Is it possible to move from a back office to a front office eventually?

Rank: Chimp | 9

Hello! I am just going to join an IB, completely new to the industry. Is it alright for me to aspire to be on the front desk role someday? I still haven't done my MBA but I do plan to do it some day. Also, my GPA is around 3.52/4. Need any opinions/ experiences on this subject. Thank you in advance :D

Comments (137)

 
6/12/17

Anything is possible, but I would suggest learning how to turn off caps lock first.

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6/12/17

Oh that was just the urgency in my voice that I wanted to convey.

 
6/12/17

Unfortunately, it makes you look like one of the resident trolls who REALLY LOVE CAPITALIZATION. To actually answer your question, breaking into IB is super doable with a good MBA irregardless of your prior work experience.

 
6/13/17
"Pwn3r" wrote:

Unfortunately, it makes you look like one of the resident trolls who REALLY LOVE CAPITALIZATION. To actually answer your question, breaking into IB is super doable with a good MBA irregardless of your prior work experience.

Seriously, my strongest prediction for a troll account is ALL CAPS.

 
6/13/17

IT HAS BECOME A REAL PROBLEM.

 
6/13/17
 
6/12/17

Couldn't have searched for this? Pretty sure there's a new post every other day that covers this very subject.

Cheer up, Bateman. What's the matter? No shiatsu this morning?

 
 
6/13/17

So you didn't get the offer from the Back Office and you are giving advice? LMFAO

 
6/13/17
BankingOrBust wrote:

So you didn't get the offer from the Back Office and you are giving advice? LMFAO

He's learned from his mistakes and his telling others about how to not make these same mistakes. How is that bad?

 
6/13/17
mlg321 wrote:
BankingOrBust wrote:

So you didn't get the offer from the Back Office and you are giving advice? LMFAO

Isn't he a she? I agree, just because she did not get the position does not means her advice is not valuable. After all, you learn from mistakes.

He's learned from his mistakes and his telling others about how to not make these same mistakes. How is that bad?

 
6/13/17
andres17 wrote:
mlg321 wrote:
BankingOrBust wrote:

So you didn't get the offer from the Back Office and you are giving advice? LMFAO

Isn't he a she? I agree, just because she did not get the position does not means her advice is not valuable. After all, you learn from mistakes.

He's learned from his mistakes and his telling others about how to not make these same mistakes. How is that bad?

 
6/13/17
seville wrote:
andres17 wrote:
mlg321 wrote:
BankingOrBust wrote:

So you didn't get the offer from the Back Office and you are giving advice? LMFAO

Isn't he a she? I agree, just because she did not get the position does not means her advice is not valuable. After all, you learn from mistakes.

He's learned from his mistakes and his telling others about how to not make these same mistakes. How is that bad?

 
6/13/17
BankingOrBust wrote:
seville wrote:
andres17 wrote:
mlg321 wrote:
BankingOrBust wrote:

So you didn't get the offer from the Back Office and you are giving advice? LMFAO

Isn't he a she? I agree, just because she did not get the position does not means her advice is not valuable. After all, you learn from mistakes.

He's learned from his mistakes and his telling others about how to not make these same mistakes. How is that bad?

He, she, I'm confused :o

 
6/13/17

So while being ambitious is a highly sought after trait on the street, over ambition can sometimes lead to your downfall. That same "over ambition" helped me overcome this setback and secure an offer at a HF right out of College.

~~ Fortune favours the brave ~~

My WSO Blog

 
6/13/17
LaFemmeFinancier wrote:

FYI - Your name is misspelled.

 
6/13/17
Nouveau Richie wrote:
LaFemmeFinancier wrote:

FYI - Your name is misspelled.

how?

WSO's COO (Chief Operating Orangutan) | My story | My Linkedin

 
6/13/17
AndyLouis wrote:
Nouveau Richie wrote:
LaFemmeFinancier wrote:

FYI - Your name is misspelled.

how?

Should be "LaFemmeFinanciere." Accent isn't a big deal since this is an English language site, but the "e" at the end makes a pretty big difference.

Right now her name means: "The Female Man Who Does Finance"
Changing it as I noted changes it to: "The Female Woman Who Does Finance"

Currently your blogger is writing from the perspective of a tranny.

Edit: Also, should note the fact that the name itself is entirely redundant as gender is inherently built into descriptive titles.

 
6/13/17

Madam, I've warned you before, the bankerella approach is not quite working. She was a legend and you, I suggest to find your own identity here. just some kind note. Nice effort anyway.

I'm feeling like a star, you can't stop my shine---Ridin' Solo

 
6/13/17

Nothing wrong with artistic expression from a tranny! I'll take the work of Lana Wachowski over Michael Bay any day of the week...I'm getting giddy just imagining how awesome Jupiter Ascending will undoubtedly be.

 
6/12/17

Don't mean to sound harsh but this is the question weaklings ask for assurance that everything will work out because they don't understand how the world works. Like the millions of responses to this question before me; yes, it is possible. However, it is EXTREMELY unlikely, and the way to do so is very difficult and wrapped in luck.

 
 
6/13/17

That seems like a fairly short-sighted and knee-jerk reaction to the situation, so yeah, that's probably exactly what will happen.

