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To be born into a rich family comes with no drama and a care free life, right?
I think it's a bizarre comparison, not really like you have a choice either way
If you put my mind into fetus me, I'd probably want to live, but that's not realistic so I don't know how to really assess this
I never said this. I made the point that many of the "lucky" children that will now be born rather than aborted will be born into lives that are full of suffering and despair. But hey, at least the right to life is preserved right?
Two things on this:
1. If the only cause that I believe in is a cause which saves 60 million lives, that is sufficient. It is a worthy enough cause on its own even if you are not actively involved in 50 other related causes such as childhood education, better maternity leave, etc.
2. Not sure why only the pro-life crowd is always accused of this. What about people who support universal healthcare? Far too many people who want "universal" healthcare don't think it is universal for human fetuses with a hearbeat at 6 weeks. So they are hypocrites. If you believe in the rights of women, what about female fetuses? Guess not.
This is just another flimsy pro-choice talking point to draw people away from the actual scientific argument on whether you are allowed to stop another human heartbeat already present at 6 weeks.
It's pretty obvious from this quote that k1k10 is saying that if you are pro life you should be pro safety net. If the anti abortion crowd spent half as much energy agitating for support for the mothers they force to bear children a lot of kids' lives would be improved.
Also notice how I responded to the substance of your post rather than just MS'ing it or talking about how God knows I'm a good person
Quite a dick move from OP to put you on the spot like this instead of discussing it with you under your comment. Clearly needs the a strawman defense to make his argument look stronger.
If you cannot provide for children, it probably does not make sense to have them. Many people defer having children until they are more financially capable of providing for them.
What about this: would YOU have rather been born into a poor family, or not born at all?
You guys are seriously dumb as fuck
(I) Being poor, and (II) growing up poor with a shitty family, constant abuse (sexually, physically, emotionally), drug addicted single parent, foster care, continued depression and trauma into adulthood are two completely different things
id think a good a good amount of adults who experienced #2 would have chosen to rather not live that life in the first place. I didn’t experience that, but can’t say I’d blame them.
Why force a poor parent who does not want kids to have them? Who does that help?
Religion should have no place in guiding policy
Laws should be moral to all forms of human life.
A government designing policy to punish people for things that may be out of their control is a government that doesn't care about its people's lives.
Just on the moral piece - I’m curious if you’re against guns as well? Is it moral to human life for people to have the right and access to items that can injure or kill others (you could say that’s the primary purpose of those items)?
But how do we decide what is necessary? Where do you draw the line about which laws we should keep or not keep?
That's just like, your opinion, man
Great! Now explain why we should stop a human heart at 6 weeks or kill a fetus that experiences pain at 12 weeks. That's science.
Is there even a human heart at 6 weeks? For an entity entirely dependent on its carrier, I believe the carrier should have a say in whether or not they want the dependent.
Do you want to jail women for having miscarriages as well? They’re way more common than you think.
Put aside the fact that the pro-life argument is not a religious argument, this is one of the more retarded slogans that lefties consistently say. Religion is a values system - what's one policy that isn't informed by values systems? Every shitty lib policy is informed by the backwards lib values system, and leftism is as dogmatic as any organized religion. The distinction between morals/values informed by organized religion and morals/values informed by anything else is entirely semantic.
Right to life views have to contain some type of religious component because the vast majority of people who have these views are at least somewhat religious. I do not know where the religion connection comes from, though.
Good luck with Marxism not being the theology behind woke Democrat policies.
Discussion better suited for reddit?
Who cares
I was born into poverty. Our house burned down when I was 6 months old, my dad is a disabled veteran, and my first year of college (as the a first generation college student) I made more working a part time job than my parents made the whole year.
My life is a gift and I wouldn't end it just because I had a harder start. I know I'm never going to be a Billionaire, and I don't care. I know that I've missed out on large swaths of life that rich kids had, but... so? Life can just be different and that's okay--they've never experienced what it's like to live in a trailer, eat what you kill, etc. Hell, I've got the satisfaction that has come from clawing my way up and knowing for damn sure that I've earned my spot, which is a state of being that silver spooners will always wrestle with--would they rather be aborted, knowing that they had a the world handed to them, and they didn't earn their place?
No?
Then why the hell should I? Why should I, knowing that had the opportunity to summit a mountain, shrink because of the slope of the climb? That's how true men are made. Hard times are not to be turned away from, they are to be learned from an overcome.
The tree that never had to fight
For sun and sky and air and light,
But stood out in the open plain
And always got its share of rain,
Never became a forest king
But lived and died a scrubby thing.
I'm not a scrubby thing, and my life is worth it. I'm cherish the fact that I was not cast out just because my life might be hard--that's the only thing that's made my life worth it.
