Internships in Freshman Year
I know this topic is discussed frequently. But the questions I'm about to pose were never answered when I did my research.
A bit of background: I'm about to start college at a semi target school and I would like to work at an investment banking firm in a FO role.
In order to be competitive for future jobs, I want to ask about freshman summer (before soph. year) internship opportunities.
I've been looking on LinkedIn and realized that some people do freshman year internships at f500 companies (corp finance) and PWM at certain firms.
My questions:
1) How do I go about finding freshman year internships at a f500 company or a PWM role? I will not have any grades in recruiting season (which is the fall semester I believe...correct me if I'm wrong). So what must I do to stand out?
2) Also, is cold calling firms the best way to go about getting an internship as a freshman?
3) Since many of you guys are more knowledgeable about the finance industry, which BB firms allow freshman students to intern in the PWM role? I know Barclays Wealth does not (according to their website).
4) If not a PWM/F500 internship, what kind of work experience should I be getting during the summer? Any ideas?
Thanks!
Freshman mostly intern at F500 companies and PWM roles.
They do? What F500 companies hire freshman? Most don't even consider sophomores...
I'm doing MM ER right now for my Freshman summer.
yeah I'm interning at a boutique ER firm or my Freshman summer as well. I know a lot of people doing PWM at places like Merrill Lynch branches in their home towns. Try to use family connections if you have any. Worst cast just cold email/call a lot of pwm branches...someone will get back to you
To answer your questions:
1) Cold-call where you can, but your university should have tons of resources for you in their Career Services dept. or whatever.
2) Depends on where you call. But generally, yes. Cold-calling can be very effective if you do it right. Out of all the internships and jobs I've had (3 internships in college, 2 full-time positions post college) only 1 was through HR. The rest were results of cold-calling.
3) Merrill Lynch does unpaid internships in PWM. Not sure about who else but I'm assuming all the big guys do.
4) If you want to work in investment banking, the best (and more obtainable) experience you could possibly get would be to intern at a boutique shop, where you could get exposure to the entire deal process. That kind of experience is invaluable for people wanting to enter the industry.
My personal advice:
Don't do PWM if you want to work in investment banking. Call up some local boutique banks and see if they'd be willing to let you do an internship (most likely unpaid). Smaller guys are more open to that sort of thing and managing directors are easy to get a hold of. Just cold-call, be respectful, and tell them that you are are a freshman at so-and-so school and are interested in a career in investment banking. Do a little research on the shop and tell them why you are interested in learning more about what they do there. If you catch them on a good day, you might get lucky.
Also, whenever you are told "No" to the internship question, make sure to ask them if they have any advice for you or would be willing to schedule a time where you could ask them about the business and/or general career questions. Surprisingly, lots of guys are willing to do that.
I got my start by cold-calling. It ain't fun, but if you do it right it can be an extremely effective networking tool. I still make cold-calls every day when I'm searching for deals, so it's important to start doing it as soon as possible and getting comfortable talking to complete strangers. Don't get discouraged when people hang up on you or are rude. Just X them off the list and call the next one.
Keep in mind that my school isn't exactly Harvard or Wharton.. It is a solid semi target.
I'm not sure about the internship process at local boutiqes. Haha, I'm not even a college student yet.
In your experience, are local boutiques open to students at semi targets? Do you think I should start contacting such firms a few weeks into my college career?
Lastly, isn't PWM experience > no experience at all during freshman year? I would rather do something than nothing in my summer.... But if PWM will be a hindrance to my IB chances, then I would rather do nothing.
I'll concede that most people do PWM during freshman year, not F500 internships.
However, some companies on the lower end (ie: F400-F500) did hire some kids from my college for freshman year internships.
I go to a Non-Target and got a 2.0 1st semester my freshman year. There are two interns working for the analyst I'm with - myself, and a guy who just got his MSF from Olin. It's not impossible brah, do a lot of self study outside the classroom and make yourself valuable.
StryfeDSP,I'm guessing you've networked extensively during your freshman year in order to receive an internship at an MM firm.
May you talk a bit more on your networking experiences (when you started networking, etc)?
GE does and giving MS for your lack of knowledge won't help.
GE does? One company out of five hundred?
Of course there is a select few, but "freshman mostly intern at f500 companies" is an inaccurate statement and deserve MS.
I didn't really start networking until late March-early April. I literally just scoured my alumni database for names around the Midwest city I live in (not Chicago), and cold emailed asking to chat on the phone. I had a small BO internship my freshman winter break, so I leveraged my experience doing that along with A LOT of outside reading and made the guys I spoke with know that I knew what I was talking about.
