MBB vs. Deloitte S&O
Wanted to get general thoughts on leaving an MBB firm as a well performing consultant to join Deloitte's S&O practice as a manager. I have substantial previous experience in a practice they are trying to grow and will have strong access to firm leadership. I am hesitant leave in the event a year or two from now I decide I no longer want to work in consulting.
Will I severely limit my exit opportunities making the move?
Are there any other consideration I should think about
Hard to answer without a bit more context - what's the title progression (e.g. are you going from Sr. Analyst to Manager or straight from Analyst to Manager), $/% salary bump, longer term goals (this is relevant for your exit opps), etc.?
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"MBBD" thanks, i needed a laugh this evening
Huh.
Title would go from consultant to Manager. Total comp would increase to MBB manager level, and track to promotion would be sped up quite a bit.
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Strongly disagree with this as well. Think long term (>5 years) whether you stay in consulting or not
I strongly disagree with the advice from @opsdude1
Have you looked at the leverage ratios Most MBB tend to be 6-8 client facing staff per client facing partners. Deloitte S&O is significantly higher -- I would guess around 15, maybe more. This is how they make up for their lower rates.
Lower rates * more leverage = comparable compensation for partners (plus or minus, with some gaps in some areas).
What are the implications?
Promotion time at MBB tends to be quicker. At my MBB from post-MBA to partner is 6-8 years. What is it at Deloitte S&O? More leverage means more people are fighting for each spot above them in the pyramid, which means slower promotion. Obviously attrition rate and firm growth rate matter, too, but any differences here are smaller compared to the large leverage ratio difference.
Other costs matter more. The margins are tighter at a place like S&O, so they have to be tighter on their other costs, too, which can be less fun sometimes
In addition to these, there are some other things to consider: * Average project quality won't be as good. More tactical, less prestigious
You're part of an accounting firm. There will be more compliance training. If and when you do become a partner, this will change things quite a bit, including your role and potential influence.
Prestige, as you mention, is less. Over time this will diminish your exit ops a bit. Not a huge factor. Really the bigger thing here I think would be the slower promotion mentioned above, which would slow down your exit options
I don't know, man. I don't see the upside. You get a quick, short-term boost in pay/title. However, you give up better trajectory e.g., better pay/title in the medium and long term. Then there are other factors like tighter expense/travel policies, less cool projects, and not being able to brag about the company name (ha ha).
Your decision to make, but that's my opinion.
Full disclosure: Previously was at a tier-2 firm (like S&O), now at MBB. I have data on bill rates, leverage ratios, and promotion timelines at both firms.
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opsdude1, you are quite busy on these forums telling everybody how close Deloitte has become to MBB and how their project work is practically the same. However, when I look at their project teams that I see at my clients, I get a very different feeling about this. If you work for Deloitte S&O, I understand that it is in your interest to make them appear in a good picture. It is also cool that you like your firm so much and that you show so much loyalty, having proud and happy employees is definitely a sign of a healthy and great company.
However, what you keep telling everybody is different from what I see in the market, heard from clients and also heard from a few people at Deloitte S&O (We recently had a small team switch over). Maybe I just know the wrong people and others might have a different experience with your company, but due to the aforementioned points, I would advise the forum members seeking for help to take your comments with a large grain of salt.
Also, it is funny how whenever you post in a thread, everybody who says that Deloitte is not on par with the other top consultancies is bombarded with monkey shit...
What BigPicture said - also another factor overlooked is the onboarding risk when jumping into the pool there. The risk can increase as you move to a larger and/or more diversified firm.
The unfortunate reality is that people can fall through the cracks and this results in amplifying the overall downside risk.
Firms are much better at the integration process when it comes to program intakes (ba/mba/etc). Integration for experienced hires can be more varied.
A good conversation to have is on what programs they have in place to manage the onboarding process for an experienced hire and for how long they have some 'training wheels' to help provide momentum for you while you build your network there, learn the politics, etc.
Not taking a stance +/- on whether to jump - just thought this was an impt aspect to consider.
I think the Deloitte S&O bashing is starting to slow down, but let's not delude ourselves and think they will be MBB. They won't ever get there, not until they split from the rest of Deloitte and become a global partnership not constrained by audit compliance.
That being said, they should be given due credit for how they are DIFFERENT. They have a different value proposition and exemplary people working for them.
Deloitte's consulting arm makes over $10B -- that's a "B" -- a year in revenue. People who are actually in business, and in the industry, are laughing at all the prestige whores who say "Goldman or bust", or "MBB or nothing".