Oh come the fuck on.
Literally no one is saying poor people don’t deserve to be born. the premise of this entire topic is stupid. Good story though. I was born poor too.
I guess reading titles is hard, because that's literally the topic of the thread
I think we would've been OK if you were aborted.
When someone who supports abortion doesn't know much about Margret Sanger >>>>>> ;)
It's a disgusting opinion held by people who can't form a coherent argument beyond parroting "it's a woman's choice" and other slogans from the TV, who also happen have the convenient benefit of having been born. Whenever I see videos of these protests and people carrying signs like "I wish I had been aborted" you can know 100% of the time that they are a feckless, disingenuous coward or a flat out idiot just supporting whatever the current "thing" is - otherwise they could just kill themselves at any point and be done with it. Life is a choice, you can end it at any point. No one has the right to say "X person would have been better off not being born" unless it is themselves, and unless they're willing to kill themselves right after saying it then even they don't believe it.
I cannot imagine a more hateful, elitist, and discriminatory stance than looking at a poor kid in a tough family situation and thinking "this person would have been better off being torn to shreds in the womb and sucked out with a vacuum than having the opportunity to live and find a way to make a life for themselves" or seeing a poor woman with a child and expressing "her life would be so much better if she had just killed her kid."
This was an issue I was completely disinterested in as a teen but as I've gotten older and actually lived a life that came with plenty of its own struggles (including a near-death experience) I simply cannot imagine supporting abortion. Life is the greatest gift there is. There is nothing stopping people from just choosing to not have sex if they are so incapable of supporting a child. Nothing to stop them from using contraception. Nothing to stop them from sterilizing themselves. There are dozens of different decisions that can be made that prevent a child from being conceived so there's nothing in my opinion that then justifies killing one.
If killing people who have done nothing to deserve it (put a pin in how we define deserve) then abortion is objectively wrong. If killing someone who we subjectively judge would have been better off not being born then there's nothing to stop that from gradually progressing to "well this ethnic group has such a hard time, they would be better off not existing". Just do some reading on how Margaret Sanger was a eugenicist who spoke at clan rallies and realize that Planned Parenthoods are most frequently found in low income and minority communities. Sequitur.
Can anyone explain to me how this isn't just genocide with extra steps? Is it different because many of these women have been convinced that abortion is a solution to a problem that could be resolved by simply taking personal responsibility for themselves? It's insanity.
Well said, SB
Thank you. Your story is quite impactful as well, congratulations on what you've achieved and may you have the opportunity to achieve so much more having been given the gift of life.
Great post. What's crazy to me is that a lot of the pro-choice people who parrot "my body my choice" with zero critical thinking are simply doing so because this is what their political "side" has told them to believe.
I remember back in school in religious education lessons, one time we were having a class discussion of abortion ethics and its legality. The class was split pretty much 50-50 but we were able to have a very productive discussion listening to both sides viewpoints and nobody was emotional or arguing with each other like we see now. Now however, I see these same people who were able to critically think for themselves when they were 13 years old, litter their social media with pro choice posts, blatantly disregarding the opposite point of view and simply spewing whatever talking points their political ideology told them to say.
The whole thing just amazes me that before these kids were corrupted by liberals into thinking that all pro-life people are evil and hate women, they were able to hold civilised discussions and a lot of them were actually pro life themselves.
Thanks my monkey, appreciate it!
I agree with everything you said except 1 part - saying that they were corrupted by liberals. Liberals are who founded this country. Liberals are who ended slavery. Liberals are who got women the right to vote. The prominent figures of the left today are largely not liberals, they are progressives. Progressivism is a hair shy of utopianism, which is the same mindset that leads to Communism and Nazism by denying human nature and trying to progress towards an unachievable goal of a "perfect society" which inevitably results in the culling of any people who do not agree with or fit the blueprint for what these ideologies decide is the ultimate goal for their region/country/humanity.
Liberalism is what made/makes this country great. Progressivism is what will destroy everything we value about it.
Glad I've managed to say some stuff that people on this forum largely seem to agree with lately though (at least when you go off of bananas). Serious white pill for the future!
The pro-choice position in this thread is deliberately presented in bad faith in order to attract maximum moral disdain, and here you are decrying 'zero critical thinking'.
Like someone else here said, the topic question is deliberately framed in such a way that the obvious answer is 'no'. The position you are attacking isn't actually held by anyone, or is at best held by a vocal fringe minority.
American politics is a lost cause tbh.
I have a economic plan and it is called the right to life tax. For those people who feel very strongly about fetuses and their right to life, you would be assessed a tax to pay for all of the babies that are born due to overturning Rowe V Wade. I am curious to see if conservatives would be on board with this policy?