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.

 
6/13/17

Sure there's plenty of exceptions, but very uncommon. BO doesn't really have any transferable skill sets, and if was reviewing laterals would take a 2nd year Big 4 acountant anyday over an internal BO.

Ace all your PE interview questions with the WSO Private Equity Prep Pack: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/guide/private-equit...

 
6/13/17

OK not to be an asshole....

See myself, Monty, Bondarb, and half of the other traders on this board for BO to FO jump. This has been discussed ad nauseum.

See the last Rogue trader that came from ops, I believe most if not all of us made the jump after this.

 
6/13/17

There is lots of advantages to knowing firm policies and whatnot, not everyone is out to fraud the firm for billions. Also as arrogant the FO office to accept such a thing makes little sense, so your saying the BO office folks have a better understanding of firm policies and protocols than those who start in the FO?

 
6/13/17
marcellus_wallace wrote:

There is lots of advantages to knowing firm policies and whatnot, not everyone is out to fraud the firm for billions. Also as arrogant the FO office to accept such a thing makes little sense, so your saying the BO office folks have a better understanding of firm policies and protocols than those who start in the FO?

Not so much the policies and protocols, but the actual process of booking a trade, and the support systems that go with it. Someone who moves from Ops to Trading knows all the ins and outs of the trade booking process; he is also more likely to have a friend who would be willing to participate in a rogue trader situation.

looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
 
6/13/17

I disagree with your post. Think about it, if you doing something illegal and don't want to spend five to ten years in jail, wouldn't you use any and all measures to cover it up? That means you will spend time learning how the processes and operations work before executing your strategy. If I'm committing high profile fraud, you bet I would research and learn the ins and outs of all operational and accounting protocols before execution. Hell, I might know it before than BO's employees themselves.

 
6/13/17
sixrings wrote:

I disagree with your post. Think about it, if you doing something illegal and don't want to spend five to ten years in jail, wouldn't you use any and all measures to cover it up? That means you will spend time learning how the processes and operations work before executing your strategy. If I'm committing high profile fraud, you bet I would research and learn the ins and outs of all operational and accounting protocols before execution. Hell, I might know it before than BO's employees themselves.

This may be a knee jerk reaction but why not? It's not like FO is severely understaffed and can't find the talent, firms do like to employ from within but there could well be a legitimate regulatory issue here. And some regulator may spot the opportunity to get their face in the paper and jump at it.

It may be that I tend to see the good in people but I don't believe that people set out do to fraud, they don't wake up one day and think lets fraud this shit. To me it's a more gradual process, a trade goes down the pan, another goes, alarm bells start ringing and the trader looks for an out in the market, that fails...and if the trader isn't familiar with BO one would assume BO wouldn't be their first port of call for getting out of the mess they're in, eliminating the ability to cover up the previous losses within an adequate time frame to go undetected and accrue such large negative positions.

The new Chinese wall between BO and FO, coming to your firm summer 2013.

"After you work on Wall Street it's a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side." - David Tepper

 
6/13/17

There was an article about this in Business Insider. I think it's hard enough to go from BO to FO, so I don't believe this will make it that much more difficult. As some mentioned above, the "rogue" ScoGen trader was also a BO to FO guy, and that didn't seem to really kill off the move for those able to pull it off.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed."

Theodore Roosevelt

 
6/13/17
Something Creative wrote:

There was an article about this in Business Insider. I think it's hard enough to go from BO to FO, so I don't believe this will make it that much more difficult. As some mentioned above, the "rogue" ScoGen trader was also a BO to FO guy, and that didn't seem to really kill off the move for those able to pull it off.

I'm sure this has been previously mentioned, but didn't many European banks create a rule prohibiting the jump from bo to the actual desk you support as a result of the SocGen trader?
It wasn't an outright ban on moving from back office to front office, it just had to be a different desk.

 
6/13/17
reddog23 wrote:
Something Creative wrote:

There was an article about this in Business Insider. I think it's hard enough to go from BO to FO, so I don't believe this will make it that much more difficult. As some mentioned above, the "rogue" ScoGen trader was also a BO to FO guy, and that didn't seem to really kill off the move for those able to pull it off.

I'm sure this has been previously mentioned, but didn't many European banks create a rule prohibiting the jump from bo to the actual desk you support as a result of the SocGen trader?
It wasn't an outright ban on moving from back office to front office, it just had to be a different desk.

That I don't know for sure as I am US based. We do not have any restriction that I am aware of (other than a lot of FO simply not wanting to bring in a BO person to the FO). It wouldn't surprise me if the Euro banks did have something like this, but I don't see the point. It's about knowing the systems used so the specific desk shouldn't really matter.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed."

Theodore Roosevelt

 
6/13/17

It really doesn't matter whether you know the firm's processes or not. I could have booked a repo and wired myself a couple mil. at my old job, someone would have figured it out pretty quickly even if I paid off the couple people who checked that stuff.

 
6/13/17

if you haven't read the book Rogue Trader, go do so. it's pretty apparent that incompetency has to go quite a ways up the chain in order for something like this to happen.

