Is It Worth It
I recently finished interviewing at one of the larger development firms that focuses on mix used. I was literally asked,"are you ready to work 7 days a week?" Has anyone ever heard something like that? I know we all have to work hard but to be expected 7 days a week! The role is only an analyst role. Should I even take this company seriously. How much would be expected to get paid to work that damn much? Any thoughts would be helpful?
what level is this?
They it’s an analyst role but at this company I would be an more like a senior associate. I have over 5 years of experience.
Greystone?
Greystone that bad / sweaty? Had an offer from them for production but turned it down for a competitor.
I am the same guy. Haven’t got an offer yet. Now they want to give me an hour long excel test. I totally agree with what you’re saying and I do have a good job the pay is just shit. 90k at non profit affordable housing developer. With no bonus!
Had to take it right before the pandemic because the last shop I was at was a disaster and had to get out of there quickly. Didn’t want to show anymore gaps in my resume because before that was I laid off from a job where I was making 130k. Took me 9 month to find that job that ended being the worst ran place I’ve ever worked at. Real estate is a fucking journey as you can see. I guess I’ll just need to wait it out for more development gigs to open in 2021. I guess I just have to be patient to get back to where I was.
I assume the salary range is what you’ve estimated. No offer yet but I know I’m one of the last three candidates.
I gather from the post and back and forth, that you are apply at one of the big name NYC developers, whether that is the case or not, won't change my thoughts (but, it does make it less surprising lol)....
So, my initial first impression is that this is a "trial balloon" type question to see how you react and gage if you are true hardo or not. Meaning, they really don't think you will be working 7 days most of the time, but they want to see how you feel about it. I actually reminds me of a question I got when interviewing for position with small, boutique REIB outlet... the question basically was "It's 6pm, and your MD hands you 8 hours of extra work, how do you manage it"...... this was not a rhetorical question, it had a right answer, something like "well, I guess I'm staying till 2am!". Anyone who says something like "well, I will try and manage around it, prioritize, get help, adjust expectations, blah blah blah" didn't get the nature of the biz and was probably weeded out.
I answered the right way, and got the job! Did I stay till 2am a lot? No, hardly ever (maybe a few times), we all left by 8pm at the latest (unless a business dinner). Same for the weekends, did I come in some Saturdays? Yes of course, but not all. And yeah, some Sunday evenings required calls or even come to office to prep or do stuff required before Monday morning. This was all the time, and the partners of the firm (it was like 6 of us in total) would absolutely understand and flex time later as needed.
The point was, how dedicated are you when deals are on the line? That's it. So, I somewhat suspect that is the deal with that question, weed out who they see as "pikers" and just hire the "hardos". Does that mean it is probably a sweatshop? YES absolutely, but if the job has the prestige factor, and you can sustain for a few years may totally be worth it (way too personal for me to judge TBH).
Honestly, this 7-day a week mentality seems off place for development firms, but some of the NYC firms basically adapt culture and work habits from wall street, so I guess it is possible. Generally, hours and work-life balance is one of the "perks" of the development industry, at least compared to brokerage, investment banking, and some private equity funds.
Staying late and/or working on the weekends is rare at my firm (I mean, usually only a factor when a closing or deal pursuit is underway generally, which is probably only a few times a year for each team). Most leave for home by 6pm, and flexing time is very easy. You need to be mega on top of your shit, but work/life balance is totally respected. This seems to be closer to the norm in most of the development world, exceptions noted.
So, if you are looking for a pathway, there may be great learning here. Do I really think this is a 365 day a year job? NO, but they will probably have you busy on weekends a good amount of the time. Doing sweatshop jobs can be worth it, you actually do learn a lot fast, which can totally propel you. If you get the offer, you get to decide!
I totally agree with what you're saying as it being a gotcha question. I answered correctly and I'm moving on but I do find it disrespectful.
I just know how my wife's interview process to work at one the top 3 management consulting companies and friends that have worked at Google and Facebook have been. Way more transparent about process, expectation, work setting, etc. Real estate companies need to lighten up. I have to be frank, fuck them playing games during the interview. As a black person every move has to be perfect. I can't afford to make mistakes. Still pissed off I was sidelined 9 months when I had the credentials and recommendation from the company I was laid off from.
I hear you on accelerating my career at a sweatshop, but I see how the process is bias. I've done so many interview where they've just trying to get a "feel for me." Bullshit interview questions by people that walked into these jobs 20 years ago because competition for these jobs were low. This will bite real industry in the ass in the future if they don't become more professional. End rant LOL.
Yeah, I totally agree with you on this. This seems to be very NYC centric, and really amongst the firms dominated by "finance bro culture". I am at the point in my career where I would not work for firms with this culture, but sometimes it can be worth it early in a career. Honestly, I would respect any decision you make on this one (under assumption you get the offer).
