Should I try to move cities?
Hi all,
I hope you're doing well. Currently, I'm a 24 yo who has been working for over a year since graduating from college. My life has been quite comfortable as a result of living in the same major Southern US city where I grew up (aside from in-state college) which has allowed me to have many friends who grew up here or went to college with me, but only have a few sprinkled in from elsewhere. Due to this, I have never been uncomfortable or had to challenge myself to grow as I have essentially lived the same life for the past 24 years.
During a work trip last fall, I had the opportunity to visit New York City, and I was immediately captivated by the city's energy and the range of people. Since then, I have had the desire to move to NYC. I've also had the chance to visit friends who live there and have always had a fun time, although these visits were more partying than living in the city.
Now, the dilemma I face is this: I earned approximately $120K last year and have been able to save a lot of money. However, in New York City, it would be challenging to maintain the same standard of living that I currently enjoy while saving money. I've spoken to a coworker in the NYC office who I work with semi-frequently (an associate) and he seemed to believe that relocating would be relatively easy, as people within our company have transferred between offices across the country. If I were to make an internal move, my salary would likely increase slightly (although I don't have data points), but it wouldn't be sufficient to cover the higher cost of living. Another option I'm considering is switching to a different company after completing my second year (as I believe having at least two years of experience at my current job would benefit my CV) if I cannot move internally.
Is it worth the risk to move to NYC given the fact that I may not like it and it will be very different than what I am used to? My current city has a lot of real estate opportunities so it isn't like I cannot have a good career here.
Thanks
This is a very difficult question to answer, and ultimately, it comes down to a personal choice. I'll try to offer you some observations as someone who has lived in every region of the country, and who has lived in NYC for about the last 13 years.
- It's good to get a flavor for different people and places, especially while you're still young and presumably still fairly unencumbered. That being said, right now is about the worst it's been in NYC during my 13 years living here. Post COVID, the city just seems lifeless. A lot of local institutions closed down permanently. The city doesn't have the energy it used to. It also has more political, fiscal, and criminal problems than it has had for a long time, and it's showing now. On the other hand, you felt captivated by your perception of the city's energy, so this is all relative. Maybe for someone like you, and at your age, it will take years before you start feeling firsthand any of what I just described.
- There is a different place you should be for every season of your life, and so, like I was saying above, moving around and having diverse experiences can not only be good, but be very appropriate depending on what's motivating you at that time in your life. That having been said, try to also value what you have. For example, building new friendships becomes much harder as you get older. You tend to start developing more and more of your relationships on the basis of your shared profession. Often, these become very transactional relationships, particularly in NYC where people are extremely transactional. Be careful that you do not lose your existing friendships, of which it sounds you have many. They will become more and more precious to you later once you get sick and tired of the professional whoring that is done in NYC. Unfortunately, time and distance can do a number to those friendships you'd be leaving if they aren't frequently nurtured.
- It becomes very difficult to leave NYC once you develop a certain lifestyle here, both financially as well as the routines and convenience you get used to. You might make more money than you ever thought possible here, yet find yourself too unable to leave due to the opportunity cost or real costs you need to find a way to fund, which might be impossible in lower earning geographies.
- Do not attempt to raise a family here. As someone who grew up on lots of land, and among nice and normal people, this is not the kind of environment my wife and I want for our kids in a couple years from now.
- Have an exit strategy. If you're going to come here, it may absolutely make sense to do it, but I highly encourage you to set some time limits and/or milestones so that you know why you're here, what you want to achieve, and recognize when it's time to return to the real world.
Living here is not the same as visiting. There is a huge life adjustment to be made. No more loading your car up with your groceries - instead you will be trekking them multiple blocks or racking up Instacart fees. And if you are walking them down the street, you can only buy as much as you can carry. Now imagine having to do this in the cold/snow/rain. Along with that is laundry. In unit laundry is an actual luxury here. You'll have to trek your laundry to your nearest laundromat as well unless you want to pay for wash & fold (I'm personally not a fan of randoms handling my laundry). My parents live an hour outside of the city so whenever I visit them for the day I load a suitcase up with as much dirty laundry as I can and wash it at their house. But if you're not from the area you won't have the luxury of being able to do things like this. You can't really be super picky with apartments until you're making a ridiculous amount of money also. You're going to have to compromise a lot. At your salary, you'd only be able to afford a place up to $3k so I would look on Streeteasy to get an idea of what kind of apartments you could afford. You'll see a lot of white refrigerators and stoves that look like they're from the 1940s if you are looking in Manhattan at that price point. This is completely normal here. I'm lucky enough to have a stainless steel refrigerator with an ice maker in my $2.7k/month apartment in Lower Manhattan and when I have people over they can't even believe their eyes. You'd think I was showing them a $50 million lottery ticket.
