Okay guys - I was debating posting this. However, I decided that I'd like to see the opinions of my fellow hyper-intelligent and super good-looking monkeys. One request: please don't turn this thread in an ocean of bubbling monkey feces; let's retain a little civility.
Original Story:
Ralph Benko - Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of…
The Denver Post, on February 15th, ran an Associated Press article entitled Homeland Security aims to buy 1.6b rounds of ammo, so far to little notice. It confirmed that the Department of Homeland Security has issued an open purchase order for 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition. As reported elsewhere, some of this purchase order is for hollow-point rounds, forbidden by international law for use in war, along with a frightening amount specialized for snipers. Also reported elsewhere, at the height of the Iraq War the Army was expending less than 6 million rounds a month. Therefore 1.6 billion rounds would be enough to sustain a hot war for 20+ years. In America.Add to this perplexing outré purchase of ammo, DHS now is showing off its acquisition of heavily armored personnel carriers, repatriated from the Iraqi and Afghani theaters of operation. As observed by “paramilblogger” Ken Jorgustin last September:
[T]he Department of Homeland Security is apparently taking delivery (apparently through the Marine Corps Systems Command, Quantico VA, via the manufacturer – Navistar Defense LLC) of an undetermined number of the recently retrofitted 2,717 ‘Mine Resistant Protected’ MaxxPro MRAP vehicles for service on the streets of the United States.”
These MRAP’s ARE BEING SEEN ON U.S. STREETS all across America by verified observers with photos, videos, and descriptions.”
Regardless of the exact number of MRAP’s being delivered to DHS (and evidently some to POLICE via DHS, as has been observed), why would they need such over-the-top vehicles on U.S. streets to withstand IEDs, mine blasts, and 50 caliber hits to bullet-proof glass? In a war zone… yes, definitely. Let’s protect our men and women. On the streets of America… ?”
“They all have gun ports… Gun Ports? In the theater of war, yes. On the streets of America…?
Seriously, why would DHS need such a vehicle on our streets?”
Why indeed? It is utterly inconceivable that Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano is planning a coup d’etat against President Obama, and the Congress, to install herself as Supreme Ruler of the United States of America. There, however, are real signs that the Department bureaucrats are running amok. About 20 years ago this columnist worked, for two years, in the U.S. Department of Energy’s general counsel’s office in its procurement and finance division. And is wise to the ways. The answer to “why would DHS need such a vehicle?” almost certainly is this: it’s a cool toy and these (reportedly) million dollar toys are being recycled, without much of a impact on the DHS budget. So… why not?
Why, indeed, should the federal government not be deploying armored personnel carriers and stockpiling enough ammo for a 20-year war in the homeland? Because it’s wrong in every way. President Obama has an opportunity, now, to live up to some of his rhetoric by helping the federal government set a noble example in a matter very close to his heart (and that of his Progressive base), one not inimical to the Bill of Rights: gun control. The federal government can (for a nice change) begin practicing what it preaches by controlling itself.
Remember the Sequester? The president is claiming its budget cuts will inconvenience travelers by squeezing essential services provided by the (opulently armed and stylishly uniformed) DHS. Quality ammunition is not cheap. (Of course, news reports that DHS is about to spend $50 million on new uniforms suggests a certain cavalier attitude toward government frugality.)
Spending money this way is beyond absurd well into perverse. According to the AP story a DHS spokesperson justifies this acquisition to “help the government get a low price for a big purchase.” Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center: “The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.”
At 15 million rounds (which, in itself, is pretty extraordinary and sounds more like fun target-shooting-at-taxpayer-expense than a sensible training exercise) … that’s a stockpile that would last DHS over a century. To claim that it’s to “get a low price” for a ridiculously wasteful amount is an argument that could only fool a career civil servant.
Meanwhile, Senator Diane Feinstein, with the support of President Obama, is attempting to ban 100 capacity magazine clips. Doing a little apples-to-oranges comparison, here, 1.6 billion rounds is … 16 million times more objectionable.
Mr. Obama has a long history of disdain toward gun ownership. According to Prof. John Lott, in Debacle, a book he co-authored with iconic conservative strategist Grover Norquist,
“When I was first introduced to Obama (when both worked at the University of Chicago Law School, where Lott was famous for his analysis of firearms possession), he said, ‘Oh, you’re the gun guy.’
