Ags - Commodities 2022
Those of you in grains and Ags what is your thoughts currently? Is the pending food crisis going to be worse than 2008? Is there any trends you seeing to fix this somewhat? Will this impact equities at the end or so?
Those of you in grains and Ags what is your thoughts currently? Is the pending food crisis going to be worse than 2008? Is there any trends you seeing to fix this somewhat? Will this impact equities at the end or so?
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Didnt even get a chance to see your response.
You're one of my absolute favorite posters on this site so I really appreciate your taking an interest in Ags!
At this point, it feels like the market is reacting only to the war and not to the actual cash/physical demand. I'm in wheat at an ABCD and from what I'm hearing, it sounds like just about all of the cash buyers in the market (flour, export and feed) have moved to the sidelines. We're actually looking at using CBOT delivery as a backstop in some situations, which is definitely unique. Also hearing that people are paying up big on margin calls for short WK/WN/WU positions that they're maintaining and at some point their banks may ask them to just flat out liquidate those futures in a market that's increasingly looking like it could very well be quite illiquid in the near term.
I really don't think the food crisis will be worse than 2008, though. While importers and flour buyers seem to be holding off on locking in new contracts at the moment, we're expecting to see a rather drastic correction at some point in the near future and plan to take further advantage of the basis movement that such an event will offer. That correction will likely come from seeing managed money leave or short the market once they realize that Russian and Ukrainian wheat will surely have a home in China and South Asia, regardless of the atrocities that may occur over the coming weeks and months.
If pricing like this persists into the Summer, there could frankly be some pretty incredible opportunities in the equities markets. Traders like ADM and Bunge are well positioned to gain here, while customers like Smucker's and General Mills are about to get hammered on flour pricing very soon.
i know you arent in energy, i believe marcellus is tho, do you think same will apply to energy products?
Wanted to check up on Ags more so. But can make it a more broad discussion but you need to be a bit more clear with your question (especially after this weekend).
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Thanks for the nice words. As well as the in depth response about the physical market is setup.
I will not lie sounds similar to late last summer for Energy as you mentioned major physical arbs could come into place to balance the market or a China/India starts to lift this market and we get a longer sustained trend. Thanks for those names as well.
What makes you so confident that Russian and Ukrainian wheat will find a home? It seems like there is a real possibility the Ukrainian wheat doesn't get harvested/marketed this year with everything going on. Corn could potentially face a similar issue and since corn is the ag floor that would keep wheat elevated as well. I would agree Russian wheat will make it to China though.
Given the S&D and lack of US soft wheat export demand it definitely does feel like there are some people out there getting blown out of their Chicago bear spreads. Who would have been bull spread before the war broke out, ya know?
Heard it through the grapevine that the baker starting to book some basis out forward but obviously haven't locked in the futures yet. They seem to have the same bias as you on basis once this thing crashes.
Monkey question: What's an ABCD?
It‘s short for ADM, Bunge, Cargill and (Louis) Dreyfus.
With the collapse of the Ruble, and Russian domestic wheat prices skyrocketing, I have heard speculation about Russia banning wheat exports. Gotta keep the population able to afford food. Add in that with Ukraine potentially not getting their crop harvested and who knows what the limit is on this.
From the Oilseeds complex, I think its going to be interesting to see what happens. We already had a tight balance sheet to begin with with crush margins stupid high even at the elevated SB prices before the whole Ukraine stuff. Now with global energy prices pulling the prices of oils this is only going to perpetuate the problem. Crush margins are still $2+ even with soybeans at $17 at most crushers in the midwest US and biodiesel margins improving definitely doesnt seem like this is going to go away. The only thing that I see working to curb it would be changes to biofuel mandates, but even the effects are limited on a global scale and who would want to piss farmers off going into an election year in the US.
I have been wondering this for awhile and it sounds like you might be the guy to ask. Given that biodiesel is blended into fuel because it is mandated why do biodiesel margins matter? During times like this does more biodiesel get blended in than is actually required?
Great question, I don’t trade BD directly so take what I say with a grain of salt. No they don’t increase in times like these, like ethanol there’s a cap on the amount of BD you can mix, 20%, before it’s harmful to engines. The whole reason the industry exists is backed off mandates by CA and federal govts. The reason margins matter is because of what is being used as a feedstock, if margins are amazing and the government is liberal with handing out small refiners credits then every mom & pop shop will start buying up used cooking oil in town to make BD. If margins are shit like they have been for a while and will continue to be as the industry dies out and is replaced with renewable diesel, then the only companies left making BD will be the massive completely integrated feedstock companies that crush their own oilseeds and refine their own biodiesel in the same site, e.g. ADM, Cargill, LDC.
Biodiesel has issues like gelling so no
@Goodbread and other metals traders we need you in this thread now. Or make your own.
Ha, things are insane right now.
Vol is through the roof, I think a lot of metal buyers are very reluctant to hedge at these levels and markets end up being a bit thin. Low LME stocks don't help.
