Top Tier 2 or 3 Cities?

I know the topic of "tier 1" cities (NY, SF, LA, Chicago, Dallas, etc) and which is the best is red meat to WSO, but I am more curious on what people think about "lower tier cities" that have a balance of respectability/opportunity and LCOL or a more "relaxed feel" than NYC or SF. Not trying to start a debate, I am just interested in what people have to think on this forum. Also, if people think there are any underrated "tier 4" or pretty small cities that are underrated/up-and-coming, would love to hear about those as well. Thanks


**Please note: Yes I know the idea of having "tiers" for cities is mostly foolish but I think you all know what I am trying to say here. Also, I am not trying to flame large cities or small cities. Just curious. 

 

Some people shit on it, and I've never been, but I've heard pretty good things about Salt Lake City. Doesn't GS have a large office (probably mid/bank office mostly) there?

Nashville is good probably too, Phoenix I'd imagine. I personally liked Pittsburgh too, I think more tech firms are trying to focus on it.

Tier 4 whatever+ is more regional, Richmond, VA is a great regional city, Greenville, SC too. The Research Triangle in NC is nothing to sneeze at too.

Quant (ˈkwänt) n: An expert, someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.
 

GS SLC is purely MO/BO roles. Haven’t heard great things regarding WLB relative to pay. Obviously if that’s your only offer take it because of the brand name but I wouldn’t see it as a long term job. 
I am not aware of any banks in Nashville and Nashville is unique in its own ways. If you like country music and country culture in a city, Nashville is the place to be, otherwise don’t go.

Don’t think there’s anything special about Phoenix proper but it’s pretty close to Tempe and Scottsdale which is great if you’re early/mid 20s.

Don’t know much about Richmond/Pittsburgh/Charleston although I think Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎 has experience with Charleston. 
 

Array
 

IncomingIBDreject

Don't know much about Richmond/Pittsburgh/Charleston although I think Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎 has experience with Charleston. 
 

Charleston is ok. There are a lot of decently hot girls here, but not a lot of super hot chicks like in NYC. It's nice being near the beach. I prefer North County San Diego though if that is a Tier 2 city - Encinitas is a lot of fun. I like Orange County as well.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee
 
IncomingIBDreject

Don't know much about Richmond/Pittsburgh/Charleston although I think Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎 has experience with Charleston. 

That's by design basically, these are smaller cities have a much more regional focus so that makes sense. Many of these kinds of cities have at least 1 Fortune 500 company (Richmond has a few and Pittsburgh has more, Charleston doesn't have any but Greystar for all my CRE bois is based there), but obviously the focus is a lot more local. Generally people really interested in those kinds of cities and jobs (more FP&A, CorpDev, Ops, etc.) wouldn't be on WSO in the first place. Just my $0.02.

That's interesting about WLB at GS SLC, I wasn't aware of that.

Quant (ˈkwänt) n: An expert, someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.
 

I'd way rather live in Denver. The appeal of both is easy access to world class skiing/snowboarding in the winter. The big differences are Denver is bigger (has more shit to do) and Utah is kinda behind the curve on stuff like weed (some people here probably don't care). Also, Utah is one of those states with a bunch of weird religious laws that make things like buying booze more annoying.

I second the NC stuff tho. I have family in Raleigh and it's a pretty chill, smaller city.

 

If you aren't into the weed/bar scene and more a family person then Utah has a lot to offer. Same outdoors , world class skiing, as Colorado but not as popular. Problem is it's still hugely mormon - which I have no problem with but you will be an outsider in some communities. Also, despite the weird religious stuff the COL is absurd. So you arent getting a discount for putting up with the weird shit.

Could live in SLC but has shortcomings

 

Would add Charlottesville to that list. Definitely agree, though I'd say the Research Triangle is probably Tier 3.5 or so since it's an amalgamation of 3 college towns and is very robust for jobs, more so than the others.

Quant (ˈkwänt) n: An expert, someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.
 

I currently work at GS in SLC and it’s pretty low pay and bad wlb but everyone on my team is basically in it for the resume boost. 
 

Retention rate is awful, no free food at the office, and too many Mormons. SLC itself is fine; decent weather and food, but rent is much more expensive than I expected.

Personally, I’m trying to bounce to NYC as soon as I land a better offer. 

 
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If you want true southern culture (which is great) and already have a partner or even a family, Richmond VA is amazing. Cost of living is great, weather is generally pretty good, people are friendly, and you can live a pretty nice life. Even better if you want to join a country club and play golf.

