How’s working in Hong Kong?
Considering spending An3 abroad in Hong Kong at my American BB.
I was just wondering what it’s like working there. I know the culture is heavily influenced by the mainland, but if I decided to stay (at a desk not focused on the mainland), would it be significantly harder to progress than it would be back in New York as a non-Chinese speaker?
I head that it was a nice place to work before the protests.
day-to-day life doesn't change much before or after the protests
in any case it's a great place to live for now because COVID is under control
can't say the same about NY or London
Ok Xi.
This didn't age well lol
One of my girlfriend’s friends used to work for a BB in their m&a group. Apparently it was really bad that she quit before two years and had to check in to rehab lol. This might just be an odd case though
The intensity in Asia is quite different - you will realise that the technical requirements are much lighter but you spend more time doing bs client works.
HK chicks are cute thou, and probably the only place where chicks actually get turned on by where you work.
Are you kidding me? Chicks getting turned on by where you work hahaha
In a place where the income inequality gap is insurmountable and finance makes up c. 20% of its GDP, an ordinary college graduate chick on the street of HK would know the term Investment Banker and MS, GS, and JPM. They have no idea what they do thou other than it makes higher than average salary.
hong kong girls are famous for being mosquito bites - if you know what I mean. :P
The technicals requirements are lighter?
I expected them to be a lot stronger, but that's because of stereotypes regarding Asia I think.
Can confirm it’s lighter.
Can confirm this is 50% correct. Your job title, where you work, where you live, how much assets you have are all important criteria in Asian society.
Low pay. Long hours. I think they have protected Sundays do to labor laws.
Make no mistake HK pays more than NY and London, especially after tax.
You still have to pay US tax if you’re American. You get exempted on double taxation and the first 100k in taxable income after that, but then you pay full US taxes on everything past that, and that first 100k still counts for tax bracket purposes.
Edit: Actually, I'm not sure if it's the 100k exemption is on the first 100k after HK tax or if they just consider it as the first 100k period, but I think it's the former.
I've seen most BBs in Hong Kong pay more than in NY, check your facts prospect
OP - if its a year and you have a ready line back home, it's well worth the experience. I lived and worked in HK for over a decade, and most of it was pre-protest (and was awesome). Just make sure you don't get stuck (unless you want to). I'd say its a great short term trade, even with what's going on now. Keep your connectivity to home base and make sure you have that ticket out.
Also like another poster said, it will probably be much less technical (ie. excel). I didn't do banking but Asia is generally much more client focused/social/personal in nature. That means work and social can mix, and hours can be long and there can be a lot of BS on that side.
Good Luck
Did you speak any other language or just English? If just English, how did you manage with work and your day-to-day life in HK?
Thanks
I speak two Asian languages (not fluently though). Almost all of my work (like 99.9%) was in English. The Asian languages helped for getting around the region, for surprising business counterparts, but most often for just listening without them knowing that I spoke it. Ie. being a spy. To really use language (like pitching, structuring etc), got to be a native (usually), and that's something I'm not. There is so much talent from native Chinese, Koreans, Indians etc...
In short managing life and day to day was easy.
Very interesting to finally read someone's view on Asia cultural aspects (relations).
I first got confused as why the technicals were "lower" but it now makes sense.
Would you say it is evolving to a more occidental approach nowadays?
Nope- as HK becomes more and more “chinese” due to Xi’s push, I expect it to become so much more like the mainland (where trust aka personal relations are key)
what made living in HK awesome?
I grew up in Hong Kong and live in the US now. Hong Kong is a great place to live, especially if you have a well-paid job and can afford to rent a decent apartment. The nightlife is fantastic (at least pre-protest & covid), clubs and bars are affordable compared to NY or London, amazing restaurants, public transport is among the best in the world, and there is a lot of nature (hiking, beaches, watersports, boat parties) literally 15-30 minutes away from the city.
I think go for it -- will be valuable life experience if it is just a 1 year stint. At the same time, would warn that banking in Asia is a lot of pitching, not very technical, and extremely long hours -- what I've seen in SG / HK / Tokyo makes the hours in IB in NYC look like nothing.
How was the infra PE scene there, if you don’t mind me asking?
If you don't speak Mandarin don't do it.
Mandarin isn’t even spoken in Hong Kong
most of the clients of big banks are mainland chinese
IB esp junior levels and mid levels is now filled with mainland Chinese speaking mandarin, most clients are also mainland Chinese
So wrong. Almost all of finance in HK is now focused on China, and that is an accelerating trend. While HK's main language is indeed Cantonese, that's not the point. For business, Mandarin is what is essential. Mandarin fluency is required for pretty much any client-facing finance job, and most of the groups are now being staffed by mainland Chinese people. HK people are being shoved aside in favor of mainlanders. 15 years ago things were different and the industry was more cosmopolitan, but now only mainlanders are desired. Situation is worse for expats than for HK people, since all HK people have reading & writing fluency in Chinese (essentially same written language except with traditional v. simplified characters), and most HK young professional people have at least a decent working level of Mandarin. So OP's question is legit. For day-to-day life you can get around perfectly with English in HK. But for long-term career prospects Mandarin fluency is essential, and actually BEING Chinese is likely also essential, language aside.
