Serious question, how rough is life at Apollo? Long hours obviously to be expected at any MF, but would love any first or recent second hand input. Everyone seems to chuckle and describe it as a horror show but how awful is it really?
Mod Note: see a related post on Apollo: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/from-a-lev…
| +26 | VP Level - when to follow up after final round | 10 | 2d | |
| +24 | Sr Asso / VP Unemployment Check-in | 11 | 4s | |
| +21 | Public company LBO | 8 | 2h | |
| +20 | Vista Lateral Associate | 12 | 19h | |
| +20 | How much does fit actually matter to you? | 5 | 20m | |
| +16 | Resume Gap after 2.5 Years in PE | 4 | 37m | |
| +16 | IB/PE Lifers, Was It Worth It? | 5 | 1d | |
| +15 | Anyone here work at 777? | 15 | 14h | |
| +14 | Why is Blackstone so dominant? | 9 | 3d | |
| +14 | Banner Ridge | 27 | 1h |
Career Resources
Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling.
Yeah its pretty fucking bad lol. Know a guy who developed stomach ulcers from the stress of working there.
Not to be a dick, but if you're actually a principal in PE shouldn't you already know the answer? Odds you are you would know someone or know someone who knows someone who's worked there, or maybe come across them on a deal when you were in banking, etc...
Maybe not everyone but PE is really small. Probably 70% of the time I am going to talk to someone in PE we have a mutual contact and I haven't been in it very long. I don't network that much either.
A few people from my bank are going to Apollo. When I was gearing up for PE recruiting and asked them about the no b-school required and ability to just stay this is what one said:
“if you can make it through your 4 years as an associate at Apollo, who cares. Most people don’t finish their first 2-3 years because of how bad it gets. I don’t know if I’ll even make it to the finish line. For them, if you can get through that hell you are absolutely welcome to stay”
Long story short: yes it’s fucking that bad
When I interviewed at Apollo, the guy interviewing me literally asked me "Are you sure you want to work here? We work really hard on really hairy, complicated deals that other funds don't usually look at" and continued to make sure I knew what I was getting myself into. Definitely gave off some intense vibes.
nuanced, complicated, complex, novel
There's frankly not a justification for going to Apollo over other MF/UMMs unless you immediately need an extra 30-60K post-tax, plan on focusing purely on your career to the detriment of your life for 6-8 years to make an attempt to climb up, or have no other options. Apollo-style investing and experience can be done at other, high performing large funds with a better associate experience. As a place to work, there are few to no redeeming features.
Frame Apollo as a place that has to pay more to sucker in the best analysts that could and should go elsewhere rather than a place that chooses to pay the most. And given the relatively little support in finding exits after 2 years, you are relying on the Apollo brand and experience to help you find something else once you burn out. It's the kind of place that unfortunately breaks some of the weaker associates causing longer term psychological and career damage. And if you are doing your DD after receiving an offer, I implore you to reach out to former associates that had good exits coming out of their associate years.
5 hours of sleep or less, 7 days a week, on calls nonstop for 3 live deals, screening 3 new things, and managing 4 portcos, all of which are hairy, complex, and challenging, for years straight, how bad could it be?
No one takes time off, especially in LA. Sometimes go a whole year with no time off.
speaking as someone who has been purely sell side (lev fin), they are the one sponsor I would pay part of my bonus to never ever work with ever
During my time in IB, I've worked on 3 deals with Apollo, two being pretty large take privates. On 2 of the deals, we did some M&A advisory, and lead left financing on all 3. Their deal teams are slim (2-3 people from PE, 1-2 from cap markets negotiating terms with banks) and the associates were always plugged in until around 3-4am, including weekends.
A lot of people have been asking about what hairy actually means in Apollo context. It is often taking a very contrarian view of a situation and peeling back numerous layers of crap to find a gem within a business. For example, if a business is meaningfully declining in overall revenue, but there are 2-3 core segments that are growing, Apollo will figure out a way to divest the underperfoming assets and focus on the core business. Additionally, they often will do simultaneous LBOs and merge 2 competitors together, in their eyes yielding a ton of run-rate cost savings (not always achieved, but great for getting a ton of financing and putting up lower equity in a transaction). Most of their purchases are sub 9x EBITDA, often purchased through broken sales processes or take privates where the equity markets see little to no hope for a business.
