Gf / Dating vs. Wifey / Marriage

I spoke to a good female friend of mine about their intimate life. This person is above average intelligence and overall a good personality but by the end of the conversation, I was confused/lost, and frustrated.

Her thinking was that if she is going to hook up or have casual relationships then she will only focus on looks/charm and for long-term/marriage she will not really care about looks but more about personality and financial security. 

This bothered me because it means that guys that are average looking or just focused on their career don't have the option to "have fun" and just end up finding something long-term later in life, and too mostly due to the wealth they have built up. Kind of feels unfair that woman (yes, I know that not all think this way) are trying to get everything - I am going to have crazy sex with some (good looking) losers and won't even look at you but will marry you because you have money. 

I know guys do it to some extent but at the same time, guys will also marry for the looks; overall there is less of this differentiation between short term and long term. What bothered me more was her attitude that she is a "queen" and how she is the shit. Reality check 5-6/10 looks, maybe 7 under optimal lighting conditions, and while she is working in big tech CS, not the brightest (from what I have heard). <not sure if this part matters in this context.

Later in the conversation, I mentioned that sometimes I DM girls on insta if it's listed on their dating profile.  Her response was "that's weird/creepy". Okay, she is a conservative person so maybe it is to her but the way she made an assumption about how ALL women (including the ones that put their insta on the dating profile saying "hit me up on insta") think it's weird and creepy and the way she said it.

Ofc I argued with her on that but I started thinking that her lack of awareness and saying things out loud can definitely ruin male careers, especially if some woke chunky HR feminist heard it.

This is kind of a rant, kind of seeking your views on this, and also wondering if I should slowly cut off contact with this person.

Update 1:

Based on the responses I am seeing I am going to clarify some things:

-Contemplating whether to cut off contact has nothing to do with her short-term/long-term dating preferences but more about her making statements like DMing is creepy without thinking through other women's pov/preferences and also the impact that some of those statements can have in terms of career, how they are perceived, etc. for the male in question. While ours was a private conversation she is the type of person who wouldn't hesitate to say those things out loud in public.

-I am not bothered by her preferences/conclusion but her approach and attitude to arriving there which is "I am the shit so I can have everything I want even if it means a) the hot dude I hooked with up fell in love with me and I have to break his heart and/or b) I am not even going to give the average guy a chance but will later in life when I want more security." I remember there was a thread where someone said that they don't mind working their ass off now so they can have a hot wife later while the hot dude will be struggling to find stability. Yes, true, there is a win-win here but why would you accept someone that wasn't willing to give you a chance earlier but are now bc you have money? From my POV, it's pretty clear that they are compromising and if they find a better option they will just leave. I am having a hard time rationalizing this.

-Tbh, I am not sure why I am bothered so much. It's not the first time where I had convos where I disagree and I usually am able to understand the other's POV but this has been bothering me for 2 weeks and I can't figure out why. It could be because of the hypocrisy where girls are always talking about how guys are pigs for going on looks and should focus on other traits but then they do it themselves - she has given me shit before for just focusing on looks.  

-And to clarify, I have not had any terrible experiences where my GF has left me for any of the reasons here so I don't think it has anything to do with my personal experiences. I also am not that into (romantically) this friend of mine in terms of looks and OTHER differences in lifestyle we have.

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Comments (74)

Most Helpful
Apr 5, 2021 - 11:27am

It kind of sounds like you've been acting like an orbiter if her expressing her opinion on how she wants to manage her own love life affects your ability to want to be friends and has you seriously considering cutting contact. Like seriously, why should it matter/bother you either way how she decides to fuck around in her personal time/target a future husband? This doesn't sound like something a good friend would write, more someone whose been acting like a friend out of hopes they'll be able to leverage it for some future snoo snoo. I'm not saying that's the case, but that's honestly the first impression I'm getting here.

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 5, 2021 - 12:26pm

^^^ This!!!! Why does it offend OP this much that another individual has her own dating preferences with regards to one night stands vs long term relationships? I sense some insecurity from OP.