 
6/13/17

i think i replied to this exact same post after the kerviel thing in 2007. no, this isnt the end of people from the back-office getting front-office jobs. i know i would hire a good back office person if he was hard working and smart and a job was available. so thats one.

It's actually a pretty funny way to deal with the problem, i can picture the meeting...."OK, in response to this embarassment we need to create an iron-clad trade support process that doesnt allow trading assistants to hide billion dollar trades for months.....hmmm...actually that sounds like it might take alot of work.....OK on second thought I guess we can just only hire people who are too dumb to understand the accounting systems! Ok that one is decided, now let's go get a drink." ...nice logic...only on wall st....

 
6/13/17

Your main worry is not BO rogue traders. Your main worry is that the FO will not be recruiting this year.

 
6/13/17
mxc wrote:

Your main worry is not BO rogue traders. Your main worry is that the FO will not be recruiting this year.

agreed!

 
6/12/17

I've encountered this question a lot. What's your astrological sign?

If you're an Aries you'll want to apply for a front office role in the Spring.
If you're a Capricorn you should wait until you have an MBA or Masters equivalent.
If you're a Sagittarius, you'll want to have your first born out of wedlock before applying.
Virgos should seek the help of a local shaman before trying to lateral.
If you're a Scorpio you're pretty much fucked and condemned to a life in the back office...

"A man can convince anyone he's somebody else, but never himself."

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6/12/17

If you're a Libra get fucked, you're barely data entry material

 
6/13/17

Recruit now and reneg if you get something better is your best bet.

 
6/13/17

I already signed the offer. I'm actually an engineering major (computer science) at an ivy, and for various reasons, it's really hard to get a job outside of IT in finance.
Is there anyway to transition?
Thanks!

 
6/13/17

Assuming its at a BB it will be very difficult to transition to FO but if you excel in your role and network internally which shouldn't be too difficult for you coming from an Ivy, I'm sure you'll make some progress.

Apart from that its just the typical cold email/call routine. Just be aggressive and be prepared.

 
6/13/17

It's 2nd/3rd tier actually...
How long should I plan to stay in IT as a business analyst before switching?
Thanks!

 
6/13/17

I understand that you signed the offer - you should keep recruiting. If you are at an ivy you definitely have a good shot at finding a new FO position before you start.

 
6/13/17

I was thinking of getting my "foot in the door" as a BA in BO. Or am I just being unrealistic?
The main problem is that all my internships were in pure software engineering.. it's hard to make a good case to recruiters in finance to hire me for FO positions.
What could I do after I start working next year?
Thanks for your input!!

 
6/13/17
"undefined" wrote:

I was thinking of getting my "foot in the door" as a BA in BO. Or am I just being unrealistic?The main problem is that all my internships were in pure software engineering.. it's hard to make a good case to recruiters in finance to hire me for FO positions.What could I do after I start working next year?Thanks for your input!!

I am just trying to tell you what would be easiest. The best thing you could do once you start working is to go back in time and try to recruit for a FO position now. If you are at an ivy with a STEM degree you stand a good chance. "Working your way up" rarely works, and you will get painted with the BO brush once you start, especially if you stay for 2+ years.

 
6/12/17

Yes but you won't because your secondary-male characteristics lead you into the BO Beta life to begin with.

 
 
6/13/17

Wait for a service request

If my office were any closer to the front, I'd be a doorman instead of a receptionist

 
6/13/17

But in all seriousness, cfa will help a lot. And keep an open mind when you're trying to break in. Don't limit yourself to "ib or bust".

If my office were any closer to the front, I'd be a doorman instead of a receptionist

 
6/13/17

Cfa will not help for IB FO. Maybe some sort of investment management role. Best advice is to go to bschool or network.

 
6/13/17

Yea, it only has value in investment management. And it'll be easier for you to get into an investing role if you try to get a job managing an insurance company's money.

If my office were any closer to the front, I'd be a doorman instead of a receptionist

 
6/12/17

Ya sure u can be front office receptionist at JT Marlin, bring in 80k/yr

What concert costs 45 cents? 50 Cent feat. Nickelback.

 
 
6/13/17

Still can't buy Cristal with Starwood points.

Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes.
 
6/13/17

1) You are familiar with the systems. You know the people in back office, which will facilitate communication. That's about it.
2) You'll be in a profit centre instead of cost centre. Higher pay, bonus potential etc.

Did you already get the offer to join a trading desk or are you applying internally and looking for answers to potential interview questions?

Good to see you are ambitious and you want to take your trading desk to the next level, but would tone that down a bit. You are not yet a rainmaker who will lift the overall performance ;-)

 
6/13/17

Hi Chewie,

Greatly appreciate your reply! Thank you for your suggestion. Yes, I will tone down going forward... Just wanted to show my ambition to reward an employer who gave me the trust.

I applied internally and am looking for answers to this potential interview questions. Passed 2 rounds' interview and the last round with the MD, will be on next Mon.

Do you have any other advice on questions to get prepared? Is there anything I should be very careful during the interview?

Thank you!!

With kind regards,
BChen

 
6/13/17

I expect your session with the MD will be more of a get to know you thing than anything else.

A big advantage of internal hiring is that people already know you and have formed an opinion of you. The fact you were invited to and passed the first interviews probably implies people already held you in good standing.