I responded: ‘Yes, I guess so.’
’I don’t believe that people should own guns,’ Obama replied.
I then replied that it might be fun to have lunch and talk about that statement some time.
He simply grimaced and turned away. …
Unlike other liberal academics who usually enjoyed discussing opposing ideas, Obama showed disdain.”
Mr. Obama? Where’s the disdain now? Cancelling, or at minimum, drastically scaling back — by 90% or even 99%, the DHS order for ammo, and its receipt and deployment of armored personnel carriers, would be a “fourfer.”
The federal government would set an example of restraint in the matter of weaponry.
It would reduce the deficit without squeezing essential services.
It would do both in a way that was palatable to liberals and conservatives, slightly depolarizing America.
It would somewhat defuse, by the government making itself less armed-to-the-teeth, the anxiety of those who mistrust the benevolence of the federales.
If Obama doesn’t show any leadership on this matter it’s an opportunity for Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, and Rep. Michael McCaul, chairman of the House Committee on Homeland Security, to summon Secretary Napolitano over for a little national conversation. Madame Secretary? Buying 1.6 billion rounds of ammo and deploying armored personnel carriers runs contrary, in every way, to what “homeland security” really means. Discuss.
Rev your engines guys. Where do you stand?
Thanks for posting this. I was going to but got too busy today.
It makes me sick. We already have a Federal police force. It is called the FBI. There is no need for Homeland security to have these things and the fact that they are buying so much ammo and heavy vehicles should alarm the fuck out of all of us. Furthermore, every terrorist attack this country has had was been a bomb and a couple lone guys. There is no need for a massive force to repel a small army because none are here.
The only thing this is used for is circumventing the Posse Comitatus Act. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is what happens when you allow government to grow. The only good government is a weak and neutered one. Those who vote for an expansionist government are not voting with American ideals. The enemy is among us.
Wow, that's glaringly inaccurate.
Little tidbit, the FBI is probably the federal agency you hear the most about - and arguably prestigious. But it is by far, not the largest. That honor goes to HSI which has more sworn members than the FBI by a large margin.
A distinction needs to be made between "policing" and "investigating and prosecuting". They are not the same.
Oh my fuck...my head hurts....
Stop questioning and obey. This is for your protection.
While I am very against large government, there is nothing out of the ordinary about this. There are literally dozens of law enforcement agencies and thousands of agents under DHS all of whom carry weapons. They require lots of ammunition and buying it in bulk helps to cut down on costs.
DHS is buying for itself, not for Xmas time when it gives different agencies gifts. And this is a massive amount of ammo.
During the last year, ~8 million rounds were used/month in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fucking Iraq and Afghanistan require ~100 million rounds/year. But we need 1.6 billion in our borders...right.
DHS is a disgusting piece of shit. All we needed was the various intelligence agencies to talk with each other. Now we have another branch of the military.
This country is swirling in the toilet hardcore now.
Check this article out if you truly want to have your mind blown. I'm not sure if you caught it. Totally changed my view on the world. Maybe those tin-foil hat crazy homeless people you see on the streets, yelling about the government reading their minds...were actually on to something. Scary.
The NSA Is Building the Country’s Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say) - Wired Magazine http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/
Check this article out if you truly want to have your mind blown. I'm not sure if you caught it. Totally changed my view on the world. Maybe those tin-foil hat crazy homeless people you see on the streets, yelling about the government reading their minds...were actually on to something. Scary.
The NSA Is Building the Country’s Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say) - Wired Magazine http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/[/quote]
....honestly about ready to move to Canada. Wait? Did the NSA hear that? Will I be taken out by a drone on my way to class?
Something we can agree on!
Wow man. It is 100 miles from the Dugway Proving Grounds. That is the place that replaced Area 51.
I am sorry, but any government that needs to monitor its citizens like this isn't doing it for any good. Add to that the DHS and their militarization and you would need to be nuts to NOT put one and one together.
I agree man. I tried to think of alternate explanations for all of this craziness, but there is a pattern that any objective and intelligent person can't deny. It seems like every day I read about some new surveillance Police State Constitution destroying bullshit. All you can really do is spread the word to as many people as you can. The masses are definitely slowly becoming aware of the assault on personal liberty....