Context: I'm 15 years in this mkt, speak Mandarin, and have felt no compunction to learn Cantonese. I'm better off investing that time to go even further in Mandarin.
Can someone give a rough range for rental in HK, be it a 1BR or flatshare? Obviously not gonna live in Central but somewhere with an easy commute.
Highly variable. Given long hours, probably best to not be "too far away" which is a very relative term when in HK. Almost laughably so. That said, a half decent studio/1BR will be at least $2k/2.5k and will be a shoebox and often a poor quality one, and I'm really lowballing it for areas in which most financial people live. One thing though, you can claim housing allowance for US taxes as well. So in addition to the first $120k that Uncle Sam doesn't tax you on, you can also claim upto like $100k in housing or something (this various by country so best to check).
Depends where. HK is expensive, but cheaper than NY/SF. Buuuuuttt.... places are way smaller than you'd get in USA. Eg. I rent a 450 sqf 2BR apartment (small rooms, decent living room, North Point) for HK$15k/mo, US$2k/mo. Older flat but perfectly good to live in. Aside, I also own and rent out a studio in Yau Ma Tei (in Kowloon) for HK$13k/mo, at 350sqft but it has a big 250 sqft patio, which we turned into an outside room. If you're renting in mid-levels, Central, or somewhere else trendy, you can expect to pay muc more.
If you're looking for a decent deal, leave the city center and take MTR to work, given how fast and efficient it is. Find a neighborhood you like, find a few of the local agents, and have them source a local flat for you. Do NOT go with some foreigner-focused service apartment. Move out along the blue MTR line (Island Line) and go East to North Point or beyond to find decent deals, or go west, or otherwise go on the red line to Kowloon.If you're working in Central that commute doesn't matter much, given how fast the subway lines are, so long as you don't have to change lines. I live in North Point and work in Central. Door-to-door commute is 15-20 minutes (haven't timed it).
EY people care to chime in?
I’m an American in Hong Kong at a BB and have been here for 8+ years now.
If you are a single guy in your early to mid 20s there is zero reason for you not to do this, especially if you have never lived in Asia before. Some posters above have mentioned that the work is less “technical” and you will not learn as much but these are all things I personally would not worry about. The gain you will get from living and working in a foreign country will far outweigh any perceived or potential professional shortcomings.
All the things travel, night life things below are pre-covid, but even then the city generally has done okay in 2020 but bars and restaurants (takeaway post 6pm) are currently closed at 6pm every day.
Social scene and night life
The city is full of expats from all around world including EU, UK, Aus/NZ, and Asia and so anyone with even little bit of outgoing personality will easily create a circle of friends to continually hang out with. You can also meet locals HKers as well to diversify social circle, obviously a bit harder but definitely doable as I have a good mix of both expats and locals (who speak EN, as I don’t speak Canto). The girls here are pretty hot as well with a good mix of both western Caucasian and Asian girls. Asian girls tend to really like western guys (I’m obviously generalising) as I’ve seen some ugly ass white dudes with some smoke show Asian girls. The weather is great from Oct to to Mar but is hot and super humid in summers but it’s fine as you spend your weekdays in the office. Hiring a junks a big thing here to over summer as well where you and a group of friends hire a boat and cruise around the coast drinking and eating all day, it’s fantastic way to spend a Saturday day drinking and getting effed up with friends.
Travel
Pre-covid. I can’t stress this enough with how fantastic it is to live in HK for travelling. You have easy access to Mainland China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and all of South East Asia including Singapore, Philippines, Thailand (Bangkok is pure debauchery), Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia and I honestly can’t list all the countries around you have easy and cheap flights to. I’ve literally spent a Thur and a Fri hiking 13k foot mountain in Taiwan and then flew right to Philippines and spent my sat and sun surfing on some of the most amazing beaches in the world. Having easy access to these countries, on the cheap, and the authentic cuisine is just too good to pass up. You also open up yourself so much personally by getting out of your comfort zone in the States and learning to be uncomfortable in a foreign setting.
Professional (all this pertains to my experience at a BB)
I will admit that the hours in Hong Kong suck. Face time is a big issue here and is especially bad at the junior levels. Normal hours for most analyst and associates are 85 to 90 hours a week. There is a ton, I mean a TON of marketing and pitching and I think this is an endemic problem across all BBs. In NY, MDs tend to know their clients very well, have fostered these relationships over the years and are almost friends with the management team and the deals are so much larger with huge fees that the business model supports the ability of MDs to function this way. In Asia, banks are constantly ambulance chasing so many clients and many MDs barely know anything about their clients and so you end up pitching a shit ton to like everyone. The good thing through is that deals tend to be smaller, deal teams tend to be smaller and so junior folks are less of a cog in the machine and will often talk directly with mgmt of clients during a trade. For example, when I was an associate I held weekly project mgmt calls with the head of M&A for a workstream my team was running because my MD was too busy with other stuff and he only joined the call when we really needed his expertise. Also as a junior you end up doing a lot of business travel as many clients often like to a junior staff seconded on site so that’s also a nice little perk which you don’t see in NY.