You should know yourself what your (perceived) weaknesses are. Continue as you've been doing, stay modest, show you're keen to learn and demonstrate you'll fit in with the rest of the desk.

 
6/13/17

Thank you so much Chewie! I really learned a lot from you.

 
6/13/17

It's funny how all the recent graduates' Qs are "URGENT" (in caps) and ask about whether they are "fucked" or "screwed" and whether they should include their $1,000 portfolio "they manage generating 50% returns" in resume. And yet millennials keep telling people that the stereotype is false.

OP, everything is possible in life. You can move to FO or you can move to sales job in bumblefuck city. If you are just starting out on a new job, STFU and work hard at your job no matter what it is. You may like BO, just like some people like McD over In-n-Out.

 
 
6/13/17

this thread has relevant info (make sure to check out flake's other older q&a as well) -- http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/qa-with-flake-...
good luck

 
6/13/17

Most people go with Investment Banking because of the exit opportunities at like age 24/25 (namely a top business school degree to get into a more profitable or more relaxed field (PE vs. Corporate Finance). If you can get a top 10 Business School with 700+ GMAT you should be able to get a FO finance job. BTW software engineer is a really good profession if your looking to make 200K for the rest of your life after getting to director/whatever or you could get CTO of a smaller company which would set you up nicely for biz school. PM me if you want

 
6/13/17

^Assuming your considering transferring to a top business school

 
6/13/17

Husky, thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, my GMAT is mid/low 600. No where near top school caliber. My number one goal right now is to try and network internally, since I will be able to get recommendations from my boss if I'm moving around in the same organization. Its going to be tons of work, but I'm hoping asking for an internship or some kind of rotation program will make it a easier entry point, more importantly it will tell me if I'm cut out for the grunt work.

As for programming, unlike most programmers you see here I definitely don't resent my career, will I like to make more money? Of course who doesn't? If I stay in this career you're right I'll be looking to move out of BO and go into some kind of startup or smaller company.

Now here is the million dollar question when it comes to MBA. As I said earlier I'm pursing my MBA from UF. Why you may ask? Well for one my GMAT score sucks, two I have a house, family, and a career in FL, and third it is the best MBA program in the state. I'm giving a serious consideration to moving to NY or Chicago even if it is for the same career. If I was to get a MBA from say Loyola or DePaul in Chicago, even though they are un-ranked, would they offer better opportunities?

 
6/13/17

Maybe your situation is different but a recommendation from your boss will mean very little to anyone in non-IT/non-infrastructure divisions of your bank.

I know someone who worked in IT, took the GMAT again and dropped out of a shitty part-time MBA program to attend a top 10 b-school full time. That person interned at MBB during the MBA summer and has an offer lined up for after graduation. If you are willing to move to a different city and attend a different business school, what's stopping you from re-taking the GMAT and applying to something like Booth?

I realize it's one of those "I know a guy..." stories but it doesn't sound like that much of a reach if you are dedicated (getting into U. of Chicago is harder than I just made it sound, but even if you got into a top 20 school that's still something). Just hit that reset button...or you can just rely on someone in IBD to give a shit about what your boss in IT has to say.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

 
6/13/17

I would love to say I'm going to a Top 10 MBA program but it seems further out of reach then networking my way into IB. I just don't have the test taking aptitude to crank out a 700+ on the GMAT, combined with my 3.0 from no name state school, I would probably even need a higher GMAT score. UIUC/IU are both pretty good schools in the Chicago vicinity and I just might be able to get into them, but if the chance to completely switch careers is slim with those schools, then why waste the opportunity costs of quitting a full time job, putting the house up for rent/sale, etc.

Back onto the topic of Boutiques, should I continue to network with them or do you guys feel they would be wasteful to someone who already has a stable career?

 
6/13/17

Why should a boutique take you? Why do you think that will be easier than an internal move? You are still presented with the same constraints. The problem is not the size or type of the firm, it's your profile. You are putting all your eggs into that networking basket, which is great, it can help but that's all you got and it is a long shot.

Why can't you get a higher GMAT? What makes you think you are capable of handling IBD's workload or even the simplest quantitative aspects of trading if you can't dedicate a few weeks to improving high school level math and verbal skills?

If you like your job, you like the stability, you seem relatively content with the money you are making, then why are you moving at all? You should be hungrier than that.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

 
6/13/17

All very good questions. You're right I should be hungrier then that, consequently since networking is all I got its tough to feel like "I got this". The only reason I feel I have a chance of getting a internship at boutique's is because 1) UF is the best school in Florida. Sure outside the state its trash, but it might help me get a leg up on the local competition 2) I feel they probably don't have structured recruiting practice, especially if I'm asking to work for free. It goes without saying, that most MD's at these boutique's come from pedigree, although I've seen Raymond James has some UF guys in their IBD. I've taken the GMAT twice, its not like I put it away in the first shot. I'm planning on taking it one more time, just to give me some kind of confirmation that I can do better then UF.

None the less I gotta capitalize on my strengths, even if they are meager. At the same time hedging my career propects.

