorry some of us don’t have much sympathy for Charlie Kirk or whatever other reaction you want. Thoughts and prayers for sure, but he’s just another one of many people killed by gun violence every year. Regrettable, but certainly not something I’d lose sleep over. This guy was no martyr.
Meanwhile, I’m convinced you’re a pedophile
Lmao that's not what those comments originally said. They were taken down by mods and then put back up but modified. No clue what WSO is doing here.
I agree Isaiah. I've been fairly politically moderate over the past 10 years I've been old enough to vote. I've voted for democrats, republicans, and libertarians. I'm not religious and have always taken a pragmatic approach to politics and have always valued individual civil freedom and economic freedom.
Personally, I think I'm completely done with the left now. After 2 attempts on a presidential candidate, leftist lunatics k*****g kids, and now assassinating someone for wanting to hold public discussions and have public debate, I think it's been made abundantly clear over the last year or two who the "bad guys" are in the world, and I can't in good conscious, as a father and a husband, support anyone on the left anymore.
Disagree all you want, I'm fully prepared to get MS for this post, but the recent momentum the right has been gaining is going to increase after this. Yesterday was a bad day for free speech, for open discussion, and for America. I thought many of Kirk's views were too far to the right, but you can't dislike the guy for doing what he did, holding open discussions in public and inviting the other side to debate.
And why are you assuming that it's someone "on the left" doing any or all of this? Why is it now that you're drawing a line, and not when people on the right engage in political violence (or rather, when people on the left are targeted?).
Your entire take makes no sense and has no basis in fact or logic. You simply want an excuse to demonize people you don't like, and feel morally superior about it. Which is your prerogative, but... don't come here expecting applause. I mean, it's WSO, so maybe you should, but not from rational people
Why was it a bad day for free speech? Don't you think you're assuming a little too much? Personally I agree that it's likely Mr Kirk was murdered for his political views, but there isn't a single shred of evidence for that yet.
As I said, your entire take seems like an excuse to blame "the left" for something. For all we know, Mr Kirk was killed because he slept with someone's wife. I don't think that's likely, but I also think it's inappropriate to start lamenting free speech and open discussion. The last several months have been nothing but an attack on free speech, from the opposite side of the political aisle, and yet this is the breaking point?
I finally have figured out who @Ozymandia actually is. He is Matthew Dowd, only that retarded loser could have a take this bad.
Why would anyone assume that Kirk was murdered for his influence? I don't know? Maybe the rabid psychopaths on social media openly celebrating this murder would make that abundantly obvious. We need to round these people up and put them in asylums. Maybe force them to break large rocks with hammers while weening them off of their medications will make them able to be released back into society.
You're taking the actions of a small number of individuals and extrapolating it across a broad spectrum of people. What about the political killings of a Minnesota state senator?
Acting like this is somehow the left when it's just the actions of a small number of radical people is absurd and pretty dangerous. In any instance throughout history where the actions of a small number were used to justify the persecution or repute of a broader group has ended poorly. The burning of the Reichstag was used to justify the prosecution and banning of communist parties in Germany in 1933.
Identifying small but extreme examples of outsized violence as a reason to swear off the left, which represents a coalition of millions of Americans, is quite frankly one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.
I'll put it in WSO terms: Imagine if 3 companies in the industrials sector went belly up tomorrow because of corrupt leadership cooking the books. Would you swear off industrials as an "evil sector" and "totally corrupt"? No, because the actions of a small number of individuals at a few firms is not representative of a much larger, broader group of individuals.
Amen. We should all condemn violence of any sort, and maybe especially targeted political violence.
But the outrage from right wing commentators about this incident rings hollow and hypocritical in light of their silence when it's conservatives gunning down liberals.
Did any of these people offer Melissa Hortman anything more than their thoughts and prayers, if that? No. Why does Charlie Kirk warrant greater sympathy?
I'm not sure what your threshold is for "small number of individuals," but 2 separate attempts on a presidential candidate, assassinating someone for their political beliefs, mentally ill maniacs with certain political messaging on their weapons going after kids, freeing repeat violent criminals so they can go st*b innocent people on the subway, schwacking a CEO in broad daylight...small number of people??
The rhetoric and language used by the left to dehumanize people on the right by calling them racists, fascists, etc has directly led to the violence we are currently seeing. Full stop.
It’s not just an issue with the left and if you think so then you’re part of the problem. There were democrat lawmakers in Minnesota, who also had families, killed by right wingers. The issue is that our country has grown so divided that we’re unable to empathize with those on the other side of the political aisle, thus making it easier to justify political violence.
