I was at a career fair at my uni yesterday, and had a really good conversation with a Derivate saleswoman. I was just going to ask about M&A like everybody and their mother, but then she started poking at my interests and when she realized I am writing a thesis on derivatives she told me she was interested in having me try out for her desk. I never really considered sales and trading (and after reading liar's poker I wasnt too enthrailed about the profession). But what she does really seems interesting. I am just wondering how the culture really is within a sales desk (I know it can vary a lot, but some general insights would be good). How much b... work will I have to do in my first year? And pretty much any info you might have on that particular position. I know how Goldman's culture is for M&A, but I don't really know about its sales and trading desks. Also what is GS' reputation in that area?
I am almost certain that if I get the job I will take it, because based on what she told me this is exactly the right fit for me. But it's always fun to get people's insights :)
(I am in London, so deadlines are later than in the US, which would explain why I havent finished all my apps yet)
But my dear disjoint, GS does not have an M&A group. Good thing you did not ask. I suggest you do more reading on the GS website- divisions are defined.
Also may want to attend company presentations this week. Did you go yesterday? There is one on the 15 October at LSE.
Yes, standard procedure. GS will tell you where you fit.
Good luck!
well worth it!
Rerum causus cognoscere.
What is your thesis actually on, btw? I just find it interesting you are writing about derivs but yet were not interested in s&t.
Goldman is a terrific shop. Sometimes they have better years, sometimes worse, but you will almost never go wrong working there. How much bsht work will you have to do? probably the same as anywhere else. i mean, you don't know anything about the biz, so they'll want you to help out wherever you can.
Ab uno disce omnes.
Jimbo- spot on as usually.
I actually worked with a guy (M&A) whose thesis was on derivatives. I couldn't understand what he was doing there. But when the time came to write my own, I chose to write on lower partial moments, which is financial econometrics (my suggested deriv topic didn't fly with the stats professor). I figured it was a way to diversify and show that I could understand more than simple math :) Just my 2 cents.
Disjoint, you can't go wrong with Goldman, although their recruitment process is notoriously awful. Moreover, you seem to like the biz, so just go for it! Good luck!
i thought london has a notorious rolling system for recruiting.
Culture, work load, etc. will be completely dependant upon which desk you are on. The term "derivatives trading" or "derivatives sales" doesn't really have much meaning, unless you work at a shop that focuses on lots of flow trading. I work in commodities, for example, and 100% of our work is in derivatives. So definitely look into it because culture, type of work, complexity, etc. will vary drastically between, say, Structured Credit, Rates Derivatives, and Commodities, even though all deal with derivatives.
Well thanks a lot for your guys' advices! I didn't expect so many answers right away! I was always interested in sales and trading, but my brother does M&A so obviously I had a bit of influence there. Also all you really hear about is M&A so you always think of that career path to make money. Plus after reading liars' poker, I really was a bit turned off by the possibility of working in S&T. I always thought I would do the M&A gig for a few years, and then trade my money for the rest of my life. It's weird how things just pop out in your life unexpectedly.
I still have to get my research project approved, but I have gotten somewhat started on it during undergrad, so there shouldn't be a problem. I will be using past data to analyse multiple options trading strategy, and find out which one is the most rewarding one. (Bull spread, Iron condors, etc...) Who knows, if my finding are so revolutionary I might start up my own hedge fund ;) There is a professor at my Uni with whom I will most likely work, right now I am mainly focused on finding a job.
And Sol, good point; I however did read somewhere that GS does not have an M&A group per se. But I was going to apply to the i-banking division with the intention of working in M&A :) If the GS thing works out it will be great, I am crossing my fingers now. And I am about to start researching the industry in much greater depth now!
I want to work now! No, really. I want those 100+ hours/week.Make sure you actually can see yourself doing derivs S&T for the next few years. It's one thing to say, "cool, I can trade volatility," but it's another thing to do it day-in and day-out for 10+ hours a day.
My experience w/ derivs [did a BB S&T summer, roomie is a VP in derivs trading at a BB] is it's pretty technical and divorced from the story-telling found in vanilla equities. but it's also drier, divorced from the market, and often related to arbitrary statistics and mind-numbingly boring trading.
ppl here might construe this is a flame, but do you really want to be a flow trader at GS in equity derivs? or anything? how boring is that? you don't build anything; you don't start any deals on Monday and close them in a few weeks. you're shoveling sand from one pile to another. and in this case, it's not even sand; it's a boring math equation.
again: it's one thing to write a thesis on the topic. it's another thing do it for a summer. but picture years of this activity.
"My experience w/ derivs [did a BB S&T summer, roomie is a VP in derivs trading at a BB] is it's pretty technical and divorced from the story-telling found in vanilla equities. but it's also drier, divorced from the market, and often related to arbitrary statistics and mind-numbingly boring trading.
ppl here might construe this is a flame, but do you really want to be a flow trader at GS in equity derivs? or anything? how boring is that? you don't build anything; you don't start any deals on Monday and close them in a few weeks. you're shoveling sand from one pile to another. and in this case, it's not even sand; it's a boring math equation.
again: it's one thing to write a thesis on the topic. it's another thing do it for a summer. but picture years of this activity. "
your post is not a flame...it isn't for everyone. neither is banking. if you like either of them, they can both be great jobs...but not everyone is going to like them.
"ppl here might construe this is a flame, but do you really want to be a flow trader at GS in equity derivs? or anything? how boring is that? you don't build anything; you don't start any deals on Monday and close them in a few weeks. you're shoveling sand from one pile to another. and in this case, it's not even sand; it's a boring math equation."
Desecrato--you bring up a good point. The answer is that if you want to do the things you mention above (build something, work deals, etc.), then you go onto the sales & strucuturing side. I sit on a sales/structuring desk and that is exactly what we do every day--create innovative bespoke hedging solutions and investing strategies. They are structured not just from a financial point of view, but also from a tax, regulatory, legal, etc. point of view. I work day in and day out with IBD, Lev Fin, Private Equity, etc.
I mention this because most people's view of S&T is only representative of a small portion of the <span class="keyword_link"><a href="//www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/trading-overview">trading</a></span> floor. Anyone looking at this career field should keep this in mind......Yeah, that's definitely one of the biggest downsides to working in sales/structuring. ;)
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