Personally, I think the government knows what is going to happen. Either they know about oil running out, know they are losing control of the dollar or know something else that will get people pissed. They are putting in place the systems to remain in control once the citizens of this country demand a reduction/removal.
Imagine if we pulled our military back and invested one years defense budget into wind, solar and nuclear. We wouldn't need oil to run our economy and if we did, we would have it here. We already have enough nat gas for things. Who cares about geopolitical power when we need to roll out Cyberdyne level intelligence to monitor the world.
Juice ain't worth the squeeze anymore. We are becoming more and more like China every day.
Yeah dude. More I read about China the more I view them as an adversary.
THey are preparing for civil unrest, in my tin foil hatted opinion.
It's a shame that we have to preface everything as not part of the tin-foil hat crowd, ya know? If you showed these recent developments to a Martian they would come to the same conclusion. lol
Most Americans See Government as “Threat to Rights” For First Time
http://www.pewresearch.org/2013/03/09/views-of-government-key-data-poin…
Another one added to the list today.
EXCLUSIVE - U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/usa-banks-spying-idINDEE92C0E…
1) My point with the FBI was it is the Federal level policing force. Policing in the sense they have cops (aka agents), they arrest people, they have their own swat, whatever. You don't need a national police force in the truest sense of the word because you have local and state police.
2) I will agree that there isn't a way to cut things simply. I disagree that it cannot be done. The Dept of Education didn't exist until the 1970's. Dept of Homeland Security until 2000. We did fine without them before. and we would do fine if they went away.
Nothing is going to happen because people just care about TV and stuffing food in their face. I just hate seeing this country devolve into a totalitarian regime. And this phantom terrorist threat is utter bullshit. 9/11 is horrible and should never be forgotten, but it is sickening that it has become a rallying cry to build a state surveillance apparatus that would make the Communists cream in their pants.
As far as the news article, my take is that it is sensationalist reporting. As an combat arms officer and a competition shooter, I honestly don't think the purchase is unusual at all.
While I don't know the specifics of the quantity each agency allocates towards training and how that is broken down, I would argue that in order to maintain a high level of firearms proficiency, you're looking at 10,000 rounds per year. Obviously I doubt every sworn member is receiving that much trigger time, the important thing to note is that there is a time frame for these contracts. No one has the ability to crank out 1.6 billion bullets overnight.
Regardless, the DHS is unnecessary. I can see an umbrella organization to help coordinate, but the DHS needs no personnel other than administrative.
Whether DHS is necessary or not, it still doesn't change the fact that 1.6 billion bullets would have been bought anyways.
DHS is an "umbrella organization". HSI, CBP, USSS, etc. fall under DHS in very much the same way as how the FBI, DEA, ATF, USMS, etc. fall under DoJ.
Also, saying DHS needs no other personnel other than administrative is very short-sighted. You are overlooking the fact that nearly EVERY single branch of the executive government has an investigative agency with law enforcement authority. Heck they may exist as tiny OIGs, but shit, the Department of Energy, Department of Education, Internal Revenue Service, crap, even the US Postal Service (which is not a complete government entity) has 1811s (Criminal Investigators/Special Agent).
I'm not trying to sharpshoot, but if you have questions, I try to share what I know. Heck, I'm still learning everyday as well.
The DHS doesn't need to exist, therefore any police force it fields is superfluous. And 1.6B rounds, including hollow point bullets?
http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_22594279/homeland-security-aim…
"Federal solicitations to buy the ammo are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga. The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises."
1.6B / "as many as 15MM per year"
= Enough bullets for 106.7 years.
Yeah, not excessive at all...
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/government-gone-wild/latest-homeland-secu…
They are also buying MRAP's. Yeah, nothing to be concerned about.
Stop subscribing to sensationalist reporting. There's always an agenda.
Dude, whatever. Keep drinking the koolaid. 100 years of bullets and military vehicles for an agency that is what, 10 years old. Now we have drones flying over this country. You might be fine watching this country militarize, but people who value the constitution and liberty aren't for it.