No one here said that it is ONLY the left that has an issue with political violence. What people are sick of is the response by the people of the same political persuasion to that violence. On the right it is basically 100% given pushback, on the left the pushback is about 50%, 40% justification, 10% outright praise.
That is the problem.
You were never moderate clown. The vast majority of political violence / hate crimes / school shootings have been committed by right wingers, but you ignore reality like a typical conservative to make yourself feel better
Wrong
Here's the thing. I'm more right than left but I'd never find joy in the California wildfires or for example Hurricane Sandy when it hit NYC. Meanwhile you have people on the left saying it's funny when the church camp in Texas got flooded since it's Christian likely probably conservative kids that were dying, and this isn't isolated to just one or two trolls online trying to stir stuff up. This killing is the latest example. There is a non-insignificant amount of the left who has gone full on sociopathic and it's disturbing, particularly since these people are not the stereotype of the loser in his mom's basement and instead they have high paying jobs in medicine, law, tech, and that makes it more dangerous. This has to stop. 2 decades of non-stop programming from the media that any disagreement with the left is "literally Hitler" is not helping.
The left is absurdly violent. BLM killed way more people than the left likes to mention. The left plainly hates life unless it perfectly conforms to them. Ozy is a true example of that
You know, I don't post here much but I'm going to hop on and post under my real name. Ozymandias is hiding behind a screen name because he'd never make such an inflammatory and insane comment publicly. That is a gross statement and you should be embarrassed.
If you want to debate politics like taxes or abortion or gun control, that's why we have these kind of discussions and debates. Switzerland has less gun control than America and less crime. But we can debate the pros or cons, if we should be more like Canada or more like Switzerland or somewhere in between and that's a normal part of discussion. Saying "I think it's funny he got shot because he was against gun control" is a sick statement, and you should really look in the mirror and re-evaluate yourself. But I don't think you are going to do that since you're a small man hiding behind a burner account. This violence is not acceptable, end of discussion.
But if you really want to stand on business on this one, do it under your real name. Or are you afraid of consequences for your insane behavior, or do you just have the maturity of a teenager popping off some edgy takes at a time like this? Either way I don't want you working at my bank. That's unacceptable.
Post under a real name. You are asking him do something no one else does. If you that confident about postingunder a real name, prove it by providing your linkedin.
What is a gross statement? Presumably you saw no problem with Mr Kirk gloating over deaths caused by gun violence because it allowed him to carry a firearm.
I don't think Mr Kirk should have been shot, or "got what he deserved" or anything like that. Everyone should have a right to express their opinion free from the threat of physical harm. But the man who essentially said that people being murdered is the price we pay for the Second Amendment, is presumably the person who is happiest to be a martyr to that exact cause.
I would and did say as much, not on the internet. I don't think it's a controversial take.
It's a good thing I didn't say that!
Well, if your bank is a place where you make shit up so you have something to feel morally superior about, I don't want to work at your bank, either. I'd prefer to work at a place where people are judged on the merits of their arguments, and not propped up as easy windmills to tilt at.
Backpedaling hard now. What's your real name?
"Tell me who you are so I can try to ruin your life" Grow up dude. Oz didn't say anything crazy
I didn't backpedal on anything. To the extent I said anything controversial (which I didn't), I doubled down.
Mr Kirk should not have been murdered. I hope his killer is brought to justice. No one deserves to be assaulted or threatened with it on the basis of their speech. But it is disingenuous, dishonest, and disrespectful to not view his murder through the lens of his own stated beliefs. Which are, to quote, that it is a "prudent deal" that people be murdered so that others can freely own firearms.
Charlie Kirk built his career of dunking on college kids by debating them in bad faith. You couldn't "beat" Charlie Kirk in a debate, because he wasn't having on in good faith, as basically any rational person long knew.
You don't get to take this line if you don't also take it when it's liberals, or anyone else, being gunned down for expressing their beliefs. Which you didn't, and don't.
Pretending that charlie kirk was debating in good faith and not fishing for sound bites to dunk on libs and farm social media engagement and clicks is one of the worst takes i’ve ever heard of in my life
Sure, but there is no reason that it needs to be had on this finance forum. While I agree generally with you, WSO is well within their rights (morally and legally) to yeet them
Yeah you're right - they sure can if they want to, but they don't have to. It wasn't like this pre-Buzzfeed reporter.
It makes sense for them to keep that off here too. Like do they have to yeet these discussions? No. But by keeping those conversations on here does push people away which makes their real revenue generators (ie - courses) harder to monetize.
Yes, there are people on Reddit who are not mourning Charlie Kirk's life but why would they. He stood for almost everything that they oppose. I am not mourning the end of his life but I am not cheering about it.
