Hong Kong Protests

Do you see the Hong Kong protests ending anytime soon? How do you think this will alter Chinese government and society? Frankly, I continue to be in awe at the protests going on in Hong Kong. I find it strange that not more countries are supporting the protesters. Any thoughts?

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Nov 19, 2019 - 8:22pm

LOL if the protestors can do whatever they want to do like harrassing and beating other people who disagree with them, what's the difference between the so called protestors and terriosts?

  • Prospect in Other
Nov 19, 2019 - 8:31pm

LOL if the police can do whatever they want to do like harrassing and beating other citizens who disagree with them, what's the difference between the so called police and terriosts?

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Nov 19, 2019 - 9:10pm

I do not agree with the Communist Party of China, but I really don't know what can be done. I support the sentiment of the protests, but I fear it will only make Xi roll his tanks in.

Most Helpful
Nov 19, 2019 - 11:18pm

Feels like I have to write sth here. If u see my previous post, u will know I am a college student in Hong Kong. I understand not many people know the full picture of the full picture of the whole protest, so lemme give you guys a view from the protester side.

The whole protest thing is started from an extradition bill to China. Hong Kong people do not believe in the judicial system in China and hence massive demonstration in 9 June and 12 June to voice out our opinion. Those are extremely peaceful protest, with 1 million and 2 millions of people respectively. That is like almost 25% of the population standing out (2 in 8 million) to voice their opposition towards the bill. However, the next day Chief Executive Carrie Lam say that she sees the opinion of the public, yet she is still continuing the second-read of the law no matter what, completely ignoring the voice of the public.

As we can see, HK government do not listen to peaceful protests, hence some people wish to use more aggressive protest to stop the bill, which include breaking into Legco in 1 July. And that actually stop the bill from progressing onwards as we fight till the end on that session of Legco. Then, after a couple of weeks, Carrie Lam came out and use different terms like "postpone indefinitely", "the bill is dead" or whatever to try to say they are not continuing the bill. Some of you may think that we have achieve the original aim here. But thats simply not the case, it is just a disguised trick of Carrie Lam. Under Basic Law, only "withdraw" indicates the completely withdrawal of the Bill (the next time anyone wanna come again with the same law, they have to start from the very start), for any other words Carrie Lam used, she can use come again with the exact same law and starting straight from second-read and pass the bill within one day. So, for the incidents of Bill, Carrie Lam officially announce the withdrawal of the Bill after TWO MONTHs.

But till then, the problem is not only on the bill anymore. Police Force has been abusing their power, perhaps with the permission of the HK gov. First, there is no number or anything shown to prove the authenticity of the Police (which was previously shown and actually required in the law). Then, police has repeatedly using over violent (actually lethal) weapon towards a bunch of peaceful protester with little to no weapon. Police use pepper spray, tear gas, sponge grenade, rubber baton rounds, water canon and even real bullets toward protesters with only umbrellas. There are multiple incidents that protestors and even reporters are getting shot without holding anything in their hand. Third, it has been multiple accuse of Police illegally hit and torture protesters they arrested. Protesters got arrested without injuries and got release with bone cracks and injuries all over the body. Some may even disappeared and got found dead in a random place. (Here is one example, a young swimming athlete was found dead, naked, in the sea and police say there is nothing suspicious. Wiki here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeathofChan_Yin-lam but you should google for the news) There is also accuse of police gang raping female protesters inside the Police Station and actually making one pregnant (news released from a nurse when the protestor go and get rid of the baby).

And now, police are become crazier and crazier, firing 1xxx tear gas a day in Chinese University of Hong Kong last week. Now currently, they are changing the battlefield to another University, Polytechnic University and has fired over 2000 bullets within a day. And what is the most important is that, after firing tens of thousands of tear gas in the first four to five months, Police lack the stock of US tear gas, and started to use Mainland produced tear gas. Mainland tear gas is much higher in temperature which will actually burn and release "dioxin". Dioxin is a very harmful chemical and will lead to people getting cancer, giving birth to abnormal babies.

I understand that some may criticise the violent act of the protestors that you guys may see in the TV. Yet, I believe it is not only our fault, we were forced to do so, we tried to be very peaceful as well.

Sorry for having such long comment, feel free to drop me a pm or reply to ask me any question about HK!