If offered, and you take it, always keep in mind the wall street mantra of "nothing personal, only money". Is that shitty? YES, but if you let it get to you personally, you will be miserable. I would view it as a means to an ends, always keep that in mind. That's why analysts roles are setup as "stints", they know they will burn people out, piss them off, and they will quit by year 3 typically. Personally, I don't see how that makes sense in real estate like it kinda does in i-banking, but old habits die hard.
I work for an owner/developer on our acquisitions team. I work with our development team pretty closely on a project to project basis... I like to think we're busy, we have several projects on the docket, but none of us work 7 days a week on a consistent basis. We get everything done that we need to. People definitely work the weekends, I will have to work a few hours this weekend, but its not killer, I squeeze the hours in where I see fit. I answer emails and field brief requests and make myself available 7 days a week, but that's standard procedure. I rarely do "real" work 7 days in a row. The situation you're describing sounds worse than mine.
I don't think what you're describing is worth it, I used to do the whole 7 days a week, always on edge, 2 am nights all the time shtick... never again, unless its for my own business or my own investments. I also don't think its on par with the rest of the industry... I would seek an alternative fund or dev shop to work for if possible. But if its your only opportunity to get relevant experience, I'd take that into consideration as well.
Thanks for the input. I agree. Only if it’s your own company. Hopefully this recovery is real to allow for some better dev roles in Spring 2021.
Hey just to give my perspective as I’m at a total sweatshop and people don’t understand why I do it. For me, it’s really hard and I sacrifice a lot for my job. However, it’s also extremely rewarding and the compensation is high. As long as I keep at it, I can either make my way up the company and reap even higher compensation, or I can lateral to a less sweaty shop easily and have more free time. I’ve been in both sides of the river and there’s pros and cons to each. The important question is what do you want? If you’re a compensation and prestige whore, take the job. You’ll be proud of your hard work and will be compensated accordingly. If life balance is more important to you and you’d like to live a slightly less lavish live, don’t take it. Whatever excites you most is probably your answer.
I’m a third year analyst and my all in comp target is $180k, but I’m expecting $200k based on my performance this year. For context, I work almost every weekend, 70-80 hours a week (I’d say I’m very good at my job and the workload still very intense). Hoping for a big jump to associate. Won’t be worth it (to me) unless I’m making $220k or more next year.
I think this is well said, I would add, don't take a role like that for the $$$, take it for the experience and adventure/learning. Chasing $$$ will usually lead to unhappiness, but if you see a "prestige" name as a means to the ultimate ends then your time can be more seen as a "tour of duty" than a career step.
Yes, absolutely would factor in the experience you’d be getting. In general, the more hours, the more you learn. I love Elon Musk’s thoughts about working 100 hours a week and the potential career/skills trajectory.
I don't quite know how I'd interpret a question like that. I'd immediately think they are a sweatshop that really grinds it out regularly because what's the point of scaring a candidate if it turns out the occasional late night or weekend work is not that regular? You could just hack it for a couple of years if it could lead to other opportunities that might be even better money and less of a grind.
I did interview for a job last year where I made it three rounds in, and the MD asked if I was going to make myself available on weekends and late nights to complete something if it came up and needed to be done. I just said "yes" to it and stated that I had no other commitments and was there to push myself in my career. I got an offer for the job, but ended up not taking it, partly because of that reason. It paid a whole lot better than what I was making at the time, but I value work-life balance more. If work was so continuous and didn't stop on the weekends or late in the evening, could I go on a one or two week vacation without worrying about what I'd need to get back to? how about just a couple of days? 50 to 60 hours of work in a week are fine, but when it goes over that it's hard to tell if it's still worth it.
Just my two cents - I never understood firms who have their workers consistently going until midnight during the week and putting in a half to full day Saturday or Sunday (or both). It’s not sustainable and it’s a crazy part of the NYC culture that I don’t get. Personally, I can’t do it. I need time to decompress. I think it’s important to recognize and think about what do you want out of life and your career. I’ve been in situations where I worked 7 days per week, and by the end of it, I can’t even check my own work. For me, being able to take a step back and finish by 8 every night during the week (which outside NYC is crazy in its own right) gives me time to decompress, think and solve issues. If you’re working 24/7, many people can’t see the forest through the trees and begin to make mistakes.
Although not true all the time, my experience has been those that work 7 days per week are generally unhappy in other areas of life. And so they commit to just work and make others miserable with them. Again - not always true but just what I’ve run up against. I’ll personally trade a normal 40-55 hour work week for less compensation, but I had to learn it. I didn’t always feel this way.
Additionally, I look at it this way. The firms that work you to the bone don’t care about you. And in the interview process they tell you that you can grow and learn here. We will teach you. In reality, they just need “a**es in seats” to grind to a pulp and get work done. Two years later you’re out and burnt to a crisp.
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