Might get a lot of MS for the candid picture painted above, but the strategy clearly works. Apollo has been extremely successful; there are a lot of ways to make a return.
Very helpful description of Apollo's business model, which has its roots in Milken, who was the ultimate contrarian during his days and made a lot of money by buying, issuing and placing bonds of hundreds of Shitcos in his day. Leon Black was one of the most fervent Milken disciples and in a way, Apollo is a continuation/evolution of Milken's Drexel.
LA is the worst office of Apollo. Huge turnover for good reason. Associates have just a miserable experience there, made worse by the fact that recruiting away is almost impossible. Basically a nightmare for most associates.
I generally agree with this based on having two acquaintances that went through Apollo LA.
The churn is real and it's easily verifiable. LA is one of those megafund offices where every year there is at least one recruiter search that happens for a lateral associate position. Like clockwork, the posting comes up every single year.
Others have already thoroughly covered the lifestyle points. One thing I will add though based on keeping in touch with these guys--which I found a little surprising--are the other stressors present as an associate. Basically these guys were constantly worried their heads were on the chopping block and they could lose their job there any day. Both are hard-working, intelligent people that earned their spots there, so it was surprising to hear this. Neither of them lasted more than 2-3 years.
I think a work environment like that would be extremely demoralizing coupled with the extreme hours and commitment to your job. You'd think if you're working that hard and doing a good job, you'd at least feel somewhat valued and could even see a bright future for yourself there. Pulling those kind of hours and constantly worrying about the prospect of getting canned has to be psychologically tolling to say the least.
Jesus Christ a bunch of pusses on this forum
Lots of alums, current employees, and advisors in this thread confirming it’s a burnout-inducing hellscape, but by all means, continue jerking off to their ‘prestige’ and/or the thought you’d somehow fare better.
IB at it’s worst can’t touch the depths of PE, especially at a place like Apollo. 99.9% of the time when you’re getting “crushed,” it’s brainless work that you can mindlessly do half-tuned out with music on. You’re changing every instance of green in the deck to a slightly brighter shade at 3AM. The guy at Apollo is building out, substantiating (at micro and macro levels), and preparing a business plan for a new downside case. And he’ll have to be sharp for the 8AM call to present and defend it all.
Aka making educated guesses. Always lol at iNsAnE fiNaNcIaL mOdElInG
“Analyst 1”
Current Apollo guy. Yes it's that bad. It sucks, culture is awful with egomaniacal dudes who create an incredibly political atmosphere (again, only guys) and run you to the fucking ground with arbitrary deadlines, verbal berating time to time, and basically a banking 2.0 on steroids vibe. It is not for anyone without a thick skin. People can say if you can't / don't want to handle the culture you're a pussy, but that just isn't true. Try dealing with it day in day out including weekends. And it's not banking where you have a bunch of downtime to bullshit around with colleagues and whatnot. It actually is nonstop so do beware if you are considering signing.
That being said, what people above have said is right. If you can cut it in this shitty culture, you will be fine wherever else you go.
Also, this is a megafund, you will likely work on a TON of opps which don't go anywhere but are a fuck ton of work. If I could do it again I'd go to a MM fund.
EDIT: I can't make an APO complaint post without mentioning how shit the hours are. I honestly miss banking hours sometimes. The unpredictability in my schedule has actually worstened thanks to principals / newly minted partners who want to make their make their mark or present opps to IC
So for me it's a lot of frustration rising from not being able to see entire transactions through and having no closed deals under my belt, even though I spend so much time balls deep in diligence or evaluating new opps. My friends at other MM funds have seen not only the closure of platform deals but additional tuck-ins which, in my mind, must be so much more satisfying seeing the actual platform strategy pan out. Maybe I'm of a grass is greener mentality but the grass ain't anything close to green here
Does a business model like this make sense in the long-term? Having such high turnover? I get it for BBs because they are huge and have an endless supply of talent to choose from, but is this sustainable for Apollo? Different industry, but I've seen over the years this didn't work out for LEK (at least in Europe). People wanted to go there, but the brutal hours forced management to implement a culture change as having the majority of your best and brightest consistently leave after 18-24 months is not great for business.