Edit1: delete duplicate parts

haha just an ordinary kid with enthusiasm in the market -- market-enthusiast/ Hongkonger
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Nov 20, 2019 - 1:41am

I once thought Hong Kong is still safe, as long as "One country, Two system" still stand (claimed to stand for 50 years, till 2047). But turns out it is too naive to believe in the so called promise from China.

And the worst thing is that, there are still many "patriotic" people blindly support CCP and the HK Police abusing their power (in their mind, it is correctly using the power to stop violence). The most ridiculous incident is, just a few week ago, one traffic cop pulled out his gun and shoot at a protester with literally no weapon. Of course, the protester was deeply in pain and lied on the floor. And some nearby "patriotics", not caring how bad the protester was hurt, but stand next to the traffic cop, clapping hands and appreciates the act of the cop. It is just ridiculous to me and I never thought something this brutal can actually be praised.

But anyway, noone knows what is gonna happen and how its gonna end. As a college student, basically I am stuck here until graduation and I dont know how to escape. At least I still have a little hope of leaving, but those even younger, like those in high school or even primary. It is just a dead end in my view. Sigh

haha just an ordinary kid with enthusiasm in the market -- market-enthusiast/ Hongkonger
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Nov 20, 2019 - 4:08am

What are your thoughts on the theory that western countries are intervening in the protests (e.g. making it worse)?

Nov 20, 2019 - 4:24am

It highly depends how to define intervention.

Basically western countries can't make influence in the protest itself ( for this I referring to like on how the protest is going to be / where the protest start and so on those actual stuff) as all the protest are actually organized without a official organizing group. They are just random people calling out on internet forums and protesters come out and join voluntarily. (You may think it as ME opening a post on WSO stating a Dinner Gathering in NYC at ard 8, then anyone interested will be coming themselves)

But then, western countries are intervening through a political mean. For example, the Hong Kong Bill just passed in the US senate. Which in my opinion is actually helping Hong Kongers in this fight for freedom as it put threats to CCP. Hong Kong can not win on our own, as apart from the finance hub, we don't have any status or special value to the CCP. We need international support. And that's why we are constantly using means like twitter, reddit to share the news and hope internationals will put pressure on such incidents and help us out and stand against the China and CCP.

All in all, Hong Kong NEED international support, maybe u can call that intervention as well, to put presuure. Like we are all now waiting the Bill to implement and see how will it affect the stance of China and CCP.

haha just an ordinary kid with enthusiasm in the market -- market-enthusiast/ Hongkonger
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  • Analyst 1 in S&T - FI
Nov 20, 2019 - 9:05am

Hey, great reply but I'm going to add a bit of my views, from an expat here in Hong Kong. I've been in Hong Kong almost close to 4 years now, and I do call this city my second home.

Some cold, hard facts- look, these protests have had a large hit on Hong Kong's economy. Who struggles the most if Hong Kong's economy slows down? Yup, you guessed it... it's the protesters (who, I believe, are mostly made up of students and middle income workers). Also, I think that these protests no longer have any aim. The protesters constantly talk about the 5 demands. Won't talk about the other 4- but talking about the most unreasonable one- which is amnesty for arrested protesters. This basically goes against so-called "rule of law" that Hong Kong boasts. So protesters break and burn things, vandalize the MTRs, close down roads, and you expect the HK government to pardon these people?

It seems here that I'm pro-police... but no, I feel that the police brutality in the past few months has been unreasonable and uncalled for. Yes, the beatings are unacceptable, and all the allegations into what the police has done is worrying.

But as an expat... I really cannot fathom what the protesters are doing to their own city. What's the end game? Do you expect the HK government (or China) to bow down to the demands? And if so- does HK think that it can survive by itself? HK gets its water, food, and resources from China. Not to mention that companies have their Asian HQ in HK because they view it as a gateway to China. What happens if Hong Kong is independent- do you think that HK will still enjoy the same standards of living?

Nov 20, 2019 - 10:19am

There is no endgame. The truth is all the jobs in HK are going to mainlanders because most business is done in China. Future prospects for recent grads are very bleak. The practical move is to start a new life in Shenzhen or Guangzhou but HK people are too proud to do so. The only alternative is to protest and hope something will change. You and I both know that's not going to happen

Nov 20, 2019 - 10:20am

Great view there, appreciate that. Would appreciate more people to join the discussion.