Yes, you will severely limit your exit ops. Think about the top 20 companies and roles you would like to have. Then go on LinkedIn and find those people. Where did they come from?
My friend just did this in MBA. He was sponsored by Deloitte, saw a huge diff in exit ops, turned down the $120K reimbursement + Manager role and went to BCG to become a Consultant. You see this trend with the Deloitte Summers too; when Deloitte extends full-time offers, they also pay for the second year. Despite this, pretty much everyone re-recruits for MBB.
Wanted to add another data point: At my M7 b-school, there were 17 Deloitte summers that received full-time offers, including paid tuition for 2nd year. 11 signed the offer and did not recruit FT.
Opinions on campus were pretty much consistent with this thread: varied. All things equal you wouldn't find anyone that would take Deloitte over MBB, but throw in a big enough signing bonus, and more preferable office locations, and some people started taking the "bird in hand", while others were determined to MBB or bust.
Anecdotally it also seems to me that international MBB offices seemed to recruit/produce similar level levels of talent to their US offices, while Deloitte S&O international consultants were significantly a cut below their US (and UK) counterparts. MBB Beijing vs. Deloitte Beijing requires significantly less thought than MBB NYC vs. Deloitte NYC. This is also reflected in b-school admissions, as you see plenty of international MBB consultants in M7 business schools, but predominantly only US/UK S&O consultants.
Another factor you may want to consider, which would add a point to the 'stick with MBB'-bucket, is the risk associated with joining 'a growth area' as a manager. This means you will not have many talented colleagues in the area, it may take time to get the right projects or they may never come (if there is no competent partners in the area to sell them) and you may face long bench time or being sold to other projects instead. If it goes well, it could lead to fast promotions, but it is quite risky. If you are indeed a top performer, as you say, then stay. Stay as long as you remain one.
Having gone through Deloitte recruiting...the type of work I saw (mostly IT/Ops), the people they hire (perhaps a biased selection), the sheer size of the firm, and the caliber of campuses they attract from, just cannot compete with MBB. Deloitte S&O is fine and growing well, but the company's impressive profitability doesn't necessarily mean YOU will be better off, right? Make the decision that is best for you, and choose the door that will open more options for you today, not the forecasted nature of how the industry will look one nebulous day in who knows how many more decades. basically, OP, you have a good option but i personally think the quality of leadership and work you'll be exposed to with MBB (whether its client/internal side) will help you grow more as a consultant whether or not you're a manager vs consultant, and will obviously make it easier to leave. good luck!
disclaimer- i'm not affiliated with MBB but have friends who work there.
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It's hard to re-recruit for MBB when you have to sacrifice the early signing bonus (I've heard over $10k) AND give up 2nd year tuition reimbursement
A couple of things to think about (disclaimer: former S&O heading to an MBB this summer):
I would do the same for actual exit opps. You know what opportunities you're starting to get while at your firm, and you probably have head hunter contacts already. If not, find some, and use them for info gathering. They are a pretty unbiased information source that can help you determine what jobs are only for MBB, and where they have placed S&O people. Obviously ,LinkedIn can help here too.
Personally, I think BigPicture kind of nailed it. I probably wouldn't do it. Then again, I am about to start work at one side of this equation and don;t work at the other anymore, so take that with a grain of salt.
Can you talk a little more about/clarify the Bain staffing issue?
Current Bain people can probably describe this better, but Bain staffs locally - e.g. a project team is made up of consultants from the New York office, and staffing is done by a local staffing manager. This limits travel (somewhat, depending on office), and more importantly (according to Bain), creates a strong office culture. It's one of the key things they market during recruiting, and one of the main points that current employees refer to when discussing "why Bain".
It's not necessarily better - there are pros and cons to local versus regional versus national models. However, Deloitte is essentially a polar opposite, and if I was used to Bain's model, it would be really hard for me to go all the way over to Deloitte's, especially as an experienced hire.
Ah, gotcha, thanks!
BGP2587 thoughtpolice
The regional vs. national is not the key difference. While everything you said is true and does have implications on travel, culture, the bigger difference comes is the role of the Staffing Manager within the two firms' staffing models. Compared to Deloitte, where I've heard staffing is very much networking based (e.g., you have to proactively reach out to partners and get them to onboard you), Bain staffing is much more led by the Staffing Manager (as in managed centrally).