The city is still facing a mass exodus with a lot of people moving to states like FL and TX. The thing is that most of the people leaving are making a lot of money to where moving to a no income tax state increases their income significantly. Basically, most of these people are very wealthy so them leaving isn't exactly freeing up the cheaper apartments.
I say do it. You said it yourself - you're too comfortable where you're at. I had the same dilemma and chose to do it for the same reason, and it really did make me grow quickly as a person.
By the way, you're 24 - I don't think living in NYC will cost you as much more as you think. For one you'll ditch the car which saves probably a few hundred a month minimum, and second as someone young and single you can get a roommate and reduce your rent. Also not sure how much you travel, but when I lived in a smaller place I was constantly flying to other cities to visit friends because I was bored, and when I moved to a big city I found myself needing to leave less.
If you don't like it, just move back! They'll always have you back, but it will become more and more difficult to leave your current city as you get older - especially to New York. NYC firms typically don't hire too many people from smaller markets, especially as you get to higher levels. Plus, going to NYC for a couple years will only make you more interesting as a person if you return home, and probably teaches you new perspectives. It might also kick you into a higher gear being around more people gunning in their respective careers.
Wow, thank you all very much for the detailed and lengthy responses. I appreciate the time that each of you spent pitching your thoughts. The positives and negatives stated in the three help me see both sides. I am now leaning more towards living in NYC for a few years just to give it a go. Worst case, I move back after a few years but would probably returns anyways.For reference, I live in HOU / DAL and obviously pay no income tax due to this. Probably should've been more specific at the beginning as I don't live in a small city per se.
I guess already being in a bigger city might change the equation a little bit, but honestly I've spent a lot of time in those cities and they are probably the smallest feeling big cities out there. I really don't think they're any more exciting or have more to do than any mid size city in the US, there's just more people. So I'd still give NYC a shot and see if you like it, but you have to make that choice for yourself
At 24, I'd take up the opportunity to move to NYC. You really don't have many responsibilities or obligations that city living shouldn't be a problem. Going to NYC at a later age is possible but I think it gets harder to make it there because of competition and the comforts you actually need with getting older. if it doesn't workout just go back home.
NYC is an awesome place for sure - tons to do, great food, no need for car / incredible walk-ability. That said, it is a huge lifestyle downgrade, especially given the COL in HOU/DAL (literally no state income tax and rents are much lower). So the value proposition is tough, especially when you're probably used to having a washer/dryer and something bigger than a studio. I don't know how most people who live in NYC and don't work $150k+ salary jobs can afford it without being bankrolled by their parents. Even at 150k, I think you're breaking even best case (maybe this is draconian but idk, definitely my conclusion when running some quick level math). At the same time, NYC is incredibly fun socially and the best time to live there is when you don't have kids/real responsibilities, so it is somewhat of a "now or never" type of situation. Just really depends on what you prioritize and want! There is certainly an allure of moving to NYC, especially if you're not from the east coast (I am the opposite - an east coaster living in the south), though living there is much different than visiting. But you can always move back too
I moved from Dallas to NYC during the pandemic and haven't looked back. In the time I've been here, I feel the exact opposite vs the above comment on lifelessness... maybe that's true on a relative basis to 2019, but I feel so much more energy every day than I ever did in TX or than I do visiting any other city in the US. Feels like every week I see a new grand opening for something near me, and while I still love visiting friends in other cities I always find myself missing NYC very quickly. Political / fiscal / criminal issues are splashy on the news, but have yet to have any actual impact on my own life. I haven't experienced transactional relationships either FWIW, I meet so many people who are doing cool things but I've never felt like they wanted something from me
It's very personal, so no worries if it is or isn't for you, but this is easily the best decision I've made from both a personal and professional POV. People keep telling me I'll get sick of it and move back, but a few years in and the shine hasn't dulled
I did the opposite. Spent my first years in a big city, then moved to Texas during the pandemic, and it was nice at first but I slowly feel like I'm dying a little bit every time the weekend comes around and I'm reminded how bored I am here. The sucky part is that my inter-week lifestyle has definitely improved here (easier commute, less taxes, saving much more money and living in a nicer apartment) to the point where I feel like I'm going to feel too much pain if I move back to the big city, but at the same time living in Texas is so damn boring compared to a NY/LA/Miami/Chicago (and I'm referring to all of Austin, Dallas and Houston). They're all nice lifestyle places, but they become so boring after a year or two. My first year here I was happy I made the move, by month 13 I've been regretting my decision and missing the big city more every day. I'm sure I'd be talking differently if I had kids. I feel like too many people here are either married and starting families by 27, or their idea of having fun is going out to the same handful of bars every Saturday that feel like a glorified college bar and getting piss drunk and yelling "wooooo!!!" or going to try the new trendy restaurant that's a cookie cutter of every other restaurant and costs $20 a drink to be underwhelmed. I clearly was feeling burnt out of the big city when I left, but I wish I would've taken an extended vacation instead.