This would probably be popular in red states. I would be fine with this tax.
But, aren’t taxes already going to fund Abortions?
“taxpayers subsidize roughly 24% of all abortion costs in the U.S. with 6.6% borne by federal taxpayers and the remaining 17.4% picked up by state taxpayers. If we apply the 24% figure to the total number of abortions, this is equivalent to taxpayers paying the full cost of 250,000 abortions a year, with about 70,000 financed by federal taxpayers and 180,000 financed by state taxpayers“
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2015/10/02/are-american-taxp…
Assuming that I knew that it was actually going to support those children, and not some form of child support that just enables a useless mother's lifestyle while disregarding the needs of the child, then absolutely. I have no clue what the solutions are (tbh I'm ignorant in that regard), but assuming that it worked then I'd pay that without question. I'd like to hire these kids someday, why would I not invest in their futures?
So you’re ok with the child’s needs being disregarded if you don’t have to pay for it?
You can't only support the kids. You would also have to support the mother who will not be in the work force due to being forced to have babies.
I have a plan too. Let's use free-market principles to make this one of the best countries in the world where people can rise from poor to middle class to ultra wealthy if they wish. Making sure that kids are born into a society that offers opportunity is the real key to their quality of life.
It is also the reason people keep coming in droves to the U.S. It's not because we have the best benefits on the planet. What has made America great over the years has not been a check waiting for an expectant mother but rather the fact that her children will have more opportunity and potential than almost anywhere else in the world.
He's a progressive that can't fathom making people work to live comfortably and instead expects everyone who does get taxed to shit to make everything equitable. So of course the only logical solution if people refuse to allow the government to redistribute wealth is to encourage poor people to just not reproduce, it's so simple. There's no reasoning with him.
We have that. Its called Medicaid and food stamps. Better economic plan: the baby daddy will pay an extra tax if they wish not to take care of his kid. Will the male pro-abortionists be in favor of this?
Enrollment in these programs is probably going to rise due to Rowe V Wade being overturned. I think some of the money for these programs comes from federal sources but I could be wrong
I think they should just be made to look after the children tbh
Its wrong to kill babies, whether in womb or not. If you don't want babies, don't have sex. If its rape or incest, keep the baby. the baby did nothing wrong and should not be held responsible and killed for an evil act that brought him to life. To many of you this will sound radical....thats because of how far this society has shifted away from a true moral code, which is necessary for any successful AND peaceful society.
No no no, personal responsibility is for men only and to make women be responsible for their actions would be patriarchal oppression you bigot. Pay no attention to the fact >90% of abortions are elective procedures with no reason provided or you're a racist.
Del
Who cares. You have no control over what society does. Don’t worry about it.
That's literally how legislation works (granted I'm anti-government) but ok. If a societal majority decides it's acceptable to just start rounding up a particular ethnic group and executing them en masse, should we not worry about that either then? Just checking that we're keeping consistent.
Your vote doesn’t matter and it won’t make a difference. But let’s say that it does. It takes 30 minutes to vote. You vote every two years. There are 525,600 minutes in a year. You should dedicate .000028 of your time to caring. Everything else is wasted effort.
Why do people care about what other people do with their bodies? If a women you don’t know gets an abortion how does that effect you?
It contradicts their believies so they must speak out because their opinions are important!
These losers can’t get laid, so they want women to suffer by any means necessary
It's pretty telling that your response to almost everyone that disagrees with you is that they "must not be able to get laid". Conservatives are having more kids than progressives in droves, so by basic indicators it's an easily supportable argument that if anything they're getting laid more often.
What about you though? Still incel for years now, obviously
Such a hilariously inaccurate and desperate jab that I almost pity you.
The entire argument from the pro-life position is that the baby is a wholly separate entity (it has it's own unique DNA distinct from the mother) with its own right to life. How do you not get this? I don't care if you agree with that position, the fact is that there are people who do have that belief and for that reason see this as murdering a person who is incapable of defending themselves. Nobody gives a fuck what the woman does with her body, they care what she does with the child's.
If a child you don't know gets runover, why do you care? Why does it matter when a school shooting happens if they're not your kids? Do you see how ridiculous this line of thinking is?
That is the million dollar question, as it does not really make a lot of sense why you would feel so strongly about what other people do. Here is what makes the most sense: if you feel very strongly about the right to life issue, then don't have an abortion. Otherwise, mind your own fucking business.
Only a very bored person would make such a dumb post
All I know is that I support abortion only in cases of rape / saving the mother's life / if I could go back in time and abort Ozymandia
Well, you'd think that the right would do everything in their power to stop poor minorities having more babies.
Also - some getting some strong incel vibes off this thread.