I connected with one alum who was an Analyst at a MM bank and he agreed to interview me. It was almost entirely fit and I aced it and landed the position.
Also, how effective is applying online for internships at F500 companies? Is the online application a bunch of BS or is it of use?
Like beny23 mentioned, General Electric does offer internships for freshman (according to the website, they didn't mention that a prospective intern must be a soph/junior..So I'm guessing he's right). They recruit on campus, but I'm not entirely sure if my college is on their recruiting radar, leaving me with the online application.
Forgive me for asking a bunch of questions. I'm new to all of this!
Little background on me: I go to what I believe to be a semi-target and am currently in my freshman year internship with a medium sized hedge fund. I am not sure whether I want to do IBD post ugrad, but it's not because of work-life balance issues etc.
1) Show a lot of interest to recruiters. I came into college from an academic background (Math/Physics, published in a RSC journal) without much background. I interviewed with the shop after the big rush since none of the large firms look at freshmen. Basically you can't compete on traditional grounds so don't try to. I met my current boss at a finance competition where he judged one of my stock picks. It ended up boiling down to him disagreeing with my thesis (name is one of the most publicized shorts right now after a stupid runup that I can't claim credit for predicting) but me being able to defend my viewpoint of the company. Found out over a friend that they were looking for SAs and shot him an email, he didn't even realized I was a freshman until he looked at my resume in the interview room (so much for those being read beforehand) Again, interest and a willingness to go above and beyond what everyone else is doing will help you, and remember that for a lot of roles you aren't being measured off of your fellow freshmen but off of juniors. It's hard but not impossible as long as you're fairly sociable and can convince people you're worth their time.
2) I actually had decent success over calling alumni. A lot of times the person I called wouldn't have anything open but they'd refer me onwards. One of your few assets as a semi-target student is the almost religious alumni base your school likely has. Be intellectually curious, hungrier than anyone else without coming off as trying too hard and don't forget that you know nothing (and work to fix that asap, you can never know enough)
3) I'm not familiar with BB recruiting for freshmen so the below is just very general advice off of friends experience (and knowing a UBS PWM higher up who told me to call him if I didn't find employment) Don't go through traditional means, and don't think you'll end up in NY. You can't compete on even footings so you'll have to move into the cracks between the beaten paths. When you get to college if you make friends through your interests there'll inevitably be some that have connections of their own that you can try to lever. Else good professors will oftentimes know a lot more people than you'd think. Again, you're looking for an untapped source of contacts if you can find it because that way you're not up against competition.
4) People might disagree with me on this one since I can't claim to have any differentiated insight into what you "should" be getting. If there's something you're interested in go do it. Don't look for an opportunity solely because it's what you're supposed to do. If I personally was a recruiter I wouldn't give a shit about what you did after your freshman year unless it was unusual because it was most likely a mommy/daddy deal where you got a title for helping with slightly more advanced household chores. To me that would suggest that anything that you enjoyed and can tell a great story about is a lot more valuable than simply generic financial experience. Again, I might be totally off here since I'm not on that side of the interview table.
Enjoy your summer between schools, my last summer was more fun than my current one (not that I don't love my work, but travelling to Europe beats these excel models any day) and just chill out. If it provides you some peace of mind, I know someone who jumped from a semi target to NY IBD at a BB (not GS/MS but not UBS either) without any previous formal internship experience. It seems to me, and I may well be wrong due to a sample selection bias, that if you're actually self motivated and hungry (and not just hopping on a bandwagon) you'll find a way in.
Wow! You are interning at a HF during your freshman year summer? That's impressive!
One thing still irks me though. If I'm cold calling/emailing firms during my freshman year, I really won't have a GPA or leadership experience to convince them to offer me an internship..This is especially true if I start cold calling in the first semester of the first year.
Judging from your experiences (and the experiences of your friends), how did they receive freshman year internships without the leverage of grades and leadership?
I really doubt I'll be receiving an HF internship during freshman year, so that's out of the question. I'm asking the questions in this post in regards to local boutique, pwm, f500 internships.
It's a lot less impressive once you take into account that it was 99.9% luck that I'm here and not in PWM. You can make your own luck to an extent, but anything above pwm will probably rely primarily on chance.
I've never been asked about my GPA ever during a cold call. Might also be due to the fact that I never cold called with the sole goal of getting a job but was mostly trying to figure out what I wanted to do with myself. If anything I was actually too hesitant to ask if they had any opportunities. Show your interest and ask them to talk about their jobs, their career path etc etc. Don't be that kid that only talks to people that can help him right then and there.