 
6/13/17

Flake, if you don't mind I'm going to pick your brain again. I just got off the phone with a Hedge Fund manager in Tampa. Pretty much just a informational interview. No talk about asking for jobs or anything. His first recommendation you need to narrow down what you want to do, even if you're not sure sell it like that is what you want to do. Totally makes sense. As for his background, Duke MBA, GS AM. Since IB is what is popular and loaded with wealth of information around the internet, this is the topic I focused on. These were his responses for the various FO categories. S&T, don't bother doing it, it has become very computerized, IB very hard to get into and trash work, AM easier to into (still want to learn what they do on a day to day), PWM another easier avenue to get into and very lucrative. Only reason I shunned off PWM, because it seemed very salesmen like. Maybe thats my introvert engineering side speaking. I expected IB to be the easiest to break into because it seems there are way more boutique's that do M&A work then anything else.

 
6/13/17

The lateral will certainly not be at the same seniority level, but yes, this does happen from time to time in rare instances.

 
 
6/13/17

Haven't worked there but I've talked to some alums and they are definitely trying to grow their presence in the US. Solid Healthcare banking practice and willing to utilize their balance sheet. Culture in FO is pretty nice and there is some good responsibility to be had.

For the lead! Sipag, tiyaga, at lakas ng loob!

 
 
6/13/17

JaySEO, hey, look at the bright side, at least you didn't get a ton of monkey shit thrown at you...here is my best guess on threads that might be helpful:

  • How hard it really is to get your 1st "big boy" job I really don't want to come off as pessimistic but with all of the back office bashing and ... banking at GS: Lloyd Blankfein. He was just like many us looking to get in finance. He didn't have ... went to law school and was a lawyer before coming back to goldman and the rest is history. Look at any ...
  • 1st Yr Associate IS- no UG degree- need advice on possible career change & school a career where I could earn just as much, without going back to school. Quick Career Summary: 07-09 ... more modeling, underwriting, deal structuring, etc I took the job, thinking I could get back in school ... me and its at this point I got serious about an alternative career path (age 26). I never graduated ...
  • AMA: Reflections on 1st Semester at Columbia Business School So just for Morgan Stanley, there were ~80 1st round interview spots for Columbia Students across ... For example, for 1st round interview slots, Eaton Vance has 13 slots. Also, whereas Goldman Sachs will ... investment banking these days. @OpsDude had a great post outlining how easy it is (numerically) to get into ...
  • 1st year analyst in a group that might get cut (Might be getting laid off)-- need advice I'm a 1st year analyst with just under 6 months of experience in a product group, and a lower ... to find a job at another bank when there are openings. But, as someone who has only been on the job ... prospects of having to look for jobs at other banks. Sorry for the long, wordy post, but I'd really ...
  • 11 months into 1st year analyst job, sick of it I would really appreciate any advice out there. And of course I'm unable to accept a job that pays ... asked to work past 7 or on weekends in that case. Thanks in advance tired career change advice ... it...I've noticed that I've gotten really aggressive lately in terms of pushing back and not accepting ...
  • 1st Big Boy Paycheck- Keep your heads up! summer, I interned for various financial institutions back home (retail banking, investment banking and ... anything in terms of opps, just shit ton of (useful) advice. I decided to take a month after graduation to ... work for boutique X doing M&A and I want to know if you can help me get in there. I-banking is what ...
  • Is your group hiring any first year analyst or 1st year laterals with 4 months exp? know of an opening within their group or another for an entry level/ 1st year analyst role? I am not ... Hey guys, I am currently at a small MM, and I was originally very happy to get the job and thought ... career, and I do not mind heavy hours. I realize I may have to "start over" in an an analyst ...
  • More suggestions...

No promises, but sometimes if we mention a user, they will share their wisdom: @revolthezero @amso @sivakumar-Batthala

If those topics were completely useless, don't blame me, blame my programmers...

 
 
6/13/17

No one gives a fuck. You're an intern. Spend half the time you're worrying about clothes on doing your job and you'll be okay.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

 
6/13/17

Haha seriously. Get some baller shoes if that makes you feel better...but your current wardrobe is most likely appropriate for the trading floor. Dress shirt, slacks, decent shoes and you're set. Just don't get suede Gucci loafers or some shit, unless you want to be laughed off the floor of course.

 
6/13/17

As everyone else has already said, it doesn't really matter. Just don't wear a blue shirt with a white collar, a red tie, & cuff links. Look conservative and try to blend in with your attire.

 
 
6/13/17

Honestly with a C to P ratio as such you must chell AF and will be crushing deals in no time.

Reminds me of McCoy

Edit to add some serious input

Sounds like you're doing everything that you should be doing. IMHO, moving BO to FO is not as hard as it is made out to be. Just like getting to the gym, the people who succeed at moving BO to FO are the ones who actually get up off their ass just do it.

Obviously there is no 'golden bullet,' as they say, but kissing some alumni ass and networking day after day is really the best way to make that move. The expression "it's all about who you know" is generic, but only because it's the god honest truth.

 
6/13/17

Sent out another 50 messages and still going strong!

 
6/13/17

I'm starting to wonder if the reason I have so many issues with the BO is they don't put any effort into their actual jobs as they all want to move to the FO, going by the volume of posts on WSO.