.not necessarily
Lol scrolling through and just had to point out, comparing Apollo to LEK is like comparing a Victoria Secret model to an 80-year old grandma because (i) there is just no comparison, and (ii) LEK is almost dead
Aside from Apollo, curious to hear what other PE firms have a reputation for bad hours and culture?
For example, former analysts of mine who went to KKR and Silverlake have said that it was really bad there. Said it made the hours in banking look like a walk in the park. One former analyst went to Apollo. Said that he hated it for all the reasons above. He exited after two years to bschool and is now at a UMM PE firm, where he has been for a long time and is quite happy.
If your deal team (of cool people) is genuinely biting off more than it probably should chew, then it can be a high-hours/good-culture experience. Senior guys super-involved (and instructory), deadlines process-forced rather than arbitrary, people encouraging rather than berating, etc.
In short, if everyone’s “got your back” rather than “take my fall,” same amount of work feels a lot different.
That is because you haven't gone through bad culture, my friend.
When I worked in HY sales/cap markets, one MD said that Leon Black is the Emperor Palpatine of private equity after we placed an especially shitty loan for APO. I sorta picture all the associates and junior employees as storm troopers and partners as imperial admirals. I have heard nothing but the worst things about working as a associate at APO. The senior guys at Apollo are really smart and there is a reason that APO has been around as long as it has and has grown as much as it has. I would also that any debt APO raises for its portfolio companies trades with an APO discount because you know that Apollo is going to fuck you over.
I just did a write up on one of my experiences on the LevFin side on an Apollo deal. Absolutely brutal, their associates have always stayed up till the full 2-3am during my deals and their Principal / MDs are just bat shit insane.
Check out my post: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/from-a-levfin-banker-this-is-how…
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-01-16/nobody-makes-money-l…
In a few words: Y, it's pretty bad. The lifestyle, the people, the culture.
In more than a few words...
In my opinion your first few years out of school should be spent credentializing yourself. If you went to Ohio State and now work at Apollo, that has resulted in a step function change to your career trajectory and the caliber of opportunities available to you thereafter. If you went to Wharton, then Goldman, then Apollo, it still does quite a bit IMO because you've now branded yourself with premier pedigree at every phase of your adult life. It's a different calculus than Wharton, Goldman, Onex. There's nothing wrong with Onex. But showing a track record of the absolute best pedigree tells me that in HS you were the best and so got to Wharton, you were at Wharton and were the best so got to Goldman, you were at Goldman and were the best so got to Apollo. You have successively proven yourself to be uncommon even among uncommon people (to borrow from David Goggins). The Onex trajectory tells me that you've been the best until around GS, and then since then you've basically leveled off and are in a peer group that is appropriate.
People will pick at this logic, but there's a reason there is such a strong focus on pedigree in this industry.
The other caveat here is that this is most important in the first 5-7 years out of college. If you're a 35-40 year old choosing one firm over another because of pedigree/brand allure, you're a bit of a doofus unless you think that pedigree will either help you launch your own fund in the future (very few people have that intention) or will help you source investments.
I understand your logic and generally agree with it, but I certainly no longer think the top analysts at GS/MS pursue Apollo in this manner; they didn't when I was recruiting 5 years ago, and I would imagine that is even more so the case today.
The frankly terrible reputation in terms of hours / culture has persisted for quite a while now. Do you go to the Apollo interview if you get it? Sure. But I can't think of anyone in my analyst class who wanted to join Apollo and who would have taken it if they had other offers (for 2 of them this was the case). While it still carries with it the "MF" branding, the likes of GA, Advent, H&F, CD&R, New Mountain, Crestview, MDP were all much more coveted than Apollo. FWIW, Apollo was always the easist interview to get, nowhere comparable to KKR, BX, or TPG which basically interviewed from 2-3 groups at the top banks.