It all came down to a network in one form or another. Cold calls yielded some options for me since I had a teeny bit of a track record (not finance related though) that suggested that I was at least halfway intelligent but I would've probably gone to PWM before any of them. Got my current internship by putting myself out there and hopping on an opportunity when I saw it. I really didn't expect to get an interview or even an offer, it was more of a "I'll ask him about it as an excuse to stay in touch... oh, ok, guess I'll get some practical interviewing practice"
Most of my friends got it through referrals by previous interns, their high school network (you'd be surprised who all knows someone who works in finance) or their family etc. I didn't have the family network and my high school buddies all were going to work for their parents so the net open positions there were 0 as well.
Also, you can be involved and hold some leadership positions even during your freshman year if you can convince people you're intelligent. I also think you're under the impression that GPA matters a lot more than it does (GPAs don't get you jobs, they get you rejected)
I'd keep an open mind when meeting people and that's basically it. Don't get bogged down in any sort of herd think, since the well trodden paths simply aren't open to freshmen (or at least none that I found, I'm by no means claiming to know all of them)
My grades were never once brought up during any of my cold call conversations.
When you interviewed at the firm (after the cold call conversation), did they bring grades up?
If you started networking during March/April, surely you knew your GPA for the 1st semester and thus had to inform them after the cold calls?
No they never asked because A) my interviewer was the same guy I cold called, who ended up being the analyst I work for now, and B) because it was such a shitty GPA like I mentioned I didn't put it on my resume, and never brought it up. HR didn't care when I sent them my transcript either. They actually did call to ask about it, but the girl and I just kinda laughed about it when I told her it was correct.
GPA doesn't really matter if you're competent in the areas you need to be and the interviewer(s) like you.
That's not to say that GPA isn't important and you should shoot for a 3.5+ at all times.
As a freshman it's all about who you know and which alumni are willing to help you. Since you have no skills to bring to the table you have to depend on soft skills and network hard.
I can also attest to never being asked about grades during cold calling freshman year. As long as you can sound genuinely interested, reasonably intelligent, and have the conversation skills, the person will have a positive view of you.
Granted, I didn't start the process until my 2nd semester for the main reason of having a GPA first (as well as to let the upperclassman rush cool down). Also, as thepie had mentioned for himself, I wasn't necessarily trying to get a job offer out of the people I contacted. Usually when I had that mindset it ended poorly because I was trying to calculate my responses to what "should" be said or asked. Genuine responses fueled by genuine interests helped get my foot in the door at boutique IBs. I ended up not taking any of those offers though, and did a rotational F100 role instead because of the broad exposure.
I should note though, everybody probably approaches networking differently. I had a longer-term focus in mind, and wanted to hear about people's stories firsthand, and I spent more time into personalizing every approach (which in effect took more time, and therefore reached out to less people). Others will tell you to treat it as a numbers game and somebody will eventually respond positively. It's whatever floats your boat, I guess.
However, back on the topics of grades, you should still be striving to do your best, regardless of whether or not they ask. I had a high GPA, and it certainly did not hurt my case when they asked for a resume.
Totally agree with slyice above (StryfeDSP is giving you a lot of good info as well, his route just sounds very different from mine - seems like there's no magic formula after all) I'd also suggest that you check out what's out there before you decide that you know what you want to do for your Junior summer. I can totally understand the urge to plan as far ahead as possible, but I can tell you that it never works out as much as you think it will post-high school. Using myself as an example, I got into my current school more or less by accident and found that I absolutely loved it. Never let myself consider business/finance in high school since I told myself it was too soft.
If you have a real interest in finance it should be fairly apparent why you'd cold-call people for reasons other than getting a job. IB isn't the end-all be all of finance (the buyside isn't either, it's more of a continuum) and even if it were I don't understand why you wouldn't want to talk to as many people as possible about their personal story. As a non-target (and yes, semi-target is in the end another way of saying non-target), you're already off the standard path so any advice you can get helps. As a freshman you're in a realm where the standard path doesn't even really exist and you generally have minimal knowledge of how the industry works. If you simply call and ask for opportunities (in my experience) most people will dismiss you immediately and won't consider talking to you even for a story run down.
The way I see it (and again, I'm on the wrong end of the interview table to give real inside info here) during your first semester you have nothing to offer other than curiosity and an interesting conversation. Asking for a job is neither truly curious nor interesting. If you don't have anything after the bulk of recruiting is done (note that I got my internship after the big rush as well) you should have a GPA and can try networking again.