Oh and FYI Forbes isn't sensational reporting.
You need to check yourself in the mirror. You have very un-researched positions and your making uninformed assertions. I gave you a way out.
You decided to squander it with the "Dude, whatever. Keep drinking the koolaid" line.
Going back to your last three sentences in your little immature tirade.
Drones have been flying over this country for a while. This is not news. Heck, even the ragtag National Guard has had UAVs at the brigade level being used everyday, and guess who we answer to? The state.
I've served for 6+ years in the military and I continue to serve this country so please don't try to make the implication that I don't value the Constitution and the freedoms Americans enjoy. I've been to some shitty places and I have had too many friends die serving this country than I care to share.
Just stop.
Haha, ok.
1) DHS reports that ~15MM rounds are spent per year in training. This amounts to 100 years worth of bullets.
2) National Guard drones and DHS/Police Forces flying drones over American soil, monitoring Americans is something else.
3) This is not the first debate on this site or discussion on this site that I have engaged in regarding the militarization of the police in this country. A lot of it can be attributed to military surplus and military suppliers looking for more purchasing. Considering the amount of money the DHS is funneling into local police forces to arm up it makes perfect sense.
4) You might feel warm and cozy seeing DHS logo's on heavy armored vehicles, but I do not.
We have DHS buying tons of ammo. We have data centers being built in Utah. We have Gitmo holding people diffidently. We have Holder doing anything but enforcing the law and Constitution. We have drums beating for further gun control and registration. If you can't see rights and freedoms eroding then you aren't paying attention.
Furthermore, while I appreciate your service, it doesn't trump an argument or increase its validity. My best friend did two tour in Iraq and is still serving and he sees things just as I do.
I'm amazed how far some people can go rationalizing this kind of shit to themselves....what is happening now is not normal of a "free society". The gradual loss of liberties has happened many times before....always to a bad end. In my mind, in the age of the internet, and free exchange of information, this gradual herd mentality is no longer acceptable of anyone.
Agree. How someone can rationalize an agency that has only existed for a decade purchasing 100 years worth of ammo is beyond me. What enemy force is DHS preparing for? 9/11 could have been prevented by having pilot doors made of steel and good communications among intelligence agencies. Now we have a paramilitary force taking over all kinds of security apparatus.
Just what we need. More police, more government, more control.
Solutions for you:
a. Move
b. Run for office and effect change.
c. Whine on Wall Street Oasis.
I don't think we are all too far away from each other in this thread. Despite all the back and forth. It seems like you Knivek, think the build up is more of a function of the crazy government contract spending. Which I don't disagree with, but myself and TNA also think that there may be a much more malicious component as well. We all agree that our rights are going down the shitter, so that's a start. No more monkey shit anyone!
Could it be possible that with recent DoD budget cuts the DHS is just buying shit for the DoD with it's own budget?
Not possible. The way procurement and funding work in government does not allow that. So there's this concept of "fund cites". Think of it as a "bank account" and they are only filled during the beginning of the fiscal year (October). This is why budgeting in government is MUCH harder than the private sector (and wasteful). So you have to accurately project fund usage a year out, but if you're wrong, you can't reprogram or reallocate funds easily. But at the end of the fiscal year, your accounts are emptied before they are replenished.
Well, these funds have specified usages and limitations on how they can be used for procurement. A significant portion of the cost of procurement goes to the overhead of oversight into how these funds are used. People often wonder, "Why does the government spend so much on such an item?" Well, there are necessary measures in place to try to limit the chance that some asshole misuses it.
This is part of why the DHS just can't buy shit for the DOD. It's illegal.
There are other reasons such as, oh, well ... you have your own mission criteria and why in the world would you wastes resources on trying to make someone else's mission successful at the expense of your own. Stupid politicking if someone does that.
Sorry, a little late to the party. Would it be completely off base to suggest that this could also be a "back door" gun control measure (i.e. take a HUGE bite out of supply for retail sale)? I know some gun enthusiasts who have confirmed it is already more difficult to try to buy ammo. My tin foil hat thought of the day: 1) make it harder for the people to buy ammo, 2) people slowly lose interest because they've been shooting less often anyway, 3) gov't strikes the issue with significantly more ease than before.
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