GS/MS S&T vs IB at less "prestigious" banks for Summer
Hey all,
Sorry if this seems like a very uninformed question, I don't want to seem like I'm choosing things off a whim and I know the dichotomy between S&T and banking has been beaten to death. I'm looking to see if anyone may have had a similar decision to make for a summer internship and insight in terms of your career progression and exit opps between the two.
In terms of what I'd prefer on a day to day basis, I feel like being on the trading floor would be much more exciting and would clearly provide a better lifestyle to banking. At the same time however, I've read exit opps are limited to more trading or a HF, of which I'm not sure I'd be 100% interested in come a year or two in the job (also not a heavy quant).
On the other hand, I feel like I'd hate the banking lifestyle (can manage ECM and would also correlate to my interest in the markets, but have read here you might as well do S&T so you have a pure skill rather than a mix) but I'm attracted to the exit opps, not necessarily in PE but in potentially creating my own business, running different businesses, and doing international work (this really appeals to me).
With all this in mind, would it be somewhat possible to assume that the GS/MS brand will be able to take me far in terms of potentially having a managerial role in a startup, or other company, despite not having solid valuation skills or many transferable skills? (Also considering B-School, I know it's not too common among S&T people).
Maybe just dump it all and do consulting?
Thanks for any insight!!
The reality is that the "banking lifestyle" is going to be somewhat similar to what you'd face starting your own business. I have a member of my extended family who is the founder of an industry leader startup that has been featured in multiple business publications, and he puts in about as many hours as an IBD analyst. I also know people who run less financially profitable but more fun businesses like micro breweries and gyms...THEY put in crazy hours. My trainer buddy would routinely wake up at 5AM to run his morning classes, and then train clients or be working on management of the business until 8PM barring time shuttling kids around, and he'd do this six days a week. My old boss who started a brewery has even worse hours: he has to supervise marketing, finances, daily operations, and it's difficult for him to outsource his brewing process since the business is based off of his award winning recipes.
Thank you for your insight, Spider. Definitely something to consider, although I imagine it'd be a lot more fulfilling working 100 hours/week as CEO of your own industry leading company vs doing analyst banking work (not to depreciate it in any way). Right now, I'm somewhat leaning to S&T over the Summer to get a true finance and "Wall St." experience and potentially, do it again or jump into consulting FT in order to gain some managerial experience (not to say I won't be doing plenty of grunt work in consulting).
Doesn't sound like its even a close call--go S&T. Better brand, more suitable lifestyle. especially since you're not sure what you want to do, don't make a decision based on exit opps at this point.
Brand doesn't mean shit. I was in a situation similar to yours and went with the GS/MS brand - had an absolutely miserable summer because I wanted to be in banking so badly and ended up not being able to enjoy myself at all as I had to aggressively network for FT interviews. Like you said, you won't get any transferable skills or valuation knowledge - you're worthless without those. Nobody gives half a shit that you work at GS/MS.
Take IBD at the other bank. Prestige is complete and utter bullshit unless you're comparing apples to apples.
Ridiculous statement. Brand isn't everything to be sure, but it definitely means something. It sounds like you had a rough experience but that doesn't mean that applies to everyone. OP said he thinks he would hate the banking lifestyle. Sounds like that was a minus for you too.
Yes, but that "something" isn't necessarily what exit opps will be looking for.
They'll care even less if you try to work in a startup environment or start your own business. Having market trading skills means very little for a startup(you're rarely exposed to an enormous amount of market risk, as the companies are usually don't have either publicly traded securities or massive FOREX exposure). On the other hand knowing how to analyze problems from a financial perspective will make you a key member of any startup's management team.
Do IBD. It's vastly more versatile even without the name, and anyone currently working on the street will tell that if you really need to it's usually not hard to lateral to a better firm.
Is this for junior year? What is this "less prestigious" bank?
Generally speaking, I would say IBD offers more optionality for full-time recruiting and also long-term. It sounds like you are not sure what you want to do, so I would recommend that route for a few reasons.
Corporate development roles look for people with M&A experience specifically. The reason being most companies are acquiring brands, competitors, etc., more often they are taking a subsidiary or themselves public. The conversations I have had with people in corp dev leadership roles have said financing work is a completely useless experience, so I imagine S&T being even less relevant.
I have been working on a start-up recently and the VCs I have met / sought advice from did at least a summer in IBD (may just be regional because I was speaking to people from the NYC start-up scene).
