IB Associate Churn after 3yrs
As everyone know, several juniors have been leaving banking so this week I ran the numbers of how things look at my EB.
I'm an Associate class of 2018. I would be promoted to VP next year (if I stay, which is a big IF right now).
Please see below and comment if this looks normal across other banks, also would be great to know if this is more churn than expected due to COVID or if numbers are similar vs previous clases:
35 Associates joined full time in 2018
15 are still here (43%). Majority of the 15 are internationals (visa constraints?)
Of the 20 that are gone:
6 fired
6 Corporate exits (Big tech, startups)
4 MM/regional buyside
1 Bulge Bracket
1 entrepreneurship
1 rage quit without a job
Lol the only mba bankers nowadays I see staying are internationals with Visa issues too lol.
The fact that so many internationals at your bank survived the visa lottery is quite Interesting. Maybe you guys hired candidates only from countries that have some kind of a special immigration treaty with the US (e.g. Singapore)? In contrast, most of my bank's international associates were gone by the second year (~80%) after the lottery. (NYC BB M&A) I hear the lottery win rate is only 33%. In fact that is exactly what were seeing right now- the annual visa lottery was a few weeks ago and now we're seeing internationals packing their bags and sending good bye emails left and right. Same thing happens every year.
Are they transferred to another office?
No, I follow most of my associate class on Linkedin and according to their profiles none of them got relocated - whether it was involuntary or not idk. They now all work at different banks at their countries - mostly local banks, some boutiques, and 1 at another BB. Not an expert on this topic, but I hear from my 'international' colleagues that it's a common misconception that everyone at a large bank can get relocated, if they lose their lottery. The reality is that there are very few openings at regional offices (even at larger cities such as London) given their smaller sizes compared to NY and A2A culture being more common in most (if not all) other countries outside of the US
We've had 2-3 internationals each year so definitely not a big sample but none of them got relocated. (GS/MS/JPM FIG NYC)
I think that’s atypical and unlucky. MBA grads have a lot of tools at their disposal to get improved H1B chances. I had ~10 international people in my EB class, including myself, and another 5 from my B-School banking class and only 3 guys didn’t get H1B.
Lawyers will file for your pre-grad H1B as a US Graduate Degree holder if you’ve gotten enough credits to graduate before your last school term. That takes your H1B chances up to about 50% and with OPT, you get 1 more chance to apply at the same odds.
Then majority of MBA programs have also done STEM OPT since around the class of 2018 and banks have taken advantage (even if the definition of what jobs are qualified for STEM OPT is kind of a grey area) so you can even get up to 4 tries for H1B.
Is this any different for analysts who don't get the H1B visa?
Can you elaborate on why the 6 people were fired?
Different groups so don't have full visibility: 3 of them were fired just before COVID (last February). The other 3 after the summer.
It's always fit/performance or group specific dealflow.
Do you think the fire rate is because of the higher standards of EB or are new associates in BB also fired at such high rates?
So am I guessing they were causalities of the sometimes annual round of lay offs at some banks? I thought these were one-off firings since you started in 2018?
Bump
Damn, what happened to those 6 that got fired though? That's a fairly large number!
Fired or laid-off? Kinda a big difference there
Not really.
would I consider Oil and Gas desks Fired ... No. Laid off yes.
Judging by the # fired, I think i know where you work LOL.
Edit: Actually i think your class sizes are too big.
PWP or Lazard?
lazard
pwp mba class is like 10 probably
I was thinking EVR
I’m pretty sure we work in the same place. How do you classify the one from Real Estate? I wouldn’t call him MM/regional since it’s a big firm in NY
You are right! I didn't know the place but I just looked at it and does not seem to fit my previous categorization. Definitely an outlier and happy for him.
Where did the fired folks end up after?
Bump, curious on the firings
As an incoming MBA Associate, is there any specific advice you’d have?
As an aside, judging from the MBA Associate class of 2018 or 2019 I think 3-4 of the ~6 or so have left. Seems like your figures are about right
Have great attitude, treat analysts well, follow your MD/VP directions but ALWAYS ask smart questions. Learn as much Excel and PPT as possible.
Identify early the best people to work with so you do not get stuck in projects with awful people (my biggest mistake).
Thank you!
If I can press you for one more question — what was the key thing that you think got you to the likely VP promo (or at the very least successfully through the last 3 years)? Was it technical proficiency, getting good with the m&a process etc.?