Margin requirements could end up being a big problem for some firms (eg Trafi rumors... just imagine some of the smaller guys). Nickel reopening will be interesting.
My main concern at this point is that the only way things get resolved is a recession. Inflation particularly for gas and food, is about to push a lot of consumers to throw in the towel. The correction on both the LME and physical premiums in the second half of this year could be absolutely monstrous in that scenario.
Hi, do you have articles about trafi rumors you are talking about ?
Ehhh there's a lot to say but I'll try to go quickly.
US is an exporter country, it should do far better than importers. Europe will be a disaster. Producers are starting to limit exports. China stockpiled like crazy and will be fine. Sunflower complex relies heavily on Ukraine and that's out of the market. It's generally a primary substitute for the soy complex, which is the preferred protein so you'd think soy would have a great season.... except that South Am is having one of the worst crops ever in Brz,PGY, Arg. Futures hadn't priced South Am fully before the war, so there's quite a lot more to go. USDA report will be out today and market should start price in more the soy issue, though USDA lately has been mostly bs.
Noteworthy, lack of protein should have pushed wheat higher regardless on the grain side. Funds were short CBOT long Matif; that short will have to be covered at L, then the market shot up and there's more room to go. Politics can and and I suspect will make things worse.
Saw the update from Yara basically saying they are shutting down operations in Europe this week. Getting quite ugly indeed here.
Just as the crop input side was finally getting back to "normal" the shit hits the fan, were running out of time before planting and sounds like things wont be getting better anytime soon.
Thanks for the response yes its a very tough situation. Truly the core of the problem is "European gas" so I do note blame these crop producers for changing their business, Europe has a made a decision to implement "demand destruction in the industrial sector" because of the situation they are in. While the TTF price has moved around 150EURs in a week or so, that is all credit/margin/position noise the price was already well past the point of that demand destruction was needed. Even the solution around "nuclear growth" in both Japan and Europe is far fetched, Nuclear needs years of planning and decision making you cannot switch on/off overnight. Will be interesting where we stand in a couple weeks.
Firstly, thank you for this post and for taking interest in this area of the market! I've been looking into this over the last week and this is probably too much to even mention, but here's my summary of this.
Here's what we know, Ukraine is one of the 5 most important economies in Ag (US, Brazil, Argentina, and India are other four). The base case for Ukraine will be a total write off, with increasingly likelihood, due to limited ability to maintain labor and import fertilizer (and there's a war!). Russia additionally will face trouble importing fertilizer which may lead to reduced crop yields due to the harshness of Russian soil and due to potential sanctions. This represents as much as 30% of global wheat exports, 20% of corn, 33% of barley, and 80% of sunflowers. As many as half a billion people are dependent on these yields, which may lead to instability. Weather issues in the recent months in South America have additionally driven prices up alongside the war, so renormalization may occur in 2022.
A true black swan event could occur in Brazil later this season due to getting 50% of its fertilizer from Russia and due to Brazil's consistent need for soil also due to poor soil quality, contrasting the United States. Brazilian lack in fertilizer would lead to an immediate reduction in yield. (This also has to do with how Brazil transforms pasture land into agrarian land, which requires 3x fertilizer. This has been important since they keep using more land for more farming regularly. The ability for this to happen will be greatly reduced for years to come, which in turn means we're going to have $7 corn for years to come.)
What does this mean for stocks? I think a lot. I'm uncertain exactly since I think anything well connected to agriculture is on the table for a review.
This won't be a shock, I don't believe. We were practically at peak ag to begin with, and now prices are even higher. Prices will just mostly stay raised into the medium term. It's just hard to see how this gets solved, I just don't think that's reasonable (unless there's incredible improvements in weather globally).
Bold of you to say China isnt one of the 5 most important countries when it comes to agriculture, the 1.4 Billion people gotta eat too!
I think the grain traders are going to make out very well in this and do the best on a risk v return, much like any other traders, they get their best results in times of volatility and this just cemented that we will be seeing volatility in the markets for at least another crop year. The global grain merchant model was made for times like these where they are the ones making markets and doing the price discovery.
For a company like Tyson, they have bigger issues to deal with besides corn prices. For feeding models, its a simple formula, corn gets too expensive, work something else in the rations, or we see like we have now where the rising tide lifts all ships and the broiler market is following these commodity prices up. I think the bird flu scare is a bigger concern for them right now over high feed costs.
I definitely did a bit of a double-take when I wrote that haha. I actually wrote the four I listed above and China, realized I had written six down, and decided to exclude them as I don't believe they do not make as significant of an impact on the global grain markets as the ones I listed. China is still super important, and yes 1.4 billion people definitely need to eat (mostly rice)!
I'm personally betting that Bunge and ADM have a really good chance of doing well too. They're where I'll be putting my money personally along with Nutrien.
As for Tyson, I gave a super brief assessment that definitely doesn't include all aspects of their business. They have a ton of problems along with corn being high that I didn't include.
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