This has very real implications for your experience as a junior BA/A/AC, especially if you decide that you want to shake up your experience a bit after a couple projects. Bain model lends itself more easily to jumping around different industries/functional areas, as long as your track record is good. Under the Deloitte model, the need to net work coupled with the increased emphasis on utilization at Deloitte means that there is a bit of risk associated with searching for a new partner to work with. (It could be a bit before you find a project in the industry/function you want especially since you could be competing against someone whom the partner's already familiar with)
The flip side is that if you do well with a partner and like what you're doing, you can have a very positive experience. I know many people at Deloitte who essentially worked with the same partner for a couple years and comfortably got promoted, had rec letters written by the partner, etc.
I think this matters less at the manager level, since most managers work with a small group of partners to begin with in order to develop their expertise & platform to reach partnership. But for junior analysts, it can make a big difference.
Yes there is - how many years are you into your current role? If you're getting 2 years of tenure and its benefits - I'd say it's debatably worth it.
If it's 1 year - definitely not. Partnership is much faster and much more rewarding at MBB.
What? The reality is, Deloitte only wins bids by undercutting price between 50-100% (for free) - the fact that they aren't winning everything at such steep discounts for the same exact work is just a testament to how big the gap is. And by and large, the three firms only take each other seriously.Here's a few other things I'd encourage you to consider.
a) Rankings and Perception - Let's say Deloitte does rank as #4. Fine. But let's say we have a golf tournament with primetime Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy, Phil Mickelson... and you. You'll be #4, which is great... but you'll be #4 by a long shot. Using the Vault Guide, here's how consultants voted for "Best Strategy Consulting":
Clearly Deloitte is a bit of an afterthought in strategy consulting, regardless of the good work they do. That kind of perception reflects on the firm, which reflects on you and your potential futures. Assume an HR director gets two identically talented people in front of them; one has Bain on the resume and the other has Deloitte - what will he/she pick? I think the answer would be pretty clear.
Looking at it from a "Prestige Score" angle tells the same story - there's a rapid drop off after the top 3.
b) Exit Ops - Just check out the exit ops with LinkedIn. It tells a consistent story. Take Google for instance and look at the top people in their Strategy and Operations Group (just search for "Top Google Strategy Profiles LinkedIn").
LinkedIn is great for this kind of research. This story repeats itself across numerous firms and industries, from Tesla to KKR to Genentech to Chipotle. Just insert the companies that you might be interested in and see what comes up.
b) Promotion - Totally agree with the other comments about the cleaner and faster progression track. At my B4, and I also hear at Deloitte, Partner progression is 10-12 years. There was an absolute glut at Senior Manager, all chomping at the bit to sniff the lowest level of Partner. At MBB, as you already know, is 6-8 years to Partner. Whether you're great or need to get out, you'll know faster at MBB - after which you can transition elsewhere.
c) Projects - I'd agree that most consulting firms do similar work. But at MBB, you get a shot at the WOW projects that other firms dream of. Restructure the Roman Catholic Church? Recover Malaysian Airlines from crisis? Save the UCal system? Hell, Romney even said that if he were President, he would hire McKinsey to fix the government. Quite simply, in these do-or-die cases, you don't get fired for hiring MBB, whereas you might for hiring Deloitte... even if they did slash their prices by 50% per usual.
Deloitte is bs compared to MBB. MBB are comparable to 1st tier (not top tier) IBDs, whereas Deloitte is "Big Four"; and "Big Four" sucks...
Deloitte is a solid firm but it's not MBB. It's very clear in the U.S. who competes for highest priority client projects. Not to say that Deloitte doesn't win work, they absolutely do. It's just more tactical where # of bodies really matters and cost is a factor. I don't see any value in a 1-2 year fast track by switching to Deloitte unless you think you can't cut it at MBB (in which case I would say take the golden exit opps anyway)..
Deloitte as a whole has lower standards than MBB, yes. BUT, don't forget that the majority of work at MBB (and McK and BCG in particular) is operations. Here Deloitte S&O is ranked among the very best. In strategy, Deloitte has Monitor Deloitte which is a pure strategy practice. Work here is very different. Many come from MBB anyway and Monitor is winning more and more from MBB in the strategy space at the top clients. Further, Deloitte has a tech-unit which MBB cannot match. The future of strategy will incorporate digital/tech. Monitor Deloitte has great prospects.
Operations means something else at MBB than it does at the T2 firms. The approach is vastly different as are the activities. In the strat realm the MBB are still king and Deloitte is not going to touch them any time soon. Even the strat work Monitor does is not the same as strat work MBB does. The high stake projects where client leadership doesn't know the answer unequivocally gets relayed to the big dogs. Deloitte seems to be making progress, although culture seems to be going down hill, but only in the US. Deloitte is probably at the bottom of Tier 2 anywhere else in the world.