"Identify the best people to work with." Everyone starting in banking should read this approximately 1,000x / day. Not uncommon for people to come into the "elite" world of IB and assume that every MD is just god-like. Trust me, they aren't. Varies with market conditions and by firm, but there are a lot of warm bodies out there. And it usually takes 2-3 years for leadership to catch on and get rid of them, but if you hitched your wagon to one of them early on, that's 2-3 years that you spent far less productively than you could have.
Slightly off-topic question, but does your firm do early promote to VP (if deserving obviously)?
Only for rock stars.
Not that I'm aware/haven't seen it.
Damn what EB is taking 35 per year? Evercore/Lazard I’m guessing? (I would think it can’t be PJT/MOCO/Gugg based on that size)
Evercore
~35 back in Class of 2018 (hired in 2017) checks out for Evercore given it's current ~40 ppl annual MBA hires. Retention seems reasonable given rate is even worse at larger banks...
So no MF PE or HF exits? Is this just MBA associates (you mentioned 35 joined FT in 2018, but were any of these lateral A2As from other banks)? What happened to the A2A internal promotes and their recruitment stats? Presumably this is across all various product groups correct? (M&A, RX, etc)
Curious as the numbers seem a bit bleak but perhaps this is the norm for MBA associate hires in IB.
Also curious on the a2a stats, if any stayed
Of the ~35 I believe 34 are post-MBAs. Does not include A2A who did not participate in FT Training with me that August 2018. I remember August 2018 fondly -- times were better in this great city of New York and I was just a simple post-MBA grad wanting to make money, pay down my debt and learn about M&A. Now life is difficult and I keep running excel scenarios and moving logos in my tiny Manhattan apartment.
Oh I just caught on to the fact that you're 3 years in and theoretically up for VP promo. 15/35 honestly isn't bad at all.
why arent your analysts the one doing the excel scenarios and logo movement?
Yes, also interested to know -- how many associates who started as analysts were fired as associates over the past year or so? Also, did you guys hire that many new associates bc so few analysts stayed on for a2a promotion?
Was curious about my class as well (also an EB, class size of ~20 - think there was one A2A who is one of the HFs below)
11 VP promotes
3 PE
2 HF
1 Corp Dev
1 Law
2 Quit/not sure
Don't have concrete back-up but the number of VP promotes feels higher vs. recent/prior classes
I assume this is EVR?
Anyways, what's the background of the other guy/gal who went to HF (other than A2A) - Top 2 MBA? (H/S) or top target undergrad? Pre-MBA buyside experience?
can more people add to this? it's absolutely impossible to ask these questions in recruiting and so people just end up joining and having no idea what % stays to VP and if not, where do they go lol (myself included)
From what I know, this is fairly typical churn, if not a bit higher than usual. A bunch of people from my M7 MBA class (2019) that went to banks cross the street have already moved on to different roles after the first real bonus, so OP’s numbers don’t shock me.
What type of roles did they move to? Corp dev?
I was told by one of BofA/Citi explicitly that they tracked it and over the past (3? 5?) years it was right around 25%
Can figure this out if combine LinkedIn searching and a bit of excel tracking.
I want to hear the story with the rage quit guy...
Yes pls
Cannot think of a worst position in finance than the post-MBA associate. Tough place to be
Well they are making shit more than the analysts underneath them even though they are dumber than them
..
Yes they're super dumb, they didn't know about IB when they were sophomores at 19/20 and so they had to get an MBA to break into IB, can you believe that?
Now add starting at home to that...
Haha... bunch of dif opinions on my original comment.
I meant it half as a joke. I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for anyone making 250-300k for sending out dial-ins and making sure working group lists are ordered in correct seniority.
It pays the bills. And by bills I mean the 200K investment in that MBA.
Following
DELETE
Bump
Curious about the 4 buyside exits. Were they the ones who did banking analyst before MBA? Rockstars in banking as MBA associates? Whats their story?
I am curious about the rage quit
Here are the stats for my bank for 2018 associate class
14 joined in 2018, very few had prior finance backgrounds
3 are still here, 2 at their original IBD groups and 1 moved to capital markets
3 went to Corp Dev (2 fortune 500 and 1 tech)
1 went to a secondary fund
1 pension fund, investing role
1 tech-focused PE
1 social/impact fund
1 went to join a startup
3 went back to their countries (no internationals remaining)
Im surprised that more don't go the capital markets route. Seems like a great place to be for a career banker.
Do you mind expanding on why you think it’s an ideal place to be a career banker?
Those all seem like solid positions/exits? Sure there aren't a ton of MF PE exits but other than the TBD internationals, those all look nice.
did the 3 internationals all leave by choice or because they didn't get the H1B lottery?