First thing, regarding to your concern over the amnesty for arrested protesters, when we take a look at previous "revolutions" in other places, like the Sunflower Student Movement in Taiwan or like the "Student Riot" in London. People there also break and burn things, close down roads and hang up the traffic. And after it being settled and the government respond to the opinion of the protesters, those protesters are either not charged any crime in court, or with light judgement. Though of course, every protester coming out understand the consequences of facing imprisonment, but the point is they are often charged "Riot" and will be facing 10 years of imprisonment when all they do is just relatively peaceful stuff. And on the other hand, police killing people are having zero consequence. So my point here is actually, amnesty is obviously good to the protesters. But even no amnesty, noone should be charged "Riot" due to their act.

As for you stating that protester contribute to a great hit on Hong Kong's economy. Well, that's our aim here. You probably heard the phrase "if we burn, you burn with us" among the protesters. As we know, Hong Kong will die, eventually. What the protester planned to do here is actually, one, use Hong Kong's economy and status as a bet to force CCP to respond to our demands (Hong Kong is still kinda valuable to CCP as a offshore RMB platform), if else we are able to contribute to the destruction of CCP as we will be dead anyway, just the matter of time. So that is kinda the objective now.

The protesters are all people who truly love Hong Kong and treasure it as a hometown. If you sir, as an expat, cant stand people doing sth like that to Hong Kong, which is your second hometown, believe me, it is even worse to the protesters who love Hong Kong way more. And obviously, we do not think it is possible for Hong Kong to remain such high international status after like getting rid of China, let alone the possibility of that. But we treasure freedom much more than just money or material. If we don't do this, we will eventually lose our status and become one ordinary city in China anyway. If the end scene is already fixed, why don't we fight for the dream, if we dont try, we will never succeed.

These are just some of my opinion, but to be completely honest, I don't know what the end game will be, noone knows.

haha just an ordinary kid with enthusiasm in the market -- market-enthusiast/ Hongkonger
Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

That's my personal opinion, agree it or not is up to you. But if you are pointing out it is factually wrong and meant to misguide, please do point out where instead of just saying it is wrong.

haha just an ordinary kid with enthusiasm in the market -- market-enthusiast/ Hongkonger
Nov 19, 2019 - 11:22pm


haha just an ordinary kid with enthusiasm in the market -- market-enthusiast/ Hongkonger
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Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

Okay before I say anything I know I will probably get MS. Anyway.

hey you, market-enthusiast, yes, you. There are many ways to frame a government and since you are posting this stuff on a Western finance forum, people likely will have the built-in bias that "hey HK is a democracy and China is a communist country so everything the Chinese do is bad". This is like what Dani Rodrik writes in his books "some people say hey free market is good and government intervention is bad --- this is just wrong (Rodrik says this is wrong)".

Some protesters in HK are really becoming terrorists and some of them are not normal HK citizens or students, but are agitated by foreign parties or some groups who intentionally try to damage the Chinese government. This is barely covered in mainstream Western media platforms because almost all mainstream Western media platforms/a lot of Western people who do not know China well enough still believe China is a communist country with evil thoughts on toppling democracy. If democracy means Donald Trump and huge anti-abortion funding from dumb politicians and people-manipulating religious groups, sure.

I suggest people to look at the protest without the prejudice that "hey HK should be/is democratic and China is autocratic and therefore everything the Chinese government does is wrong."
How many of you who are lambasting the Chinese government have been to China, know the Chinese politics well? How many of you have studied the Chinese and the HK histories, or at least one of them. well? Why Thatcher agreed reluctantly to "give Hong Kong back to China"? Because HK has been part of China many years ago and it was under British rule for a while, that's it.

The funny thing is some Hk protesters --- not policemen thx --- somehow thought they were superior back when they were ruled by the UK. That is simply WRONG. Check Shawn Ley, a BBC commentator. He had a conversation with a stupid HK congressman who claimed HK people had better rights and were more "human" under the rule of the UK. Shawn Ley was totally confused because "no, that was simply not true". The stupid HK congressman smiled awkwardly for 5 seconds and moved on to something else without responding to this point.

They are proud of their "history" ?--- this is just hilarious because compared to ~5k years of Chinese history HK has 0 history. This is a fact. The protesters are somehow obsessed with some kind of pride. This is more hilarious and ridiculous.