He was a very controversial and polarizing public person, so I am not surprised that his life ended this way. I did not agree with any of his views but I could say the same thing about the views of most conservative people. The one view that made him unique in not such a good way was his view that college is scam. He went to universities and told students that their education is a scam. These students are working diligently and paying a lot of money to get a degree to improve their lives.
I don't think he really had that many "controversial" views at all. This is just a buzz word to somehow excuse his death.
His views are pretty mainstream conservatism that half the country believes in if not more. He just boldly proclaimed his views and was willing to discuss them with others. That's the only thing that made him different.
They're not controversial views like giving little kids sex changes or something like that.
I agree that his views are typical conservative views. I am saying that his approach was controversial. He would listen to the views of other people but he was very blunt and dismissive. I have seen not anything other than snippets of him speaking but what I can tell, he did not seem wiling at all to accept other viewpoints.
Also, some of what he said probably had undertones of homophobia and racism. The last two questions he answered could be interpreted as homophobic and racist. When asked how many transgender people have committed mass shooting, his answer was "too many." When asked about how many mass shootings have occurred in the US in the past 10 years, he responded with, it depends on whether you include gang violence. What does gang violence have to do with mass shootings?
I think that condoning thousands of murders so he could carry a gun is controversial. I think that claiming the Civil Rights Act was a mistake is controversial.
Well, you could argue that the real controversial view he had was exactly what you're saying, which is: making up an argument, pretending your opponents support it, and then turning on the outrage.
Mr Kirk made a career for himself by dunking on college students. I don't think that's bold or brave, and anyone who has seen any of his videos knows his willingness to "discuss" his views was often done in bad faith.
I agree that his "controversial" views are primarily mainstream right-wing views, so how could they truly be controversial. Besides, popularity of one's views is irrelevant. What matters is if they are good views or bad views.
Charlie has pretty self-evidently bad opinions regarding most things he opines on. And when that is not the case, they are simply "just" bad opinions. There are very few times where Charlie believes in something good.
This is more or less my position. No one should be murdered. The only person involved in this thread who thought murder was justified was Charlie Kirk.
We shouldn't cheer or condone murder, or violence, ever. But it's telling that no one has been able to answer the simple question of: what do you want? Beyond bringing his killer to justice, what else is there to do but offer "thoughts and prayers" like we do for every other horrific, preventable incident?
The conservatives on this thread seem to feel that Mr Kirk's murder is somehow worse than anyone else's, that he deserves a level of sympathy and mourning beyond what any of us would give to any other stranger. I have trouble accepting that or seeing a justification, because the rank hypocrisy of demanding it now when it wasn't given in the past is just too transparent.
There is a reason to care about this murder more than others. It is not only an attack on a human person like any other person but it is also an attack on free speech and a form of intimidation on others who want to excercise their free speech.
So, yes. This murder is much different than some guy getting killed in the NYC subway.
If you want to downplay this obvious fact, I can only guess at your motivations for doing so.
You rarely see a topic on WSO about a school shooting even though we have had about 4000 or so mass shootings in he past 10 years. When a conservative, high profile person is murdered, there are many topics filed with outrage. Where is the outrage here when schools are shot up?
He’s a popular public figure and leader of the conservative movement for the youth and his death has a significant impact on the future of politics in this country. Its not just some faceless Joe so of course people are more upset, like losing a digital friend sort of
college at 200-300k for 80% of people is a scam. If we wanted college to actually be worth it, universities(most state) wouldn't be glorified vacation resorts made that way to attract students who bring in their government money.
But yet the majority of people on WSO have paid this money to universities in order to make lots of money as investment bankers.
His views were unbelievably milquetoast and barely right of center on most issues, but the fact that your ilk sees him as extreme just shows the complete brain damage that has taken over the progressive left.
He said, explicitly, that it's a "prudent deal" that tens of thousands of people be murdered every year so he can carry a firearm.
I agree that's "barely right of center" for Republicans. But it's more evidence of the extremism of modern American conservatism than anything else.
thoughts and prayers to his family
if only there were a clear and obvious solution to this issue that other countries have implemented with great success
If you mean to remove guns from society, I would agree. The only people who should be allowed to have guns are law enforcement people, certain business owners and hunters.
I'm not arguing, but this in fact is the whole of our second amendment. So this would be an impass.
Yeah, ban bolt-action rifles!
Fucking nerd.
someone got in their feels, sorry big man
significantly hindering the ability to buy firearms of any kind is a good policy, regardless of type. The intermediate step of eliminating access to semi-automatic firearms and handguns like AR-15s would be an obvious first step that would do a lot of good and where there is little to no justification for owning one other than for shooting another human being. The problem is conservatives aren’t even willing to engage with that conversation, even if it means people still have access to low capacity rifles and shotguns.