 
 
6/13/17

Back office guys have historically had a long shot chance of making the front office - a reward for bright, smart guys that have worked hard. Nick Leeson may have been dimissed as a one-off but Jerome Kerviel makes it a trend now. Any auditor/consultant risk reports will now explicitly spell out that this is an unacceptable risk.

This is a real shame because it looks pretty apparant to me that this was a cover-up from the more senior guys and Kerviel has taken the blame.

 
6/13/17

I didnt ever consider this being the case in reality but but it did make me think what I would do....

If you're SocGen CEO, making say 20-50 million a year(not this yr :p ) and a 7-10 bln loss will cost you your job, resulting in a 50 milion golden parachute and you'd basically never run another company again, would you pay a lowly trader 25mm to take all the heat and disappear in order to secure another 3-7 years of a 20-50 mm annual income?

if you were the lowly trader, what would the price be to take the heat and disappear? or even not disappear and just take it on the chin, since it looks like hes only facing like 3 yrs of jail.

 
6/13/17

an extra $25m (if that was what it took) could be easily fudged into the losses.

 
6/13/17

well didn't Eurex point to krievel possibly taking unauthorized positions? The derivatives exchnage ain't gonna lie for Societe.
Trick Eurex? Maybe. What about the fake documents to hide the trades and the fake Deutsche Bank email? They have a shitload of detailed evidence on how this went down over the last several months. They simply couldn't have planned this out after the fact to cover something else.

Besides, what about the compliance officers and all the other employees seeing this supposed conspiracy go down? Not one is going to let out even a little rumor- not even in a bar- half drunk?

Conspiracy theories are fun, but not realistic.

 
6/13/17
Master wrote:

well didn't Eurex point to krievel possibly taking unauthorized positions? The derivatives exchnage ain't gonna lie for Societe. Trick Eurex? Maybe. What about the fake documents to hide the trades and the fake Deutsche Bank email?

erm....that's the point. At what point and to whom did Eurex point this out to? The positions were pretty chunky throughout 2007 and it takes a certain naivety to think that no-one else in the company was aware of this.

Master wrote:

They have a shitload of detailed evidence on how this went down over the last several months. They simply couldn't have planned this out after the fact to cover something else.

Again, that's kind of my point. It was either an unprecedented level of gross incompetence at multiple levels....or somebody else was involved.

Master wrote:

Besides, what about the compliance officers and all the other employees seeing this supposed conspiracy go down? Not one is going to let out even a little rumor- not even in a bar- half drunk?

So you're saying the reason there is no conspiracy is because you don't have confirmed evidence of a conspiracy? Are you going to buy Yahoo! shares last week now that you know that Microsoft is bidding for them?

Master wrote:

Conspiracy theories are fun, but not realistic.

Conspirancy theories are sometimes fun and the best ones are realistic.

 
6/13/17
John Mack wrote:

erm....that's the point. At what point and to whom did Eurex point this out to? The positions were pretty chunky throughout 2007 and it takes a certain naivety to think that no-one else in the company was aware of this.

Eurex told the press. They said they contacted Societe 3 times because of suspicious trades made by Krievel. Among the things Krievel did to cover it is to make a fake email from Deutsche Bank to claim he balanced the trade. But if you read the papers, you would now that some of his superiors may well have been aware of it, but did nothing because he was initally doing very well. That part is unknown and is the basis of Krievel's defense. But to say that it was all fabricated by upper management to hide something else is ludicrous (and doesn't make sense because nothing damages reputation as much as lax trading regulations causing a blowup)

Quote:

Again, that's kind of my point. It was either an unprecedented level of gross incompetence at multiple levels....or somebody else was involved.

Again? I don't understand what you're saying. Of course these are the only two options. But the second is alot less likely.

Quote:

So you're saying the reason there is no conspiracy is because you don't have confirmed evidence of a conspiracy? Are you going to buy Yahoo! shares last week now that you know that Microsoft is bidding for them?

Now you're saying I'm wrong because I have no evidence that there WASN'T a conspiracy? That's not how it works you dolt.
And since when is a rumor from an insider 'confired evidence'? That would be more than enough for me to consider the possibility. The problem is there is nothing besides third-party idiots on the web. I think it's fun- but stop being a defensive ass about it.

 
6/13/17

and, unless you work in the back office at Soc Gen in Paris, then you are too. My conclusions are based upon my knowledge of front office, friends' knowledge of back office, and conversations with people that have recently worked at Soc Gen. If you want to rely solely on what you read in the papers then that's your lookout.

Master wrote:

Eurex told the press. They said they contacted Societe 3 times because of suspicious trades made by Krievel. Among the things Krievel did to cover it is to make a fake email from Deutsche Bank to claim he balanced the trade. But if you read the papers, you would now that some of his superiors may well have been aware of it, but did nothing because he was initally doing very well. That part is unknown and is the basis of Krievel's defense. But to say that it was all fabricated by upper management to hide something else is ludicrous (and doesn't make sense because nothing damages reputation as much as lax trading regulations causing a blowup)

I don't get what you are saying here. Did Krievel act alone or were his actions condoned by others? Based upon what you have written, why is the latter not more likely?