This Hillary/Opsdude has done a neat job advertising his firm but that's about it
Its about tier-ing
When I think of Bain, I think of McKinsey,BCG when I think of Deloitte, its the big 4
Post-MBA MBB Versus Deloitte S&O - unique situation (Originally Posted: 01/11/2015)
Thanks guys! the info you gave was helpful
So does everyone else in the world, besides opsdude and a few delusional souls at S&O.
and we get shit thrown for speaking our honest opinion
If it was me, I would just go with my gut decision on this one. If you liked Deloitte and you feel like they would offer you more (opportunities, location, etc.) than an MBB would, then I would just go with 'em.
I'd vote Deloitte. It sounds like you've identified whats important to you and that you can find that at Deloitte. Silly to let prestige chasing make you miserable.
If you think they'll remember whatever staffing commitment they are making to you now 2 years down the road when you are full time, you are sorely mistaken. There is a big difference between sales pitch to some intern and 'business needs'. Not to mention, as MBB is moving more towards non-strategy work, where do you think Deloitte and others are moving to? They are already there. Deloitte still pulls long hours, just not as much as McK. Tuition reimbursement, etc. is a different story. But if you are so worried about location (e.g. being in NYC) and cost effective decision, you'll spend lot more in living cost anyway compared to Houston/Atlanta or wherever your MBB options are. Lastly, you need to get a MBB offer first. They interview hundreds in each school and offer rate is more like 10-20%. Also, Deloitte and McK has national staffing model vs. regional for Bain/BCG which can alter lifestyle quite a bit.
Fully agree with Abacab and I will pile on some more. First off, it sounds like you are either counting chickens before they hatch or trying to rationalize why you should be happy with landing a Deloitte offer (by the way, congrats!) rather than with MBB. As already mentioned, the conversion rate between turning a first round interview to a full time offer with MBB is not great. My personal opinion is that you should always look to maximize your opportunities and that would involve interviewing with as many firms as possible before you try to assess your situation. Otherwise, we could sit here and have unproductive "what-if" conversations all day long.
But most importantly, coming from a someone who has experience with both non-MBB and MBB, it is naive to think that you will have firm control over your projects, hours, or career which happen to be three of the criteria that you list as being favorable to Deloitte. While you state your preferences, often times business needs and timing will dictate where you get staffed. Also, project scopes change all the time and both the former and latter will affect how sexy and cool your work is. But ultimately, your ability to progress your career at either non-MBB or MBB will depend on a number of uncontrollable factors such as whether your champion stays or leaves the firm, how successful your projects end up (everyone on a sinking ship gets screwed), rapport with your managers (there can be some real assholes in consulting), and etc.
I am by no means advocating MBB over Deloitte or vice versa but I do think that is important to make sure you fully understand the data points that you are using to make your decision. My personal vote is to interview with MBB and see how everything plays out.
I agree with those saying you should interview and see what happens, you don't seem to have a great grasp on the firms' cultures and if you get offers you'll be exposed to many more people. The only thing I'll say is that if the location of your interviews is really undesirable to you, it might be worth following up and letting the offices know about your offer and requesting to interview for your priority city. I know it's tempting to play around with the easier locations to get but it's a waste of your time if you actually have no interest in living there.
I think you should take all interviews. There is so much that can go wrong in a case interview that will get you dinged (e.g. a silly mental math error that throws you off course) that I believe you will maximize your chances by having as many first round interviews as possible. If you get through multiple first round, I would use that (and your offer) as leverage to interview for second round at your desired location instead. With Deloitte S&O as your backup (congrats, btw!) you really have nothing to lose by trying to play the game. You may go through the process, get an offer from one of MBB and decide on S&O anyways, but it would be foolish to not at least interview.
One factor that you don't seem to have considered is that I believe you can go from a summer internship at MBB to full-time at S&O if you don't like the culture, but almost certainly not the other way around.
PM me if you want to discuss this indepth, I'm facing something similiar
Based off your post I'd say take Deloitte. Go with your gut bro, at the end of the day the difference really isn't all that big to justify choosing one you identified as not a fit.
did you win the national case competition? :)
OP - can you actually do this without violating a non-compete? I'm at MBB and my non-compete is pretty strict in language regarding consulting for current clients or their competitors for 18 months after leaving. It would seem hard to avoid this seeing as you have experience in the area S&O is looking to build.
I am in no way a legal expert - just wondering if you have thought about this.
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