Pittsburgh is an interesting one. I really enjoyed living there from 2011 - 2013, but I also had a great job and made some very good friends. It is a blue-collar city for sure with limited nightlife. That said, the sports culture is fierce (Steelers and Penguins in particular) and there is actually a pretty strong restaurant scene. Prices are reasonable as well. Heck, we used to be able to buy Pittsburgh Pirates tickets same day for $9 and just walk over to PNC Park, which is quite nice (Steelers and Penguins tickets not as easy to get). I do think Pittsburgh did a very good job revitalizing itself and attracting industry. The medical community is also very strong in Pittsburgh.

While I would consider it a tier 1 city, it wasn’t on your list so I will throw out a vote for Boston. If you’re comfortable with the cold, the city can be a great place to live throughout your career. Tons of opportunities in VC/PE/Medical/Law (less so in banking). The population skews younger given the sheer number of universities in the city, and a lot of people stay in Boston after graduation. So for someone in their 20s, there are lots of different people to meet and a constant influx of new young people to the city every year. Cost of living is above average, but reasonable compared to a NYC/London/SF. 

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If you want true southern culture (which is great) and already have a partner or even a family, Richmond VA is amazing. Cost of living is great, weather is generally pretty good, people are friendly, and you can live a pretty nice life. Even better if you want to join a country club and play golf.

I have a lot of friends there, many of whom have relocated from DC since it's HCOL. Not as many opportunities down there, but if you're fine with a regional focus, I'd recommend it to anyone. I've thought about moving down there a lot over the years but it's just hard to find something for what I want to do.

Quant (ˈkwänt) n: An expert, someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.
 

Pittsburgh is an interesting one. I really enjoyed living there from 2011 - 2013, but I also had a great job and made some very good friends. It is a blue-collar city for sure with limited nightlife. That said, the sports culture is fierce (Steelers and Penguins in particular) and there is actually a pretty strong restaurant scene. Prices are reasonable as well. Heck, we used to be able to buy Pittsburgh Pirates tickets same day for $9 and just walk over to PNC Park, which is quite nice (Steelers and Penguins tickets not as easy to get). I do think Pittsburgh did a very good job revitalizing itself and attracting industry. The medical community is also very strong in Pittsburgh.

Completely agree.  It's small, but I've always been impressed with how well it's done (first time I went I was expecting a desiccated husk of a steel town).  

 

Sure, the majority of the opportunities are in NYC, but that doesn’t mean that other cities cannot be strong relative to different parts of the country. I’d argue that there are plenty of very strong law firms in Boston, including big law, where you can build an entire career and make oodles of money. More so than many other cities. So while Boston may not be #1 or even #2, doesn’t mean it isn’t a good legal market.

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 

Just visited Austin for the first time and was a big fan.  So many people in their twenties with high-quality jobs due to all the corporate growth that it was practically impossible NOT to make friends.  Generally everyone is new to the city so it's very social, outgoing, and friendly.  The river going through downtown and Lake Travis offer great recreational activity that I wouldn't have expected in TX.  All types of bars and restaurants across multiple districts with their own personalities.  UT adds a presence of youth as well.

Downsides: horrific infrastructure and homelessness.  They are actively improving the homeless situation though.

Great place for mid-twenties, maybe not so great once you're commuting from a suburb.  Curious of a local's take.

edit: should also mention the talent did not disappoint 

 

Son lives in Austin. Loves it. First job out of college. His lifestyle (and many around him) is pretty much college 2.0. Think college with money in your pocket. Tons of 20 somethings all making decent money. Tons of packed bars all over the place. Different "zones" of the city provide different vibes but they're all  busy with young people. BTW if you're a foodie pretty awesome. If working for a company with a decent size office, hard not to make plenty of friends. Lots of festivals, music and outside activities. Super friendly people. Artsy. Eclectic. Whatever you want.

The homeless thing is a problem though.

 

just visited Austin. Holy smoke couldn't recommend. Some cities just have an energy and this place does. Summer chi on steroids. Need to get real estate exposure there asap

 

None? My takeaway from traveling over covid is that everywhere that is "tier 2" is now almost as expensive as every tier 1 city outside of NYC. I think lowkey the hot move is to live somewhere just outside of a tier 1 city. For example, get a spot in Oakland / Berkeley and commute to SF for work when necessary (short bart ride away). You have access to all the same jobs / entertainment / nightlife etc. and with remote work, the one-two days a week I am forced to commute isn't too bad. Still would get a great lifestyle and not as much stress.