Apr 5, 2021 - 2:27pm

For what it's worth, I also think just DMing chicks on IG is creepy and I'm a dude. Unless you've actually matched with the person or it explicitly says on their profile "Feel free to DM me" it's there so you can see more photos, not just cold reach out. Also you're having a hard time rationalizing that women will leave one man for another man who they think can provide better for them? That's literally the point of evolution in a sense, you want to maximize the value of the spouse you've chosen to optimize the outcomes for your own offspring. If you're worried about it that much, just be better, and recognize that no matter how good you are there's always someone out there that's more attractive, rich, connected, etc. Know and choose your SO well enough so that isn't a problem, otherwise that's just life man.

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Apr 6, 2021 - 5:22pm

consluttant

thank you for shutting this incel down

Honestly, I don't like calling someone an incel unless they're being blatantly misogynistic. Do I think OP was being naive, somewhat shallow, and showing his own insecurity + an utter lack of understanding when it comes to women? Yes. Do I think he was being genuinely hateful? Not really no. Attributing malice when there isn't any present at face value (at least that I see, maybe I'm the one who's naive here) is part of why politics are so horrifyingly divided nowadays and it's exhausting. I believe it's better to discuss in good faith than to assume bad faith in this situation.

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Apr 5, 2021 - 11:34am

DMing girls on their instagram is a little weird, why not just ask for their number after you match?

Also, guys we basically have the same mindset. Early years we just go hook up with anything we can, and after getting more stable, we look for a little more wifey type girl who can one day help raise a family and doesn't need to live the flip side of the models and bottles lifestyle.

Apr 5, 2021 - 11:45am

Not sure I understand the problem, when a guy or girl (gender is not relevant here) wants to be with someone for a short amount of time, how is anything outside of looks important? Both men and women have the right to sleep with whoever they want to, and if the encounter is only for a few hours, who cares about anything but looks? This is fairly normal in the Western culture, not just in the US.
Imagine the number of occasions where this is the case:

- business trips
- domestic short term vacation (ie Vegas, NYC, New Orleans/Mardi Gras, spring break, etc)
- short term work assignments or internships (a few months in NYC or SFO or LA, ..)
- any other hook up you don't want to see again

Just because this girl has a certain view doesn't mean every other girl will think like this.

A girl can have a ONS with an average looking guy as much as marry an attractive man. She may marry for looks and money or might marry an average guy with an average income.

Not every place in the world is like a Hollywood movie script.

Apr 5, 2021 - 1:02pm

mech60

Not sure I understand the problem, when a guy or girl (gender is not relevant here) wants to be with someone for a short amount of time, how is anything outside of looks important?

I also do not see the problem.  This seems like normal behavior for a lot of people, especially when you are young.  I think that the OP needs to set his expectations a little lower.

http://www.series65examtutor.com
Apr 5, 2021 - 4:06pm

Don't ask a fish how to catch it - ask a fisherman

You called? 😇😁

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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Apr 6, 2021 - 7:47pm

What an awful fucking analogy for dating. Women are not barely sentient objects waiting to be caught by men, you'll do better if you treated them like human beings with a fully fleshed out consciousness and perspective on life.

The boys on this forum have never had close female friends and it shows. 

Apr 5, 2021 - 12:01pm

I think when hooking up and marrying, the priorities are different.  It's the same with guys.  For example, if I was trying to get laid on a Friday night, I am more interested in who is good looking enough to make for a fun night; I wouldn't care much about her personality. Does it matter if he is a kind, "family man/woman" if I am just trying to get dick/pussy?  On the other hand, if I am trying to find a spouse, I would focus on long-term personality issues- "Would I want to budget/raise kids/etc with this person?"  There is nothing wrong with that mindset.  I would just focus on playing the game.  Why can't you be the attractive AND wealthy guy who has fun AND settles down with a great wife? Get to the gym and get a stylist.  

This bothered me because it means that guys that are average looking or just focused on their career don't have the option to "have fun" and just end up finding something long-term later in life, and too mostly due to the wealth they have built up. 