COL
As others have already opined, flats in HK are tiny and overpriced. But you learn to live with it as you end up enjoying the experience of being out and about in either HK or another country. Western food is expensive as hell and cost 1.25x more in HK than you would spend in NY but if you go local (noodles and shit) you can end up saving a ton of money. In regards to taxes income taxes maxes at a MTR of 17% and capped at 15%, but as an American with worldwide taxes you will still pay federal taxes but as someone mentioned already, the first US$100k is tax free and the taxes you already paid to HK can also be deducted. So net net you will end up still paying less taxes than if you were in the states. I think my MTR was like 28% last year (vs 45% in States being in NYC).
In all, I highly recommend you take the plunge especially if your bank will support the move. The regional is highly dynamic with China still growing very quickly and countries like Vietnam, Thailand, and Indonesia continuing to drive growth in SEA.
Feel free to DM if you want to chat more about it, as you can tell I feel super passionate about this and I have grown tremendously both professionally and personally over past 8+ years of being here.
Do you speak Mandarin?
I do not. I'm not in coverage though where it would be imperative to have mandarin as a language skill set.
Strong username-to-post ratio
Are you sure it's not because white guys can't tell ugly Asian girls part from the pretty ones and think all Asians look the same?
lmao this^^
WanderingWanchai is spot on. If given this opportunity, there's zero reason not to take it. HK is a great city. From a career progression the lack of Mandarin fluency is going to be a detriment. But in the short-run, for a good stint at seeing an exciting part of the world... why wouldn't you do it?
Do you know about private equity? Is mandarin needed there too?
mostly yes
May I PM you?
yup feel free
FILTH, as it used be called back in the 80's.....Failed In London, Try Hong Kong :-). You may also want to look up the term LBFMs.....but probably not safe for work!
lmao i just read gs elevator's book and i remember that term
I've been working in Hong Kong with US BB for 10 years now. Offering my two cents here (wanderingwanchai has already touched some good points):
- If you are already analyst 2 in the US, you could try to ask for an accelerated promotion (subject to firm). Do you also have intention to stay in the same bank for associate and beyond?
- If you don't speak Mandarin, you are gonna hit a ceiling pretty quickly unless you work in a product group. It used to be the case when few local/Mandarin speaking people know really well on how to structure M&A or do acquisition financing, but over the years, the local talent pool in these product areas has grown tremendously and very competitively. Sooner or later you'll be facing a competition for VP/Director against a person who's equally skilled and knows the language and culture, and in particular when you are supposed to shoulder more responsibilities on client interaction and deal origination
- On average, many clients you will deal with aren't as sophisticated or professional as US/EU counterparts. So you may end up doing a lot of things that you don't think make much sense in a US context. That translates into all the differences you will experience in how pitch is done and how deals are executed. Well, that's just part of the cultural shock/difference anyways
- One really positive thing I wanna mention is that Hong Kong is not just about China - mainland. You will have exposure to other countries/markets in the region - Korea, Taiwan, South East Asia (a couple of different countries in that region), India/South Asia, and even Australia. The breadth of exposure is simply awesome (and in particular if you get to put on a business class flight (longer than 5 hours though) to visit these different countries. At the end of the day, Asia is very diversified, dynamic and arguably the fasted growing region globally, and it's certainly very exciting to be part of it.
- Hong Kong wise, it's a bit unfortunate in terms of the political situation and covid situation. It is what it is. For you, mostly things will be "as usual", as you are in the business of investment banking and making money. The city itself still very well managed, and has the strong backing (financially) from the mainland. With the US/China tension likely lingering around for the years to come, you'll continue to see a wave of existing US-listed Chinese companies coming back to list in Hong Kong, and many grown up Chinese companies raising financing or acquiring other businesses in Hong Kong/across the region.
Hope above helps.
These are some great additional points and colour DollarKeepsRaining mentioned above; especially in regards to promotions as I’m literally going through this now as a non-mandarin speaker.
Tossing it out there - seen some commenters talking about the fun things to do in HK "pre-protest". Let's not imply that the protestors are at fault for disrupting the day to day lives of expats. It's "pre-civil liberties crackdown".
Why do you get decide the national policies of other countries? If you're American, you should especially stfu about things such as civil liberties lol.
Are you a mainlander? If not, that's a classic Mainland talking point lol.
To answer your question, I'm a Hong Kong/USA dual citizen. Thanks for your concern!
Hi Xi!
stfu CCP shill bitch
But they are
Too soon to know what the effects are of the 'national security' law or protests will be. The protests had dampened the economy, but then COVID hit, so it's not like engines are running on full anyway. However there has been a steady expat exodus from here. My guess is most of us will go back home or go to SG.
I thought HKers would have learned something about CCP in the past one or two decades. It's just a dick size contest (that's the way politics works, isn't it?) and obviously HK has a much smaller one atm, with a lot of resources moving to BJ and SH.
If you don't have a very good level of any major Asian languages and culture, I have to advise not to work in finance in Hong Kong. You will have very limited career path and exits.
If OP is doing 1 or 2 year mobility rotation sponsored by his/her shop, there really isn't a reason to not go.
This
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