Seems associate level layoffs are much more common at EB/boutiques than BBs
Class of 2018 at BB (NYC joiners only):
38 joined and 20 remaining
6 corporate exits
3 to other IBs (both BB and EB)
3 to PE
1 to credit fund
2 back to home country
1 startup
2 unknown
Good to see a lot of fellow 2018 class here. Got me curious as well.
EB NYC. Don't know exactly how many joined in my class(2018), but tracked 20 of those that I remember
Out of 20, 5 are still here after 3 years
1 moved to BB (so only 30% still in banking)
8 corporate exits including 3 who were fired
1 commercial real estate
1 CFO at a startup
1 LMM PE
1 back to school (non-law, non-med)
2 got married (no profile updates but just baby pics - happily retired?)
BB SF west coast coverage, 7 associates joined in 2017
- 4 corporate development at tech/fintech
- 1 marketing / went back to pre-MBA industry
- 1 investor relations at a VC/GE fund
- 1 investor relations at a private debt /direct lending fund
- 0 in banking
At what level did you leave for Corp strat?
Roughly 2.5 years after I started full-time. Most of our class left in ASO2 or ASO3
BB SF west coast coverage = Morgan Stanley...right?
I find it absurd that you would willingly kick highly educated individuals from your country
Thanks for your comment. Us WSO posters from this country (i.e., those responsible for these laws) will huddle internally and revert with next steps.
Sorry I am conflicted then. Can we make 7:30 works for a subset of this group?
Thx
pls fix, thx.
everyone posting is extremely helpful keep em coming
I am an incoming analyst and an international as well. I will be joining a canadian bank(TD/RBC/CIBC). Does anyone have any insights if they relocate you if you don't get your h1b picked?
just go home
BB SF Tech 3rd year ASO here
- 6 joined
- 4 left before year 3 → Went to tech/pharma/healthcare firms in corp dev or strategy type of roles, all in Bay area
- I'm currently interviewing for M&A strategy role at a mid tech firm, so +1 pretty soon
Tbh only reason I stayed this long was to pay off student loans
Noticed there are a few people who are curious about comps for corp dev positions - pretty comparable to consulting or big law associates from what I saw. Plus stocks and all kinds of fringe benefits, and subtract 30 hours a week. This level of comp wouldn't have been achievable of course if I hadn't worked in banking and had my salary boosted - this becomes the benchmark salary for your next job.
What is comp like for f500 roles after an mba and 3 years as an associate?
Any details on this?
Is the one guy who will be left gunning for MD?
Honestly, I don't know. I've never come across someone (outside of an interview setting) at my office or at other banks around who talked about making MD or even D. I wonder if folks in NYC do. Sure, once you reach VP, the money becomes increasingly hard to walk away from. But I've also seen many VPs and Ds leave for F500 jobs, especially here in SF where there's no shortage of if not more opportunity outside of finance and you don't see so many people 'grinding'. So I'd say 50:50
Why not stay for VP?
Not quite there yet but I can tell you why I'm not going to stick around.
Because shit doesn't get any better after VP. My VPs and even Ds are grinding just as many hours as associates.
Because this life is not sustainable - all these hours and sleep deprivation is killing my body and making me suicidal.
Because I have zero time to meet friends and family.
Because I don't want to die young and alone with a six figure bank account that I never got to use .
Would like to hear from some more associate/VPs in NY and what their class is doing
Serious question... why don't more Associates stay for VP promotion? I understand stress doesn't go away, but hours get significantly better and comp gets pretty crazy right? My VPs and above at my previous firm were always out of the office by 5:30.
Do you work in Canada?
Curious as well. At what bank do anyone leave at 5:30 pm?
My VP grinds with me till 3am on live deals
Most VPs and Ds at my BB are always in the office until 11 pm-midnight unless they're out with MDs / clients
What do banks typically do when they lose a 2nd-3rd year associate? Do they hire experienced associates or just hire more 1st-years?
Depends on the group.
They try but its' really hard to get people at that level to move over.
I would assume they are really trying to thread the needle to find the right experienced associate.
That being said, it would probably be favorable to candidates? Maybe this is ignorant thinking, but as an associate looking to leave into corp dev or something, you should likely move to a more high level bank as your "last stop" which could open up some new doors?
Or are people at that level/age more set in their ways and not looking to uproot life for another year or two at a different shop?