That's true, but at the same time, smoking hot idiots who get laid every Friday night will have a hard time getting married.  And quite frankly, a girl like her who is a 5/6 will have a hard time finding a guy to settle down with, especially considering her past of partying.  Most quality dudes would either date someone much hotter or would rather someone who has not gotten ran through by a bunch of losers.  She is acting like she can flip a switch and some man will settle down with her, which is far from the truth (unless she is a smoke show).  There is a shortage of financially well off, college educated men in virtual every big city.  What will likely happen is she will be 30, want to all the sudden attract the wealthy average looking dude, and struggle to find them because they are all dating girls much younger and much hotter than her.  

  • Associate 1 in IB - Ind
Apr 5, 2021 - 12:07pm

What will likely happen is she will be 30, want to all the sudden attract the wealthy average looking dude, and struggle to find them because they are all dating girls much younger and much hotter than her.  

This x1000.  Sounds like a girl that's going to be single for awhile.  It works both ways and no successful dude would want someone like that, even if they're a 10.

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 5, 2021 - 12:22pm

Doesn't that apply to both men and women though? I mean obviously, for hookups it's more superficial, and for real relationships/marriage it's also about personalities, values, and long-term compatibility. Yes, you do see older men with women that are way younger (sometimes they even get married), but usually, those relationships are also superficial and either end in a disaster, or the women just aren't that into the older men but are sticking around just to have access to their wealth/status. I'm from Asia and I've seen this scenario play out in many iterations.

But also curious to know why does your friend's personal preferences bother you this much?

  • VP in IB - Ind
Apr 5, 2021 - 12:46pm

Who cares. At least she'll be rolling in RSUs at some point. 99% of women do the same thing but are essentially money pits.

Apr 5, 2021 - 12:46pm

it makes sense. why would girls hook up with somebody ugly just for the sake of hooking up when they have good-looking options to choose from. even ugly girls can hook up with hot guys.

what you can do, if you are ugly but rich, is to pretend that you're interested in long-term relationships and are willing to provide, then hook up and leave them.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Ind
Apr 5, 2021 - 1:06pm

Sorry that you are ugly. Try working out, improving your style, and taking care of your skin/hair. It will make a big difference.

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
Apr 5, 2021 - 1:21pm

Lol, I just updated the post. None of my friends or I would consider me ugly. I am considered average to above average (50-75th percentile) by most people. 

  • Analyst 3+ in RE - Comm
Apr 5, 2021 - 2:17pm

don't hate the player, hate the game. Nassim Taleb has a great reference to your observation in Antifragile - check out chapter 11 "Never Marry the Rock Star"

...."Female in the animal kingdom (in some monogamous species which includes humans) tend to marry the equivalent of the accountant, or even more colorless, the economist, someone stable who can provide, and once in a while, they cheat with the aggressive alpha, the rock star, as a part of a dual strategy".

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Apr 8, 2021 - 9:00pm

I love how WSO auto-linked "chapter 11" and "alpha" to the finance dictionary. @Patrick pls fix

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
Apr 8, 2021 - 1:57pm

This book is awesome. I started reading this last night and had to force myself to stop reading.

  • Managing Director in S&T - Other
Apr 5, 2021 - 5:24pm

OP, women her age and "especially somewhat hardos" have no idea what they want/need yet. Man check the threads on here about the females worried about working too hard, landing rich stable guy etc... Women have it way harder than guys like you. So let her do her thing now.

That DMs line is total bullshit, "ohh that's creepy". Its only creepy if they dont like the guy otherwise every celebrity known to man is creepy. Conservative, bullshit she prolly likes to get nailed against the wall after her long week of coding.

The one part of your post that is overboard is how you break her down, look/intelligence in general. That part made everyone say okay this guy is either real inscure or so. Was not nesscary.

Some of us would say she should consider trying to meet people organically, but this lady sounds way too immature for you to suggest that.

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
Apr 5, 2021 - 6:14pm

I agree with and looking back I can see how the breaking it down part might make me seem insecure. And again, I did not say anything to her when we talked a few weeks ago or anytime since then. I am not sure if I was clear but I already know that it's none of my business, it never was in the first place. I posted here to get more opinions, figure out why I am so triggered, and also to vent. 