Master wrote:

Now you're saying I'm wrong because I have no evidence that there WASN'T a conspiracy? That's not how it works you dolt.

No - YOU are the one that said that I am wrong. I said that I do not believe Kerviel acted alone as is being made out. If evidence comes to light that he wasn't then this moves out of the realm of a theory. I am open to the possibility that he did act alone but I do not think it likely and I would want more details of how he did it that don't sound ridiculous before I would think otherwise. On the other hand, you seem quite happy to take the papers at face value.

If you feel that insults add more weight to your compelling argument then keep at it.

Master wrote:

And since when is a rumor from an insider 'confired evidence'? That would be more than enough for me to consider the possibility.

What are you referring to here?

Master wrote:

The problem is there is nothing besides third-party idiots on the web. I think it's fun- but stop being a defensive ass about it.

If you attack my view and I think I have reasonable grounds to defend it, why shouldn't I? If you have a considered view then let's hear it but otherwise you're just trolling for an internet fight.

 
6/13/17

Plus, if Kerviel were really getting some huge payoff to act as the scapegoat, he wouldn't be telling the press "I refuse to take responsibility for their writedowns/mistakes"

 
6/13/17

you're an idiot, I'm not going cotinue this.

If there's no reason to doubt the accuracy of journalism reporting, the eurex statements, and the authorities- then YES I WILL BELIEVE THEM.
Just start a blog, you conspiracy nut.

(Don't bother responding to this unless you have DETAILED EVIDENCE to give me that contradicts with what the authorities have told us)

 
6/13/17

unless you are willing to accept that you might be wrong.

Here are some articles that question the validity of the claim that Kerviel acted alone.

Press wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7206270.stm"I am sorry but I have a hard time buying the fact that a trader was able to set up a 'secret trade' of 4.9 billion without anybody finding out," said Ion-Marc Valhi at Amas Bank.

Press wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/new..., police today arrested a second person, an employee at a brokerage arm of Societe Generale, again raised the question of whether Kerviel acted alone.

Press wrote:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080128/france_bank_fraud.h... prosecutor, based on Kerviel's account to investigators, confirmed Societe Generale's contention that the trader used other people's computer access codes, falsified documents and used other methods to cover his tracks -- helped by his previous experience in other offices at the bank that monitor traders. The bank says he bet some 50 billion ($73.53 billion) -- more that the bank's market worth -- on European markets.

Press wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POoxmkHCcMs

Press wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/26/business/worldbu... less-than-impressive persona has led to doubts that he could be the sole culprit in the bank's enormous losses. Despite a lack of evidence, some financial experts, especially in France, have suggested that Mr. Kerviel might be a scapegoat for other losses incurred by Societe Generale, some perhaps related to subprime mortgages.

Press wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/business/worldbu... time one of Mr. Kerviel's trades was questioned, he would describe it as a "mistake" and cancel the trade, Mr. Mustier said. "But in fact, he then replaced that trade with another transaction using a different instrument" to avoid detection, he said.

Press wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?view=D... Mr Kerviel's lawyers have insisted he has been made a "scapegoat" who "did no wrong", his former bosses on Sunday finally admitted that he may have had accomplices.

This means that anybody he contacted outside SocGen's recorded telephone lines could have been involved.

According to police sources Mr Kerviel had already began his threat to 'name names' after Daniel Bouton, SocGen's under firer chairman, compared the trader to a lone "arsonist" who "burnt down a big factory".

France's finance minister Christine Lagarde also suggested that Mr Kerviel acted alone, saying today: "There is no reason currently to think that it was anything other than a single trader."

However, many in the industry have not accepted this as plausible, arguing Mr Kerviel did not have the experience to hide fraud on such a big scale. It appeared information from hours of interviews backed up that theory and bank bosses were forced into a u-turn.

I'd really rather you didn't continue since there appears to be no value in debating anything with you. Just what exactly are you a Master of?

 
6/13/17

hey numbnuts, most of your links aren't relevant to what you're saying.

The only one that purports a major fraud is the nytimes op-ed piece. I have high respect for the times, but I can accept there are conspiracy fools there too.

Quote:

I'd really rather you didn't continue since there appears to be no value in debating anything with you. Just what exactly are you a Master of?

I'm a master of cutting your little penis of and sticking it up your fat whore of mother's ass. I'm done and I'm happy with this thread.

 
6/13/17

It was posted yesterday morning. Nobody talks about my....penis...and gets away with it...

 
6/13/17

im not quite sure I understand his underlying motive for this. Had he been sucessful wouldnt there have been red flags raised for a spike in risk. Back in the 90s when Leeson was busted the bank realized that no one was able to make that type of money arbitraging and the profit was indeed from prop trading. The rest of course is history

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.

 
6/13/17
John Mack wrote:

did you get your degree in Burgernomics yet?
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressReleasesMolt/i...

Lol. Master must feel stupid.

 
 
6/13/17

Will be changing locations btw. Asia -> UK

Bring water, food for at least 6 months, gold coins, a torch and pepper spray.

 
6/13/17

please, anyone have any inputs?