The short version is I chose my place explicitly as one where I could see myself longer term, but if I wanted to leave I think the exits at the associate level are not as good as other options I had.
We usually have to hire more 1st years. Others are right, finding experienced, strong associates isn't easy. That's part of the reason the recruiters are so aggressive and ping every junior banker in the bank trying to find someone willing to make the jump.
c
I once saw an associate cough and spit out blood one day at work. She later found out that she had stomach ulcer. She said she had never been that sick in her life and she quit after only 11 months on the job.
International MBA applicant here from Canada- I am curious whether BB's hire post MBA associates as a As2/As3 if the candidate worked in a BB as AN/As1 in a foreign office prior to attending top7 biz school. Do you know if BBs sponsor MBA tuition for top bucket analysts/associates anymore?
if you’re coming out an MBA program you start at the same level as everyone else, regardless if you had prior banking experience.
Dicta quis vel sed aliquam fugiat dolor accusamus illum. Omnis sit ex recusandae vel amet. Occaecati provident magni numquam sunt aut aut autem praesentium.
Eius delectus et aspernatur harum. Provident aut molestiae sint fuga enim suscipit. Sit explicabo sed in esse voluptatem illum. Aut voluptatem dolor doloribus suscipit nostrum modi totam.
Labore magni non exercitationem maiores praesentium. Debitis qui repudiandae quas. Et rerum recusandae est tempora nobis nihil sed. Expedita eos odio delectus suscipit eius quis natus necessitatibus. Delectus nesciunt dolore cum sint sit quaerat eum. Inventore enim qui cum eligendi dolorum.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Deleniti voluptatum adipisci ut est minima et aut aut. Similique voluptas minus aut porro. Tempore et reprehenderit repellat minima. Molestias provident quas aperiam mollitia debitis aspernatur.
Odio beatae rerum aperiam. Vitae molestias neque tempore magni. Fugit autem eos tempore at. Saepe illum repellat qui dignissimos consequatur sit quos corporis. Dolorem distinctio voluptas quia aliquam praesentium quam.
Est quo odio quam voluptate voluptatem. Ut perspiciatis modi dolorum dolores aut. Praesentium quia ad ullam magni consequuntur dignissimos.
Voluptas quo nostrum exercitationem incidunt rem. Accusamus non unde quae ullam earum eum et sint. Iste asperiores ut voluptatem distinctio cumque dolore rerum. Quo voluptatem atque ipsa culpa eos deleniti. Facere officiis porro officia illo laborum laborum.
Nemo voluptatem enim exercitationem ad unde sed. Libero amet illo impedit ratione dignissimos enim. Et consequatur architecto quia aperiam ut dolorem aperiam. Et architecto omnis harum.
Molestiae dolor iusto voluptatem officiis maiores et maiores earum. Neque magnam consequuntur hic cum maxime id. Eveniet aperiam eaque et aut assumenda. Neque repellendus dolorem aliquid facere qui rem.
Similique omnis error explicabo laborum. Pariatur quia praesentium accusantium cupiditate officia eveniet et. Ad quo excepturi eligendi qui accusantium aspernatur.
Laudantium sequi natus culpa et reprehenderit rerum aut. Autem nobis eligendi pariatur enim temporibus in. Veritatis consequatur sint enim et ut. Sed odit recusandae necessitatibus repellat architecto minima earum. Autem aut sint quia numquam.
Eaque est vel nobis corporis nemo. Pariatur dolor nam rerum accusantium aut ipsam.
Nemo qui et unde voluptatem est et soluta. Odio totam est ut omnis.
Temporibus soluta voluptatum enim consequatur. Nihil qui quam eaque amet dolorem ipsum dolores. Qui et id labore. Autem et voluptate ipsum aperiam quis rerum. Reiciendis quo distinctio quas aut autem incidunt suscipit. Non ut quae rerum eaque voluptates aut.
Reiciendis non perferendis deserunt reiciendis. Veniam recusandae est nihil quia. Minima corrupti facilis in nemo. Inventore voluptatem ipsum a ratione sapiente exercitationem rerum. Repellat delectus ut quisquam ducimus delectus nostrum.
Blanditiis est exercitationem provident eius. Explicabo sit velit repudiandae. Ad aut recusandae ut autem commodi et culpa. Dolorum aliquam amet voluptatum voluptates facilis blanditiis.
Quibusdam necessitatibus voluptatem sint dolores voluptatem. Quia hic ut cupiditate dolores tenetur suscipit. Sed autem deserunt qui recusandae blanditiis. Ipsum nam molestiae dolor iure.