And just to add my 2 cents - yes, it is just as bad as everyone warns. When we worked with them on a deal process they would regularly ask for calls at 12-1am, and these requests came from the MD on the deal, not the associates. Some of the guys there are definitely extremely bright, but I found them unbearable to work in a process. The credit side of things is a bit better vs. their traditional PE strategy.
Many top analysts still pursue Apollo. I’m friends with a few of them. Generally it’s the analysts that are stellar but have no life, and are obsessed with money / prestige / promotion that go there and do well.
Apollo has a ton to offer those candidates: - highest Year 1 comp (~400k increasing ~100k per year) - 4 years to principal (~$2mm a year including annualized carry) and 9.5 years to Partner (~$5-10mm a year) without business school. This is a very accelerated promotion timeline compared to most megafunds - top HF exits: Tiger, Viking, Lone Pine, amongst others - best in class brand
A few years back they had fewer than 10 associates in NY. Bonuses are paid out in January and the new class comes in August, so high turnover years meant the remaining associates would get annihilated during the winter and spring months. The summers aren’t too bad, during which the hours are maybe 70-80 per week. They’ve expanded junior headcount (and added a number of women) which has improved work-life balance, to a degree, and has also diluted the quality of candidates they hire, to a degree.
For everyone here bad-mouthing Apollo, there are actually quite a few associates that stay on to Principal and then Partner. Apollo almost never hires externally. Their associates often have the option to make $500k+ working 50-60 hour weeks at HFs. Their ability to retain those associates implies they’re doing something right.
I’m glad I didn’t go there.
Why do you think Apollo renders that kind of pedigree? Doesn't Apollo have a terrible reputation both inside and outside the finance world (as per this thread and a continuous stream of negative news in FT, WSJ, etc.)?
Especially in a world where Principles for Responsible Investing and ESG issues matter more and more, isn't Apollo positioned very poorly for the future? I don't see how having worked at Apollo will give you credibility in 5-10 years, when these trends become even more prominent. When you're a 40 year exec, the younger generation will probably despise you and "expose you for having worked at Apollo" haha...
Meanwhile, I can see how firms like Blackstone and Carlyle would still render you credibility both in the finance and in the political world.
https://hbr.org/2012/03/psychopaths-on-wall-street
Significant % people in Finance are sociopaths. There are just more of them at apollo. Entitled, arrogant, even sadistic in some cases. People coming in never quite believe how bad it is until they are actually there, despite all the prior warnings.
Not sure I understand what you are even asking. There are an infinite # of vectors for "reputation".
They have a horrible reputation if you are an investment banker trying to get them to pay you. Or if you are a lender that is on the other end of a negotiation with them. They have a horrible reputation is you're an AOC-style Democrat, as does the rest of PE.
They have a premier reputation as investors / money makers. Their returns are not top quartile, they are not top decile, they are top single-percentile. They are hands down the best money makers out there. In my opinion, that's the only thing that matters in terms of their ". They also have a phenenomal reputation as a place to spend the first handful of years in your career. They have a phenomenal reputation for comp and a place to get rich.
ESG is nonsense. It's marketing bullshit. Not to mention, Apollo may very well have a pretty good ESG score -- you have no idea. You just think they don't because its Apollo. ESG has less to do with if you are sharp elbowed or mean to your investment bankers, it has more to do with diversity composition, sustainability initiatives / carbon footprint, charitable giving, etc. Not with how hard you make your Associates work, or what % of your lenders you bend over a barrel. If you have a decent IR and marketing team, they have already engineered your ESG allure. PE has been doing this ESG stuff for 10-20 years, you're just now reading about it because its in the media and public companies are getting pressured to buy into it as well.
If as a 24 year old you're more worried about their ESG score than the above few items, then yeah, Apollo is not a place for you to go, but frankly that woulnd't be your choice to begin with.
Let it not be forgotten that graeme / wallstreethermit / whatever he changes his name to next has posted in this thread alone 28 times or 15% of the total comments, before accounting for other comments either under another username or anonymously, because he's fucking psychotic.