With that rant over. Everyone is different. I've seen people complain in other threads how NYC is terrible because you can never go 10 feet without seeing another person. For me, that's exactly why I want to be there. I feed off that energy, while for others it's depressing.
Honestly, I grew up in NYC and then moved to TX for four years and I'm planning on moving back to NYC. Yes, there's more competition out in NYC but I just felt like the TX city I was in lacked the intellectual stimulation I needed and even though it was a great place when it comes to lifestyle (it's so easy to get a nice luxury studio apartment for under $1500/mo), at the end of the day, I realized I valued my family and relationships more and would rather take pay cut to gain those experiences/memories.
Overall, people in TX are nice, comp was good, and I had all the material goods I wanted but the relationships were lacking.
It's really easy to get comfortable and bored in TX and I think that people need to find a good middle ground and find an environment that is challenging enough to make growth. I feel like life begins at 27 in NYC and people are just getting their careers started whereas in TX, most of my friends were married/engaged, had kids, or had a divorce behind them at 27.
Cost of living is mostly an overrated concern for two reasons:
1. You should only gross up what you spend, not what you make. Just to illustrate, let’s assume everything in NYC costs 2x your current city. People will tell you then that you need to make $240k in NYC to match your $120k. But that math is wrong bc you weren’t spending the full $120k. You were saving some of it. The right math is, take what you spend and gross it up (and not by 2x . . something more accurate which you can research).
But that’s not the only mistake people make, there’s also . .
2. More expensive cities are more expensive for a reason. You’re getting something back for your money. And for you OP, this is the bigger of the two. You’re young, have a fondness for NYC (and there’s only one NYC), have a career where the networ lmk in NYC will be better etc etc . . the value of being there is going to be high. Hard to put a dollar figure on it, but at a bare minimum you can save (i) the cost of a couple vacations because you’re living in the place you’d otherwise visit and (ii) all of the costs of owning and using a car.
Other mistakes ppl make: same apartment might cost 2x in NYC but you don’t need the same apartment . . far more socially acceptable to have a tiny place.
Just examples. You get the picture . . when you do a truly honest and thoughtful comparison, it’s always more doable than the standard canned answer of “NYC is sooooo much more expensive”.
I’d skip the math and just go for it, if others can make it work at that salary then you can too.
Exactly, though this math only really holds if you don't have a family. Start adding in more bedrooms, private schools, cars, etc and the cost of living really starts to hit you hard.
When I left to move to Texas, the final straw that helped me convince myself was that "I'm going to save so much more money with taxes and cost of living, that I can afford to fly somewhere new every weekend I get bored and still come out ahead". Terrible logic. Flying somewhere even once a month gets tiring when you have a career, and man the biggest thing I miss is just being able to have a spontaneous weekend in the place I live whenever I want and have it be exciting and go home and sleep in my bed after without catching flights, packing suitcases, etc.
Yep. And when you have a family, in addition to the cost going up as you say, the benefit of living in a place like NYC goes down at the same time.
I just want people to be careful with the cost of living math because sometimes it feels like a cognitive bias where they only regard the quantifiable side (ie high end city costs more) and don’t regard the other side (benefits of living there).
NYC is sick. Live with a bunch of roommates, prep your meals instead of eating out all the time, and lateral to a higher paying job when you get the chance. The money you make in your 20s is meaningless if you’re successful in RE
I never moved cities, but have a lot of friends that did.
For me, staying in my home area kind of sucked for a few years (early to mid 20s), but I built new friends and established myself here and now it doesn't feel like my "hometown," it feels like my own town even though my family is only a handful of miles away.
For moving cities, I've seen it go both ways. I have friends who had similar sentiments and moved, and it supercharged their life. They got great job opportunities, built great friend groups and met their future spouses. Some stayed in the city that they moved to and a good portion moved back home after getting married. On the flip side of that, I've seen people move because they were bored of their life, and after years in a new city, aren't really any better off. Although they blamed it on their hometowns/ regions, the real problem was them.
You need to evaluate what is best for your happiness, whether that be career, social life, etc, and do what it takes to maximize that happiness.
Saving is important, but so is living your life. If you want to move to NYC for a few years and think the cost of that is that you won't save anything during that time, that might be worth it! Don't go into debt trying to live some baller lifestyle or anything like that, but at some point life is about living, and it makes no sense to be 70 years old with the financial security to do anything you want, but only because you never did anything you wanted for the preceding 50 years.
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