The above isn't particular to Bay Area, I'd consider places a bit further outside of Manhattan etc. Tier 2 cities I think that are worth it are San Diego, maybe somewhere in North Carolina? (never lived there but I have a boner for Asheville), and possibly Nashville, DC and Atlanta?

Also depends on your ethnicity too I think, as a non-white person my list of tier 2 cities I'd care to live in is very low. Like I loved my time in SLC but I would really struggle to find a solid community there. Would have to get a dog and hike/fish every weekend but dating and friends circle would be very limited.

 

Why does not being white matter for what city you live in? I guess I’m pretty white washed cause I grew up with all white kids in the Midwest and most of the people I hang out with are white, but I don’t see race every influencing where I live?

 

I get your point but I have friends who've mentioned this before.

Say you're in an interracial relationship with a white woman and you want to move to a nice suburb of Birmingham or even the Woodlands in Houston. A lot of people still look down upon that unfortunately and that heavily would influence me if I was in that position. There are areas all over this country that haven't moved past a 1950s mindset. 

 

I've noticed this too. I recently went to Austin and was appalled at how expensive it was. It's definitely a cool city and you certainly get a lot more for your dollar there than you would in NYC/SF, but it's not "cheap" by any means. I decided to look at rents downtown, and even midrises were going for upwards of $2.5K for a 1BDR. This is crazy to me because Chicago, which is a much bigger city and has access to a lot more, is around the same price, maybe slightly more. Yes, I'd save on income tax and get a bigger living space, but I feel like I'd rather pay slightly more and live in a slightly smaller space in Chicago than Austin by a good margin. It'd make more sense to buy in Austin and then take remote trips out (if your work allows) than it would to rent there IMO.

Now granted, if you go a bit further out, the rents accordingly also drop (slightly), but I definitely agree with you that pretty much all cities are expensive now if they're even remotely famous among Gen Z/Milennials. I just don't see how this is sustainable because I'm doing quite well for my age (by non-WSO/Blind standards) but can barely afford a 1BDR in a nice building in most cities nowadays. 

 

haha dude i felt the exact same way. I was in Austin over covid for 2 months trying to see if i'd want to live there longer term and the price for what you get equation made no sense to me. Especially if I'm renting, if I wanted that same lifestyle but better weather, food, etc. I'd pay like $200/mo in rent and income taxes to live in SoCal.

T2 pricing, especially post covid, has gotten so wild it makes no sense from a $ for me anymore

 

Chicago and Dallas are like Tier 1.5 cities. I would not discount them based on cost of living or WLB.

Would also look into Charlotte, Nashville, Miami (even though its not LCOL), Atlanta, Kansas City, St Louis, Ft Worth, Denver, Portland/Seattle if PNW is your thing, Minneapolis if you can handle the cold. Really depends on what you are into. In some of these cities though your comp could be significantly be depressed compared to larger ones.

 

Boston is nice, but it’s reflected in the price. Also, best once you have kids. Great schools, healthcare, and lots of weekend destinations within a few hour drive. Schools let out early on Fridays and many people leave early…to make dinner at said weekend place. Small size, but lots of amenities for the size. Lots of international folks with the research centers, higher education, and healthcare. Expensive though.

 

It depends a lot on what your priorities are.  The answers on here to dogmatically call a city terrible is immature and shows a tremendous lack of perspective on life.

When you are poor, have nothing but upside in career, don't mind sleeping at work, paying high taxes, no family,  hook up culture etc...NYC can't be beat but it changes a lot after you have money, family, career is more stable, etc.

 

I mean if you’re 40 with a family there’s probably no difference from a QOL in any of these cities as suburbs are fairly cookie cutter, unless there is an outdoor feature you value in particular. Thread is geared towards early-late 20s obviously.

Array
 

Now this I agree. You move to tier 1 in 20s - early 30s for the experience, connections, city life, etc. But tbh if you stay afterwards you are a bit of a sucker.

There is no difference. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. from overpaying for a suburb outside Manhattan, or Chicago, or wherever compared to a Columbus, Indianapolis, Nashville, etc. All suburbs are the same - same chain restaurants - same designer shops - same type of country club access etc. You might tell yourself the A tier city is better because of the better school systems (lol if you believe this), job opportunities, things to do (how often are you taking that 45 minute train to see a show in the city?) while paying twice as much for everything. It's absurd.