I am not going to edit it to keep the history as is, but I did mention that not sure if this matters for this context in that paragraph. I put that there in anticipation of comments like "it depends on what she looks like" or "does she have the brains or not"; and also to contrast what the attitude implies vs the reality...

To the rest of the readers, I don't think less of her based on what the reality is / I am not trying to put her down, but my only problem is the mismatch in attitude. I know some amazing women that have the right attitude, solid confidence, non-apologetic (e.g. for going against societal norms), etc. which I respect. However, the mismatch, in this case, is too extreme for me to even lie on this forum / be PC. 

Apr 5, 2021 - 11:37pm

She isn't "conservative". Conservative means marrying your hs/college bf, virgin at marriage, etc. Btw the "personality" thing just means find a guy to leech off of who will have a hard time putting her away whilst she cheats outside of the marriage with good looking guys. She doesn't actually value personality otherwise it would be a factor for short term relationships too.  You should avoid anyone attempting to double dip at all costs. 

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Apr 6, 2021 - 11:20pm

I never knew that "conservative" was a synonym for "Mormon" until now

I’m a fun guy. Obviously I love the game of basketball. I mean there’s more questions you have to ask me in order for me to tell you about myself. I'm not just gonna give you a whole spill... I mean, I don't even know where you're sitting at
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Apr 6, 2021 - 12:38am

Alpha seed vs beta need, brother. You're becoming aware of the realities of hypergamy and modern women. Red pill is quite tough to swallow; however, once you truly accept the female nature you'll look at these issues from a more liberating (and evolutionary) perspective and will realize it's all just a game.

  • Analyst 3+ in RE - Comm
Apr 6, 2021 - 7:18am

You know what determines if DMing on insta is creepy? Whether or not the girl being DM'ed finds the guy attractive, lol. Male model with a blue check and 50k followers DM's this girl to buy her dinner - I'm sure she'd find that suuuuper creepy and ignore it!  /s 

OP - I don't think you need to cut off contact with this person, but to me it sounds like your fundamental values don't really align, which doesn't make for a good long-term relationship of any kind (friendship, romantic relationship, business partnership, etc.). Every now and then someone says or does something which we can't un-see and tells you something about their fundamental values. And to your point - there are many women out there who do not have this attitude, but they are harder to find and not as likely to be on Bumble IME. 

Anyways, I've found many women these days are incredibly entitled, especially the upper-middle class woke white chicks. Why these women think they "deserve" to have it all is beyond me. When I'm talking to a woman - I'm thinking "what value are you adding to my life?"...

  • Business School in IB - Ind
Apr 6, 2021 - 11:13am

Girls like her are the reason Kevin Samuels is popular.

According to him, she won't find that guy to marry so don't get upset. You are right it is kind of a fucked up way to go about it BUT girls that use their physical prime to hook up and have fun lose value in the eyes of the man they want to marry in the future. The guy she wants to marry in the future that has a good personality with money and stability will just want a younger more agreeable version of her that is gone. Probably wants a more attractive girl tbh.

I am NOT saying every guy wants wants a girl that hasn't played around but ON AVERAGE "high value men" as Kevin Samuels calls it, want agreeable, attractive, submissive women, that have minimal sexual

experience. Again this is all from Kevin Samuels, if you don't like him for some reason I get it but I think the guy has some great points.

Religious texts are filled with men wanting virgin women. Some guys will say stuff like "I want someone experienced!" and that is fine and their preference. But overall, the average man, according to the data, prefers his woman to be less or not sexually experienced. Just basic science.

Apr 7, 2021 - 8:20am

What?  This post almost looks to be written by a female in a bad sorority. 
girls can sniff out guys who have all these worries and insecurities like your post seems to portray.  You gotta chill and just enjoy yourself and then they will want to chill with you.  Maybe in the city there is a more commoditized view on things, but by and large chicks are willing to date/hookup with dudes that are average and even below average vs what they can get IF they enjoy the guys company.  I've seen it a million times.  

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