If you're thinking about how to navigate the waters outside of the normal path, try to put yourself in the cold-called persons position. Do you honestly believe they care about a freshman calling for a job? Me neither. Do you think they love talking about themselves and offering as much advice as possible? Oh yeah, yeah they do. Do you think you'll have a better shot at getting a job if they like you? ...
Again, just my 0.02
So when I cold call during my first semester, I should ask about the banker's experiences and opinions on the industry. But cold calls aren't meant to be long (or maybe I'm wrong), that's why I'm wondering.
After getting to know them a little better, should I then use it to my advantage and ask for an internship during the same call or the next semester?
Why do you consider semi target to be the same as non target? Don't you think there is a huge difference when finance graduates start with a $60K base at a semi target (w/out signing bonus and end-year bonus), and a non-target with a $45K base?
I don't think you understand the definition of "target" and "non-target". Target just means they are schools that the majority of BB banks recruit at - these are mostly Ivy League and other top tier schools. Semi-targets are schools that only a selection of BBs recruit at, and are more "target" schools for top regional boutique/MM firms. Non-targets are everything else.
Personally, I don't really see a difference between semi-target and non-target. I would categorize my school (Large university) as a non-target, but we're a target for a very large bank here in the midwest and a F50 company. The word semi-target reminds me of the word "public ivy" in the way that you go to a pretty good school, but you're JUST NOT an ivy league or universal top target, but you still need a way to convey the prestige of your school. I remember when I was dating my ex-girlfriend back in high school and she told me she was applying to the College of William and Mary. My first question was "what the fuck is the college of william and mary?" and she said it was a "public ivy". I really pissed her off with how much I laughed at that. Not to take away from how good any of the public ivy schools are, I just think the term is stupid.
But anyway, it really has nothing to do with starting salaries for entry level finance positions. A very slim margin of finance graduates, even from targets, are going to be making 60k starting salary their first year out. The number only goes down as you lose prestige with each school. Your average finance student would jump with joy if they all found out they had 45k jobs lined up for when they graduated.
As far as cold calls go, I really avoid the cold call route and stick to cold emails. Just say that you're interested in learning more about the [investment banking/sales & trading/equity research/etc] industry, and that you were hoping to schedule a time where you might be able to have 15 minutes of his time to hear about his experiences. When you do get on the phone with them just be personable, and the call will last as long as he wants. You can usually gauge how successful the call was from how long the call was. I remember for one of my cold calls the guy specifically stated at the start of the call he only had 10 minutes, but we chatted for 45 about biking. He's one of my top leads for a position for next summer.
So the process you suggest:
Step 1: Cold email, provide contact info, ask for a short conversation about the industry
2: Assuming they respond, we talk about the industry
I'm not sure if the next step makes sense:
3: Contact them later on, asking for a position in the summer
If any of the steps are wrong, please correct me.
I'm going to digress a bit to talk about extracurricular activities. Model United Nations is a passion and I enjoyed this activity A LOT in high school. Will it be "fluff" on an Ibanking resume? I can twist MUN to be business related, but is that really necessary? Furthermore, I'm planning on joining my school's investment club this year which I'm sure is a great idea.
I know I'm being paranoid about all this, but if you were in my place, you'd understand. My family is full of medical doctors (parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins...all of them) who are criticizing me for choosing finance as a career. I'm trying to be extra careful so as not to be embarrassed or mocked for being a failure every single day until I die.
Your email should provide a brief description of who you are and what you want from them. Keep it succinct, no need to go in all-out detail about what your past experience is like or why you're interested in the field, just let them know why you want to talk to them.
There's also no formula to networking, bud. Those steps you have are a great basic guideline to follow, but networking's an art, not a science. Therefore, it should come naturally to you and you should just "go with the flow" or so people say. And to be honest, I wouldn't just jump straight into asking for an internship in the second email to the person... Let's say you contact someone now and you talk with them over the phone... maybe in like October/November I would update them on my progress or talk with them about some new thing I learned, repeat that in a few months, and maybe around February/March I would ask about summer internships.
Explain how you are planning to twist MUN.
I suggest that you just pick up a bunch of finance and investing books from your library and read as much as you can. Then when you get on the phone with the guys you can sound knowledgeable... to a lot of people that's very impressive for a college freshman/sophomore.
The goal is to make a contact in the industry - not say the right combination of words to them as if they were a girl you're trying to fuck. Ask about their career, their thoughts on the industry, what made them interested in finance, any advice they have for you, etc. Form a relationship with them, and the more they learn about your situation, your character, etc the more willing they'll be to just be upfront about what they can do for you.