 
6/13/17

You're fine. Just as nobody would give a shit about an amazing BO performance, your poor one will be overlooked as well. It's all about that top school of yours and the MBA internships/networking from now on.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

 
6/13/17

Agreed with Flake. The only issue with references tends to be when you're moving within an area that people know each other, and can make an informal call - no way some head of a trading desk will bother calling an ops guy in Asia for a reference - it will be done most likely via HR.

 
6/13/17

anyone else care to comment?

I know this may sound embarrasing, but when looking for a job at school, and companies ask for previous salary/bonus, would they be suspicious if first yr bonus is 5K and second yr is zero?

 
 
6/13/17
 
6/13/17

Please any advice would be appreciated since I have little time !

 
6/13/17

Presumably, you do not have to accept or reject the offer on the spot. Just say thanks and this is great. Then ask someone in HR, not your direct group, if you can interview for other positions in the firm. Also, interview at as many firms as you can during the fall. It might be tougher to interview at your current firms than others.

 
6/13/17

Thanks! Just worried they might renege my offer in my current division if I ask for IBD.

 
 
6/13/17

C

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

 
6/13/17

Psu is a good school. What are your stats? Assume you were an E in the military - what was your mos/rate?

 
6/13/17

Flake, thank you, but if you don't mind, why C?

td12, PSU would have been great if I studied finance. The street likes our student run fund. I got a As, I was an E-4, and I was an enlisted aviator - Loadmaster.

 
6/13/17

What was your Gpa? A's so u had a 4.0? Have u sat for GMAT?

 
6/13/17

C.

You've got a lot going for you. Former military, CS undergrad, a few years work out in the private sector and if you get a solid B-school network and recruiting behind you... World will be wide open. Just start data mining this site for as much information as possible and get it done.

Good luck.

 
6/13/17

td12, my bad, 3.7, did not sit yet.
ArcherVice, thank you for the advice, it made my day. I'm currently talking to a recruiter internally from the private bank. I think working over there might be a good choice before going to b-school. Any thoughts?

 
6/13/17

Private bank as in a private banking analyst, not private bank IT...It's a long shot but it's worth a shot.

 
6/13/17

Looks like the Private Bank move is not going to work out.

At my 2 yr mark, I'm considering going to NYU's Part-Time MBA program and contiunue working in bank IT.
I figure that I will continue to make money while going to school part-time and then do an internal move to IB or AM. Some people have told me to just leave and go full time at a top 20 school. Thoughts? I'm currently studying for the GMAT. Any direction you guys could offer would be much apreciated.

 
6/13/17

Looks like the Private Bank move is not going to work out.

At my 2 yr mark, I'm considering going to NYU's Part-Time MBA program and contiunue working in bank IT.
I figure that I will continue to make money while going to school part-time and then do an internal move to IB or AM. Some people have told me to just leave and go full time at a top 20 school. Thoughts? I'm currently studying for the GMAT. Any direction you guys could offer would be much apreciated.

 
 
6/13/17

It all depends breh. Good news is, I have seen it happen before.

First, dont do a thing before the hiring managers know you. I mean, really know you. As in- they like your work and would be happy to have you on the team. This is the most important thing and literally the best part of being a consultant- your being able to build a rapport and network with those in industry. Find the person (no email) and simply say:

"I am a consultant working on site, but I've always has an interest in in your role/type of work. If you have a second, I would love to grab a coffee/beer and maybe discuss your background"

The more your CV does not align with the skills for the role, the more of a rapport youre going to need.

Ive seen several guys come in from IT service providers or Compliance consultants (while I was on the trading side of things). They would come in and do their thing and most of us barely knew who they were or wth they were doing. Eventually a few would come over and awkwardly tell my head trader how much they 'liked the markets/wanted to be on the team'. The boss would give the same non-descrip advice: "Keep working hard/I'll keep you in mind" . Consultant leaves thinking he is on his way to the FO, while the boss would forget their name altogether. That is not rapport.

So in short, you have to build a relationship (sooner than later). Great thing about this is that you can do this without your current firm knowing (there is nothing wrong for having a drink with one of your clients). Once you have a rapport, take your shot. Dont waste your bullet on a random email that will most likely get sent to the trash

"Sounds to me like you guys a couple of bookies."

 
6/13/17

Thanks man, that sounds like good advice, looks like i'll need to personally get in touch with the guy.

Slight problem though: The back office (where I'm at) is physically separated from the front office. It's in the tech hub a few clicks away from the CBD, where the front office is.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to PM him on the inter-office chat to set up a meeting? I reckon that'd just get brushed aside like an email

 
6/13/17

I wouldn't ping a manager. Most people hate getting pinged at work. I would email, and ask for a moment of their time to offer advice on how you can improve your chances based off your experience

 
6/13/17

I guess if you cant physically make the intro, than an email will have to suffice. I agree with the poster above, I would stay away from using any PM or intranet IM.

Keep it casual and ask for a quick chat. And refrain from using subjects that can be shot down with a quick 'no' or a brush off.

"Sounds to me like you guys a couple of bookies."

 
 
6/13/17

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6/13/17

"Loser terrorists" & "bad hombres"

"Typical candidates are those who attended a top-tier academic institution"
-Most job applications