Didn't read the thread because I don't care, but if the title were implemented, that would reduce the global population by about 65%. Ridiculous!
I'm all for eugenics, but it seems to me decades of abortion hasn't made the people most affected by it more wealthy, beautiful, smart, successful, etc, but actually the complete opposite. Besides, no one's saying that you can't have a ban on non-medically necessary abortions and affordable childcare/kindergartens/day mothers/etc together - it's simply a false dichotomy, one that the GOP is only too happy to run into and sound like complete dickheads.
I think the way the question is phrased elicits the mostly obvious answer of "it's not better to be aborted". However, I don't think the way the stance is worded properly articulates the question of pro-life vs. pro-choice, because it's shifts the frame of reference to the reader rather than the baby.
An analogy I might draw is that of trying a new food. Given a food with no expectations or any available frame of reference (including to a pleasure in "trying new things"), one should be indifferent to trying the new food or not. Maybe the question to ask yourself then is "are you missing out if you don't know your missing out". I'd imagine how you answer that question heavily impacts your overall stance.
Connecting this back to a fetus. If I were to stick my own experiences in the unborn body, obviously it's preference would be to not be aborted. However, given the baby has zero frame of reference for what life is, the baby should be indifferent. For that reason, the argument of "would you want to be aborted" doesn't translate directly to the question of aborting an unborn baby.
Under this philosophy, the mother should be able to feel free to make a decision without having to worry about what the baby is missing out on and only factor in whether having a baby makes sense for her (i.e., whether she wants it or not).
This has parallels with cost of living arguments across the world. If the U.S. outsources work for under U.S. fair market value, are they being unfair to the foreign workers (who are being paid over the market value of their own country).
I would argue relative expectations are the key framework to representing the unborn baby's perspective. That said, this framework misses on how the pro-life/pro-choice debate fundamentally changes as the fetus progresses. It also misses on the conditions that the baby is born into including available support.
I, of course, appreciate any feedback on the thought process here.
This is a perfect response
I apologize if this is controversial, but it's not fair at all to bring some kid into the world when you are struggling financially. Life is already hard enough as it is, growing up impoverished when you didn't have any say in the matter, is by definition unfair. And no, I don't mean some middle class shmuck making 60k, I mean a family that's making around poverty level wages, severely in debt, addicted to drugs, etc. When you bring a kid into that sort of situation....well very few of those kids turn out alright in the end. It's hard to escape that reality.
Fair enough, but does that justify an abortion if the person accidentally got pregnant in unprotected sex?
Why do you care if SOMEONE ELSE has an abortion? It is not like you are having the abortion.
Two ways to think about it, with statistics and what will actually happen.
1. With statistics (via Pew research). ~60% of abortions come from women in their 20s, and another 30% from women in their 30s. the other 10% is split between women in their 40s and teens. Rapes account for 1% of abortions, incest ~0.5%. So from a data standpoint, its an argument that a majority of abortions are from people who should know better. A big reason why women/couples say they get abortions is because they aren't ready to be parents or can't afford it. I'm not saying people shouldn't have sex (because that's probably not realistic), but they should definitely be more careful.
2. What will actually happen. At the end of the day, I don't know if it will be good to make babies be born to parents that don't want them. I always say, in reality, every problem we try to fix in America/probably the world is because of bad parenting if you break it down. So it would just create more problems/crime for all of us, as they the Freakonomics guys say.
As for 2) - I know what you mean about Freakonomics. In their book I think they correlated lower crime rates with higher abortions. This is a slippery slope. How do you justify a life? How do you justify killing a life. I think the chance to live is what we all deserve. How can you kill an innocent life because they “might” get involved with criminals? What will the world turn into if we abort a large amount of unborn babies for every reason because they “might” not turn out well? How can we predict the success of an unborn baby? What is success?
You present fair points, all things to consider.
I look at it another way, say the US government had a "switch" they could turn on that if someone killed someone else, but the killer said "bing bong boom" after killing someone, it would bring the killee back to life. Then everyone in the country started debating if should flip this switch or not. The real question would, why are people taking another persons life? Is it right to say don't flip the switch because people shouldn't be doing an activity in the first place, or have the attitude, you don't agree with flipping the switch, but it might work out better in the long term, so is that the way to go?
Same thing with abortion. If you look at the stats I have above, in reality, people should just be more carefully, a very large majority of abortions are to grown adults. However, we have to be real and say that people aren't careful, so how do we proceed?
To answer your first question, it all depends as everyone says throughout this thread. It's basically, would you rather be alive and poor or dead? Is poor to mean just without monetary value, or does it also mean no way to increase your social status or you don't have any family/friends?
Just ask anyone if they wish their mother aborted them ? The answer alone should tell you whether abortion is right.
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