Even more funny if you are a commuter for work. COVID changed this for most thank god but if you lived in a suburb of a major city paying major city expenses and commuted an hour downtown to work you are the biggest sucker in the world.

 

People talk shit on here (myself included), but I think most rational adults understand that there are valid reasons to live literally everywhere in the world - NYC and London, LA and Tokyo, Denver, Tampa, Memphis, Bismarck, Juneau… all are great fits for someone, and all have irrational people who couldn’t imagine why someone would want to live somewhere else. A lot of people on here are younger, ambitious, upwardly-mobile finance professionals, so there are certain cities that are more likely to appeal, but everyone’s unique - there’s no ubiquitiously “perfect fit” anywhere on Earth

 

Maybe I missed it so sorry if anyone has already mentioned it, but I think Charlotte could be categorized as a solid Tier 2 city in terms of size (about a million residents) with a high quality of life (traffic isn't as bad as places like Atlanta or Austin and the weather is mild in the winter with maybe a week or two of freezing temps).Only downside is that it is a city built by bankers and for bankers. So if you want some variety in your social group (i.e. outside the typical corporate culture) this may not be a good fit. Also, there isn't really a whole lot to do there aside from family activities like parks, sporting events (Panthers, Hornets and the new MLS team) and some hiking spots outside the city (which are just okay and nothing challenging)Big advantage however is that the airport is easily accessible from virtually every part of the city and is an American Airlines hub so you can take affordable weekend trips pretty much all throughout the country.

(Fwiw, I live in NYC and have no intentions of moving, but I’m sure if I did, CLT would be on the shortlist if I had my choice)

 

Charleston is Voted the #1 City in the World & #1 City in the U.S. and Canada

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee
 

Anyone think the Texas cities have kind of just fallen off in general outside Austin? Saw the comment earlier by the Dallas guy and Uptown sucking - agree something similar has happened in Houston. Even Austin, as a Texas native, it has changed A LOT in terms of its old cultural caché. I still like it but less and for different reasons. Austin downtown has gotten too glitzy and its music scene has fallen off.

I think the Southeast might be better now…

 

Odd but interesting comment.  I'm also from TX originally.  Austin is obviously growing but from a very small base and lacks the world class institutions. I think that Houston and Dallas are diverging with Dallas having a much more diversified economy and generally being a better place to live.  It's not as appealing for analysts but can't be beat for a family (quality of life, convenience, schools, etc). Do you really want to marry woke, entitled NYC/SF/LA.   chicks? Absolute disaster and I'd like to move back some day.  Can the park cities be beat?  The only issue is lack of respectable colleges in the area. 

 

I’m not disagreeing with you that NYC is more liberal than Dallas but the leftward shift in the DFW area brought on by transplants is undeniable. Trump couldn’t even win Tarrant County or SMU. Uptown now has like a 20% gap between D and R (favoring D) when it used to lean red. If you’re looking for conservative girls, Dallas is certainly easier than NYC but it is no longer as simple as just walking into a bar and talking to the first girl you meet. 

Array
 
recoveringcpa

Anyone think the Texas cities have kind of just fallen off in general outside Austin? Saw the comment earlier by the Dallas guy and Uptown sucking - agree something similar has happened in Houston. Even Austin, as a Texas native, it has changed A LOT in terms of its old cultural caché. I still like it but less and for different reasons. Austin downtown has gotten too glitzy and its music scene has fallen off.

I think the Southeast might be better now…

Thanks to a certain cohort of the American population moving to Texas by the droves. Everything that made these cities great, is slowly eroding away 

 

Galleria/RO shopping district area sees some instances of violence when drug dealers decide to go shopping and end up shooting each other. Downtown/Midtown is fine. If you are not actively involved in gang life it is unlikely you will ever be involved in a violent crime.

 

While I don’t use Reddit for the most part, I have found r/[insert city] to be very helpful in providing advice. One thing I will say that is Reddit tends to downplay crime, so make sure to find a crime map for the area you are interested and verify it is a good area. When doing this though, please take “credit crime scores” with a grain of salt as crime rate is calculated by dividing the number of crimes by the number of permanent residents in the area. If a lot of tourists come to the area you want to stay in you will pretty much always see a D or F rating for these areas because they do not take into account all the tourists. This is why it is better to look at incident crime maps to understand whether the neighborhood is really sketchy or the incidents are isolated and driven by stupidity, alcohol, etc.

Array
 

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