As for consulting, I would definitely reach out to the recruiters for your campus or recent grads and mention you want to apply for full-time opportunities and ask them what would be more attractive. On my campus, the few people who successfully recruiting for full-time consulting opportunities summered in IBD. There were a few IM summers that received offers, but I can't think of anyone from S&T who did (but this could also be because most people who summer in S&T want to stay in S&T).
I will say brand matters, but only if you're comparing similar offers. As Spider said, it isn't terribly difficult to lateral from IBD at one bank to another, but it would be harder to go from S&T into IBD. I'm not sure what your recruiting process is, but have you thought about shopping your offer? If you are going to lateral at the end of the summer, why not take the opportunity to leverage the offer now to get IBD at GS/MS/JPM? I know several people who leveraged another IBD offer to get into those firms. Or talk to HR at MS/GS about interviewing for banking. I'm sure they'd want to retain you on either side of the business rather than letting you go to a competing firm. I received offers for both S&T / IBD at GS and IBD and GCM at MS, so it's doable. PM if you have any questions about either firm.
What if the non-GS/MS IB offer is in a regional office?
Thanks for the opinions guys. There were certainly good points made, namely the fact that I would be a lot more marketable coming out of an IB program than an S&T program. In this instance, do you think ECM/Cap Markets would be a good middle ground? I have read on this forum that it's too much of a "middle ground" and one doesn't get to specialize in anything. But are the exit opps still comparable to banking in terms of being > than S&T (minus perhaps going to a PE because of the lack of modeling experience?)
Another somewhat unrelated question: what does it take to be "top of your class" or a "superstar" as an analyst in IB or S&T? Just someone with a good personality who doesn't fuck up? In that case, where is it easier to not fuck up?
ON AN EVEN MORE UNRELATED NOTE: If I maybe, one day, consider running for office, and I want to develop a network of wealthy donors and campaign supporters, would S&T or IB give me more exposure to this "network" at a junior level (i.e. not comparing MDs because I don't plan on staying that far in).
Thanks a bunch guys!
You are out in the ether now. Most fellow analysts won't end up staying as far as MD either and so any 'network' you may have (if you even stay in touch with many of your peers) is likely to end up middle class or upper middle class over time - probably not what you're envisioning. Doing banking or s&t to meet analysts who will one day contribute to your political campaigns? You are making connections where there are none...
Ecm will provide a valid skillset and probably a far more useful one than any s&t job.
Do you like markets, or startups, or political office?
Go do consulting, that sounds like your best bet. By the way if you actuallu want to do consulting, banking will get you there much faster than a random s&t internship.
Interesting, would anyone else care to chime in on how consulting recruiters view previous FO internships at banks? My impression was that consulting recruiters just look at name brands on your resume and a GS/MS stamp on there would suffice as so.
In terms of your question regarding market, startups, or political office: I can see myself thriving in a managerial role in a start-up and the entrupenirual environment there. That being said, in terms of an entry level gig, the markets are more exciting and you interact with them as a S&T analyst. Political offices: that's something I'd consider 20 years from now after solidifying a career elsewhere, it was more of a joke that I mentioned (although not really because it is in the back of my mind). Either way, I appreciate your comment, and I will look more into ECM (have also heard there is mobility between S&T and Cap Markets)
Haha I'm aware that-on first sight- it may not seem like a logical correlation, but I plan on spinning it very well. My district/where I grew up in NYC encompasses a unique contingent of voters: they make up the richest neighborhoods in Park Ave. and Midtown, as well as a heavy immigrant community in one of the outer boroughs where I grew up in after my parents immigrated to this country/district. I have (at least in my opinion) a very well laid out story and the personality to match. But alas, that is something I would consider 20 years down the line, if it is still an interest of mine.
He can be VP when Chelsea Clinton runs for president. You know how the Clinton family loves wall st guys.
Still no concrete skill set out of Capital Markets (ECM, DCM, Lev Fin). Of the three you will get the most modeling experience in Lev Fin. Lev Fin is better than S&T, but its arguably still inferior to IBD in terms of acquired skill set, exit opps (PE or otherwise--consulting, corp dev, etc.) unless you're in one of the top Lev Fin groups on the street.
I also should've included this before my question, but I wanted to extend a warm thank you to the WSO Community for helping me arrive at these offers. I come from a non-target and through the hunger and work ethic I've developed, along with the tips I've received off here, I am now able to decide between a few options that regardless I'm sure will have a positive impact on my career (doesn't hurt to making more than your parents ever have and jumping out of the poverty threshold your first year out of college!) I will post my story on here someday.
Seriously bro, congrats! I'd take the S&T. All depends on what your goals are though.
bump
Would internal mobility be a possibility to say, a different trading desk or to Cap Markets?
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