I am a gun owner and a hunter, and would happily give up my guns if it means a few less kids get murdered every year. Ask yourself what’s the leading cause of death for children under 18, and why are we doing nothing about it? And is there evidence of this policy working elsewhere in the world (feel free to “do your own research” but the answer is yes).
Yes, locking up the mentally challenged loons works great.
Ah, yes, yes - an almost certainly fabricated story about protestors with ARs the Seattle protests followed by the claim that all liberals want to shoot people with divergent opinions. Very convincing argument.
ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the state of discourse on the right
A guy litterally murded a Trump supporter in cold blood in Portland. The murderer then was killed in a shootout with the police. He used an AR-15 to try and kill the police with.
This is also a guy who was given a stage by the local media to give an interview between the murder and his death. The media refused to tell the police where he was hiding.
Gun control isn't going to solve the issue of having too many (often young) disenfranchised people who think the only option is to go out and kill innocents, who have either done nothing, or just having diverging beliefs. Sure its a problem that mentally unwell people have ease of access to firearms. I think all these political assassinations/school shootings are indicative of how bad society has been treating each other and kids. There is no reason for anyone to think that murder is only solution to whatever problem it is OR the first option you default to (thinking of UNH and Kirk).
However, social media has created this shitty environment where people think they're arbiters of justice, truth, and reason. I said this in a previous deleted post: This mentality is eroding away due process on both ends; Trumps immigration, economic, and legal attacks are just bypassing the rule of law to achieve whatever his agenda is, and the large swaths of young liberals that see the UNH or Trump assassinations as something good (Did not include Kirk because I think MOST people aren’t that brain dead, however I haven’t seen what people are posting).
Yeah so it is great that WSO is trying to shut down any discussion people are having, we definitely need more people in echo chambers!
Sure. And Charlier Kirk would be alive today but for a bullet fired from a gun
No and you’re totally right, that kid shouldnt have gotten a gun that easily. I think the point I was trying to make is gun control isnt going to solve the problem of a disenfranchised youth. I think I didnt articulate this clearly but yeah more gun control is necessary but my argument was more about not letting people get so mentally messed up that they shoot up a school or assassinate someone.
Honest question: what level of gun control would you advocate?
The gun in question here is a hunting rifle. No proposed gun control measure has ever contemplated banning this kind of rifle, so it would've still happened.
I'm genuinely curious how far gun control advocates want to go, because I learned recently that a lot of folks who claim to "just want common sense gun control" are closeted gun snatchers. You get a couple of drinks in them and the truth comes out: they really don't want anyone to have any kind of gun. I got a friend to admit recently that he thinks hunters should have to use bow-and-arrow just so there's no guns in society.
This is a safe space. An anonymous forum. So let's hear the truth . . what should we actually do? There's 400 million guns in the country right now . . what are we proposing to confiscate?
Why are people so vocal here? He shouldn’t have been shot for having an opinion, just like a child should be shot for just going to school. He’s just one man.
The people downvoting seem to have a very specific response they’re looking for though. And that response is not their typical “thoughts and prayers.” They want to turn this into something bigger.
It's the first successful political assasination since Bobby Kennedy and MLK in 1968. Is that not big enough for you?
There is zero chance you are over the age of 14
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Natus in eum reiciendis voluptates reprehenderit enim cupiditate. Vel similique explicabo velit maxime occaecati assumenda qui. Est aliquam aspernatur veritatis tempora. Est neque architecto id excepturi magnam.
Reiciendis suscipit recusandae delectus quos ut et id et. Velit reprehenderit veritatis qui quia ut. Aspernatur veritatis ut aspernatur. Repellat quasi voluptate fuga sed aut cupiditate sit.
Cupiditate est quibusdam ut veritatis sed nam consequatur. Hic ut ut inventore rem et qui. Suscipit sed dolor commodi a hic aperiam vero assumenda. Enim qui amet est voluptatem nihil iste quia. Alias magnam doloremque repellat accusantium quia dicta et.
Repellendus in voluptas similique quia. Et ad consequatur optio dolores deleniti officia voluptatem. Incidunt officiis ducimus atque dolor velit praesentium iste. Natus doloremque sapiente assumenda deleniti quos. Distinctio placeat ut ullam nam. Ab enim aut voluptas.
Quia inventore asperiores assumenda iste minima. Sit blanditiis veniam molestias omnis laudantium ullam. Error earum quia deserunt expedita unde dicta accusantium harum. Quos non adipisci voluptas fuga. Ea voluptatem qui omnis consequatur placeat. Sunt aliquam sequi occaecati nam et.