HK has been on a political and financial demise for a while. A lot of financial activities have been steadily moving into Shenzhen, Shanghai, and relevant geographical areas. If people in HK still do not see this, they are burying themselves.

Of course not all protesters are bad --- a lot of them are poor or from the lower middle class, but it is not correct to blame the Chinese government for everything since there are too many capitalists in HK who are to blame for the impoverishment of those protesters. And indeed there are some political missteps or mistreatment from the Chinese mainland side, but hey, it is a big country, it is not an easy task to rule such a big country. I believe Mr. Trump will agree on this point no?

So this guy "market-enthusiast" --- I am 95% confident that he is probably one of those HKnese protesters who hate China because he does not understand the history very well. Yes I did not elaborate on the complicated history but that is something you can read.

The police has been abusing their power --- this is just absurd considering how some protesters have been abusing their power too and attacking the police in the first place. Why don't you mention this?
No way to prove the authenticity of the police...you are just being delusional here. Some policemen are sent from the nearby GuangDong province --- in English known as Canton --- so of course they do not possess a HK passport or police ID.

Policemen raping --- there are far better ways to frame the police. There might be a lot of bad things about the Chinese, but DISCIPLINE has never been one of them. Please do not make yourself funny here.

Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

A few quick response here
1) I wonder how much have you actually studied the Chinese and the HK histories, or at least one of them, simply quoted from your text. What i can say is, I understand it is hard for foreigners to understand these stuff. But the one with 5000+ years of history is "Republic of China" but not the current "People's Republic of China", which is directly linked to the Communist Party. We recognized ourselves as ethnic Chinese, or u may linked with "Han" if that's the word used in western world. But not Chinese as a citizen of China. This fundamental difference is key. So actually, Hong Kong did have a longer history than Communist Party of China. Though, there is nothing to be proud about or anything special.

2) "The police has been abusing their power --- this is just absurd considering how some protesters have been abusing their power too and attacking the police in the first place. Why don't you mention this?"
Yea, seems you have a special definition of abusing power. Protesters are demonstrating legally, Police fire tear gases. Protestors with umbrella, bricks and so, Police fire real bullets, not to mention even to those who do not even carry bricks and umbrellas.
Protesters are illegal according to the law, and they are facing the consequences of getting arrested, waiting to get to the court. That's how the protesters should be. But Police Force is trained and PROFESSIONAL, they should be responsible in arresting people with suitable with a police ID (allowing people to check who that particular poice is). Yet they are using unreasonable violence, hitting people for fun, deliberately drive a motor car at high speed toward a huge group of protester, and not to mention causing people's injuries and even death. Yet they face NO consequences. And that is not an abuse of power?
Even more ridiculous is that, you are justifying that some policemen are sent form the nearby GuangDong province so of course they do not possess a HK passport or police ID. For god sake, please try to understand the law first. Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region, China should and must not intervene Hong Kong with any police force apart from the PLA stationed inside Hong Kong. And even for the PLA, they have to got the permission before walking out and start their mission. So, you are talking about sth unlawful and treating it as me delusional. Tho rule of law is just a joke now for Hong Kong

3) If u do not believe in police raping, murdering, and treat that as me framing the police. Perhaps you may go on to twitter and search for some hashtags like #HongKongPolice or anything about Hong Kong, just go and check out yourself. There are tons of footage that we put up using twitter with evidence of Police committing such crime and yet getting no consequences.

I do understand there is an information gap here between me as a local and you as a foreigners. Some news may lost in translation and some may just not being translated. And yet, I recommend next time, before saying having 95% confident or what not, do some research of the issue beforehand, especially when you are talking about laws and culture of a place you don't really know. Cheers.

haha just an ordinary kid with enthusiasm in the market -- market-enthusiast/ Hongkonger
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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

Oh you mean the China with 5000+ years of history is "Republic of China" whose president tries so hard to claim it's not China? Man, if you represent the ppl in HK, I realize why HK's been falling.

Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

I don't think you understand the perspective of people from Hong Kong. England was given the territory after the Opium wars. When they were given Hong Kong, there were less than 3,000 people there. In the next 150 years, the city and surrounding parts were transformed into an economic powerhouse. Hong Kong has always been against Chinese policy because they feel like they developed independently of the Chinese economic system. A really good example would be the political fall out that occurred during the Tiananmen Square protest. Before protesters were killed in the square, there were protests in Hong Kong supporting the movement. Many Hong Kong citizens were worried about Chinese policy because of the upcoming meeting between Thatcher and Zhao Ziyang. You also incorrectly classify the nature of that meeting. Thatcher wanted to keep Hong Kong and Zhao Ziyang would literally only negotiate on the basis that Hong Kong would return to the Chinese. I understand your point of Hong Kong being part of China for thousands of years, but during that time it was a sparsely populated area that was an outpost for pirates. In the years since, it has grown to an economic juggernaut with a population of almost 8 million people. Furthermore, as a critique of Chinese policy, there are around only 90 million people in the communist party that is suppose to represent 1.4 billion people. The entire government is corrupt with nepotism and Xi Jinping recently allowed himself to have a term for life. I have a friend that is from a place two hours outside of Shanghai. I recently asked him what the Chinese think of politics. He responded with saying that people do not care about politics in China because they have no input anyway. To summarize, your understanding of Hong Kong is wrong and I don't understand your argument about the people on this forum not understanding what is wrong with an autocratic Chinese government.

Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

I did not classify the nature of the meeting at all. The fact that you are pulling the "Tiananmen square protest" into this indicates that you are one of those people I mentioned in the post with pre-built bias.
There are people who are not satisfied with their own country's politics everywhere and I am not sure why when one of those people is Chinese it becomes a big deal.

I am Chinese, so I naturally have defensive attitude on the protest. I also do not think you have a complete saying here. The guy I was lambasting, at least he is either from HK or China, so we are on kind of equal grounds.

Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

As someone who was born in China but has spent last ~10 years in the States for education and work, I want to encourage everyone on this forum to not jump to conclusion just based on what media tell you (rule #1 for understanding any matter). Asking any friend / family / colleague who is currently in Hong Kong will give you a way better idea of what's actually going on there in terms of how violence began and whether or not there is truly a point to the violence being used.

From what I understand and have seen, Hong Kong has a long history of peaceful, non violent protest, and Hong Kong police has never (or very rarely) been violent against any of those protests even though most of the previous protests were "pro-democracy" and "anti-CCP", so I highly doubt when you said the protesters were "forced" to act violently as a result of police brutality in the first place.

The nature of this protest in particular has been very decentralized, meaning that the protest can get very ugly, which it has, due to a lack of overarching guideline of non violence, and the police is forced to react in a violent way in order to ensure the safety of others, which is their duty. I can't post links, but here are a few examples:

YouTube - search "Watch Hong Kong Protesters Attack JPMorgan Banker": JPM banker gets beaten up for saying "We are all Chinese". How does that have anything to do with police brutality??

YouTube - search "Dramatic Footage Shows Hong Kong Police Shooting at Protesters in the Street": Here is a footage of Hong Kong police shooting a protester who attempted to grab the police's gun. Imagine how long it'd take a U.S. cop to shoot someone making the same attempt?

YouTube - seatch "Exclusive on HK: Wife of man set on fire explains her family's pain": A senior Hong Kong citizen gets set on fire by protesters and eventually passes away a few days ago just because he did not agree with the protesters. There are a lot more real footage like those two on Youtube and other sites, and I don't see why any of those can possibly be blamed on "police brutality".

On a grander scheme, here is a link of Tim Sebastian interviewing one of the student leaders Youtube - search "HK student leader QUESTIONED about legitimacy of protests and violence being used" , who can't look into Tim's eyes when Tim questioned her about the legitimacy of using violence. Carrie Lam has already pulled the unpopular legislation, so what is the reason for more violence, destruction and beating up random, innocent people?

Imagine this type of law breaking stuff happening in the States, or any other civilized countries? How long would it take for the U.S. government to dispatch police force with tear gas and etc? It seems to me a perfect example of double standard when it comes to anything related to CCP, or the mainland China. Would you say the same when it happens in your own country in your own hometown? Let's not forget what history can teach us - how many innocent people were killed in the French Revolution by a small group of people craving for political power and control for their own benefits disguised in the name of "freedom" and "democracy".

Once again, I am not in Hong Kong and, given my background, I could be biased in my commentary, but I think anyone with slight degree of humanity wouldn't agree with this type of violence, even in a protest.

Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

Probably will be the last comment for me here, still have other stuff to do. I 100% agree that you should not jump to the conclusion just base on whoever tell you, including me ofc.

Just a little bit of response here, some of your videos mentioned i haven't really searched and go through that, I will just go for what i know for now.

First thing, "Imagine this type of law breaking stuff happening in the States, or any other civilized countries?" If this is in the States, 25% of population coming out voice out fo opposition will lead to immediately withdrawal or immediate actions from the government then there will be no protest.

Now back to those videos, I will response to two incident as I have not watch the other videos better not respond that before I know what really happened.

First for the "Dramatic Footage Shows Hong Kong Police Shooting at Protesters in the Street", I don't really see where you see the protestor attempt to grab the police's gun? Maybe you are referring to the white shirt guy? Tho I doubt how he can grab the gun with that action. But what we can see from that video is, a traffic cop suddenly pulled out his gun and point to a protestor with no weapon and came close and directly point to his heart. Perhaps you may first justify this move. Then, you think the white clothes guy is attempting to grab the gun? I dont know how he can possibly grab the gun from that far away.

Second will be the on fire video of the man. First of all, the man claimed himself to be a police and tried to attack the protester at first, then the protester fight back. And of course I will say the protester is being too violence on this. But the truth is, the "fired man" actually get on the ambulance by himself, and he has not passed away. He has just finished with his transplant of skin. I am not sure why China Global Television Network deliberately portray him dead.

And for you saying that Hong Kong was a safe state and we cant blame on police brutality for current situation. I am sorry but there are multiple incidents (e.g. 721 Yuen Long incident, 831 Prince Edward Incidents) showing that Police are deliberately hitting protester and even passer-by. And there are also times that protesters who are just trying to make the Lennon Wall are getting knifed, a District Councilor even got bitten off his ears. Google on that if you can. "Hong Kong Politician get bitten off ears" or anything similar, you can see it on BBC.

One last thing i wanna say is, obviously sometime protesters may be violent but at the same time those "patriots" and Police are equally violence. I welcome everyone to talk about protesters' violence and work on how they can improve their ways of protesting. But it is just insane to see that, when "patriots" and Police are being violence and hitting people, deliberetely drives motorcycle towards the crowd, you remained silence. And when you see the burning man, you came out and condemn violence, and you told me you just wanna talk about that particular incident.

haha just an ordinary kid with enthusiasm in the market -- market-enthusiast/ Hongkonger
Nov 20, 2019 - 10:21am

Thanks for your response, and below are my thoughts to some of your points.

First thing. There is a material difference between "25% of population coming out to voice out their opinions" vs. "25% of population coming out to voice out their opinions with violence". Honestly, burning things down and occasional physical combat are probably okay and unavoidable anyways, but now we are talking about thousands of Hong Kong protesters actively going around the street and college campus using violence. Also, I can guarantee you if any protest in the States had turned into such chaotic, violent scene as is in Hong Kong, "immediate actions" from the government will be tear gases and guns, and we have seen that. We in the States have seen pretty chaotic and violent protests around class conflict and racial issues, but Hong Kong protesters really brought the use of violence to a whole different level, even for the States.

Now back to the videos. First, the white shirt guy, who is masked too therefore a protester as well, is clearly struggling and trying to tackle the cop down, while the other masked guy is approaching the cop to grab his gun, and that is why he got shot. I don't know which crazy part of the world you are from, but at least in States, when cops tell you to stop and submit, you do it, otherwise you get shot.

Second, are you seriously downplaying the fact that this man gets set on fire and it is okay because he is still alive??? Seems to me a good representation of what's going on in many Hong Kong protesters' minds..

By the way you should really watch the video of JPM banker getting beaten up because there is no good excuse around that one.

Third, to your police brutality point. While you can throw out those incidents, I can do the same but this doesn't really help our argument here. Violence tends to come from both sides, but at least at this stage of the protest I feel the violence used by the police is justified and is a necessity to prevent more innocent people from getting hurt.

Lastly, please point me to any video footage where the police or "patriots" used violence against the protesters for no reason. It is hard for me to fathom because as a matter of fact, Hong Kong protesters have an absolute advantage in terms of numbers (as you said, 25% of the population), so anyone who used violence against such a massive group people are very likely either insane or doing that out of self-defense.

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