Remember, in the short run they can get you an interview, or even just offer you a position. In the long run they can introduce you to their industry contacts, provide career insight, and even help you land clients, but that's only if you maintain a positive relationship and don't just stop talking to them as soon as they you get what you want out of them.
Let's be real here, when they see your e-mail they KNOW why you're talking to them. They KNOW you want an internship, or at least some help, but you need to prove that you're not just slumming around for any guy who will give you the time of day.
I wouldn't twist your Model UN stuff. Finance guys like seeing you have a life outside of finance. It wouldn't just be fluff.
Everything is making more sense now.
But what about LinkedIn? Do you guys think LinkedIn is an effective networking medium? Or do individuals on that site generally refuse to reply to messages sent to them, thus making cold emailing the firm itself more effective?
I'm deciding whether I should use LinkedIn as a tool when I create my profile.
For what it's worth, I landed my current internship with a contact I first emailed over LinkedIn.
For whatever reason, my university's career center is pretty shitty and they don't have a good list of alum working in the field. So, what I like to do is use Linkedin. I use the website's search function and look up alum from my school working in investment banking or financial services. Then, since technically you're not allowed to view someone's profile or message them (for free) unless you're in their network, I copy and paste their header information along with the school on Google and in Google Incognito and I can see their public profile (with their full name) for free. Then I just copy and paste their name into Google to find out their email address, and I contact them through there.
Honestly just make sure you get something that shows you're productive, and having it be in finance is really just a plus. I know guys who interned at non-profits after their freshman year who then intern at BB's after their Sophomore year.
I'm sure an alum is more likely to respond, but what is the chance of a non-alum replying to me via LinkedIn/cold email? Did any of you guys try that?
And I asked this question before, but it is more for my curiosity. Is applying online on the careers page of a firm useful, or just rubbish?
I can't speak from experience on cold emailing non-alums, but before you start hitting those guys up you should exhaust your alumni network. Unless you can find something in common with the person you're trying to contact you're going to be at the low end of their totem pole in terms of students they want to help out.
Online resume submissions work, but its mostly up to luck. A lot of people refer to them as "black holes". Your odds of getting your resume at least glanced at shoot up dramatically if you can just find someone in the firm to make contact with who could possibly push your resume through.
If that non-alum has something in common with you, it's more likely that they respond. For instance (just throwing some things out there), find someone who may work at the same non-profit as you if you do any charity work, somebody who may be part of the same fraternity if you're part of one, or somebody who might go to a similar caliber school in the same region. Of course with alumni you don't have to search for something in common because you guys already share a big common experience (college).
As for applying online, I never got anything from that. Not even any responses from an HR person because those online apps generally tend to be for juniors. They'll also have resume filters that may auto-ding you for not having the desired grad date. But if you're just trying to apply to as many positions as possible, it can't hurt to fill out the stupid apps. However, it may work better for smaller places, but I would still say that getting in contact with people personally worked best.
Also, don't necessarily disregard OCR if you're at a semi-target. I had one offer (non-IB, but finance) that came through connecting with a recruiter at a career fair. But again, these postings/fairs tend to be geared towards juniors or at least sophomores, so don't expect a lot of offers to come out of that.
I actually approach both with the same mindset, although I wouldn't advise doing that if your approach is to find a magic word combination to the inside of their pants lol
I use the same approach as well, it's just important to spell it out for people new to networking.
I have yet to fully understand the "don't work in PWM if you want to work in IBD"; but, I will recommend that you intern at PWM as your last resort. Try getting into a IB boutique somewhere.
Look into banks in the city where you'd like to spend your summer. Back in your hometown or the same city as your university if you'd prefer to work there. Name brand won't matter very much as a freshman (but obviously scoring a brand would be a plus).
Getting familiar with the industry is going to be incredibly valuable for interviews later on down the road. Be willing to work for free.
PWM is a common freshman year gig because you are not required to have any real knowledge/experience.
I really did not have many options for my freshman summer, so I was fortunate. That being said, it is very common and really is only as valuable as you make it (do you hustle and network for a sophomore summer/make contacts/have a good attitude?). Reach out to local pension funds/ER shops/start ups and offer part time unpaid -- it will make all the difference when you interview and are not one of the million kids doing ML regional PWM. Additionally, if you must do PWM, ask off the bat if you are leading a cold calling effort.... I have had friends who literally were calling 9-5 for 10 weeks. You would be better off networking and at least enjoying your last summer before entering the rat race.
Most kids have their parents ask their FAs if they can come in a few times a week, or reach out to alums. Play the name game here, even though you go to a solid school, you will have zero experience, and really cannot provide any exceptional value.
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