Barclays Commodities or Wolverine Trading? Please Help!

Hi everyone,

I would like to get some insight and advice from anyone who is familiar with the summer analyst programs at BBs and prop firms and thanks in advance for your input.

I currently hold an offer with Wolverine Trading, a prop shop in Chicago, for a summer rotational intern position. They are a tier I market maker in equity derivatives and also has a nice stat arb trading desk going as well. I also have an offer with Barclays (essentially with the Lehman desk) for the commodities desk, where I can work with an MD on natgas and oil trading.

I don't really care too much about the pay or hours given the way the market looks, but am interested in your thoughts on which offers a better long term career path, stability, profitability in the long run, etc.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 
Best Response

Yeah, Barcap should give you a better foundation and in some sense more stability. Profitability in my opinion in the long run would be better at Wolverine depending on how good you are. If you work at Barcap, you also have the option to move into commodities sales if you feel you don't like trading (an option you won't have at Wolverine). That said, Wolverine is an amazing shop just like Jane Street and some other top prop firms and a lot of candidates choose these firms over BB banks and even top hedge funds at times. Since you are looking for stability and career path, I would suggest Barcap. If you are looking for a lot of profitability then go with Wolverine. Also, I've seen people making the jump from BB to Prop shop but I have to admit, I haven't seen the reverse happening much so take that into consideration. If this is Barcap in NY, then you will be working with an awesome MD (name slips my mind). I believe he used to work for Sempra and is very well known on the street. P.S. I knew this a while ago and am not sure if he is still there.

 

I went with a European bank over Wolverine too, but I was also more interested in products that Wolverine simply doesn't trade. Seems like you can't go wrong with the experience and trading in BB though Wolverine seemed like a great place when I visited. People seemed brilliant.

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard. -30 Rock
 

dude, if you are impartial btw eq derivs and energy, i'd take energy @ BarCap... Even if you HATE it, when you go through FT recruiting next year, BarLeh will look great on your resume. Not to say that Wolverine isn't a great shop (it is), but with BB experience and a great resume, you could easily get looks from comparable shops next year in Chi if NY doesnt work out.

 

im in a very similar position, debating between Chicago Trading Company and BarCap as a SA in S&T. Definitely tough decision considering the state of all banks right now. CTC culture is very respectable too, not much hierarchy you have to deal with, very chill place to be. Seems like BarCap is the general consensus, but would anyone else take a firm like CTC / Wolverine?

 

it really all depends on what you want to do later on. Like it was mentioned above, there's not that much transition from prop shops into other firms. Therefore, BarCap will give you more options later on. However, depending on your preferences and intentions, Wolverine might be better suited - definitely a chill atmosphere and some really cool people.

 

thanks for all the feedback guys. i definitely see everyone's point about how a BB is advantageous as an exit strategy...but just to play devils advocate, i'm under the impression that Wolverine would in the short term offer better stability than BarCap. I know Barclays is a great bank and is considered one that cannot fail for its size, but if it does happen to get nationalized, wouldn't the pay for the employees be capped significantly (much like the bonus deferrals at BofA)? Wolverine is smaller but they are in a phase of growth and expansion into different trading markets right now, and it seems like they are buffered in bear markets by higher volatility and benefit from bull markets with higher liquidity.

Also, does anyone have an opinion on how BarCap energy trading stacks up against other BBs? People at the firm tell me that they are top 3 with MS and GS right now after acquiring Lehman's operations, is this true?

Again, thanks for all your feedback!

 

First of all, pay in your first 2-3 years or so is basically capped (regardless which BB you go to) and should not be your main thought right now. Sure, if you go to Wolverine, kill it a year or 2 out of the program, then yes you will be making more than an analyst at a BB...but, imagine that you don't do very well your first year and are shown the door...this scenario is just as risky, if not more so, than going to a BB. Honestly, you have to figure out what interests you the most. You are thinking about variables that are either out of your control or present in all aspects of trading (BB or prop shop).

 

indian banker - Jane Street and Optiver are just too ridiculous for me...JS 5th round had number theory proofs and unbelievably challenging stoch calculus...I respect both of these firms immensely, but I think 99.99% of people in the world (me included) just aren't capable of getting an offer there...

 

You are right. It seems you made it to the fifth round which is phenomenal. I only managed to get to the second round after which I was dinged because of zero programming experience (according to the interviewer). Even getting an interview with them is tough. Proofs in number theory would have been a lot of fun, especially since I'm taking the course now but I would have suffered in the stoch calculus bit. Of course considering Jane St. and Optiver in a different class, then yes, taking a BB would generally be better than taking a prop shop.

 

I would take a BB over most prop shops any day of the week. The training is more holistic, you learn how to deal with clients, the reputation is global, and the size of trading you get to work with is ridiculous. However, I do like Wolverine.

Also, consider whether you would like to work in Chicago or NYC - I've worked in both. I personally like Chicago more as a city, but the big time opportunities are in NYC in my opinion.

And never choose CTC over a BB, that is just ridic.

 

Getting an interview with JSC is not tough -- they picked me! I come from a banking/PE background with absolutely zero quantitative finance experience and a liberal arts major. Everything on my resume screamed "I'm a corp fin guy only applying to JSC because someone dared me to" and sure enough I got selected.

 

@ dilemma: Some key facts on Barcap that you need to know if you're going to speaking with anyone there.

First, Barcap was #3 in commodities before the Lehman acquisition. Lehman was arguably the weakest player on the street (great people, but very new to the game so the business had just not developed yet), so they didn't add very much to Barcap's capabilities (although I believe their physical capabilities may have been slightly stronger than Barcap's). Also, Barcap acquired the bulk of UBS's commodities desk, as well. That probably added more to their platform than Lehman did.

Second, following the above comment, you will most certainly NOT be working "essentially with the Lehman desk". Shortly after the acquisition roughly 2/3 of Lehman's commodities desk was let go. The vast majority of Barclays' commodities desk is legacy Barclays. Which in turn means legacy Goldman, Stanley, and Enron, because when Barclays started up that's who they hired from to build a desk from scratch.

Third, you asked how Barcap fares compared to other banks. This has been posted a million times, but it essentially goes like this:

1-3) Goldman, Stanley/Barcap Revenues between $2 and $3B each 4) JP Morgan Revenues somewhere in the $1B+ range 5) Merrill About the same size as JPM, but who knows how this will shake out since BofA gutted commodities awhile ago 6) Deutsche Not too much knowledge of these guys

Then you have the remaining banks that trade commodities, i.e. Credit Suisse and Citi. BNP Paribas, Macquarie, and Soc Gen also do commodities, and are probably bigger than Citi and CS, but I don't know if you're looking at them.

Do NOT downplay the prestige of Barclays in commodities. I'm saying this because what accompanies their success in that area is a healthy does of arrogance and a harsh culture. Turnover on that desk is very high and the culture is extremely competitive.

 

hey guys, thanks for all your input. i just signed with GS today instead of either BarCap or Wolverine, feel like I got along with the people there better and at the end of the day I chose NYC over Chicago because I just can't take the winter cold there =\

thanks again for all your input! it's nice to hear so many different opinions on this issue. good luck w/ all your work if you are working and internship hunt if you are in my position

 

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