Anyone catch this article? Talks about how many Asians do very well Academically, yet once they graduate they do not do too well in the corporate hierarchy due to a 'Bamboo Ceiling'
What does everyone here think? Without trying to stereotype or offend anyone, i think a lot of it has to do with the fact that many Asians tend to congregate with each other and do not create a more diverse group of friends. This has more to do with experiencing many different cultures and a wide array of social events, as opposed to a pure networking standpoint.
Asians tend to lack creativity. They are great at reading and regurgitating but any context where the answer is not clear cut (the corporate world) they struggle.
The Chinese are masterful copy cats, but they are not innovative.
I am not denying that some Asians are geared more towards the creative subjects, but lets be honest the vast majority of them go into math/science subjects. In addition, the Chinese are notorious for copyright infringement of western designs and are always in trouble because of it.
It's a culture thing. Asian people have a more collectivist mindset and they suffer when having to transition to positions of leadership. They make great worker bees, but not good queen bees, lol. Obviously this is a bit of a stereotype, but there is a lot of truth to it.
I love the mention of pick-up in the article.
I think it boils down to trust.
This provided a nice contrast to 'Why Chinese Mother's are Superior' over at WSJ. Good post.
anyone who has worked in the corporate world in any capacity could have written this article. In banking they happen to be predominantly Asian, but they exist across the corporate hierarchy. Smart people who have no other use but to be locked in a closet and told what to do. They can't manage, they are not client facing. See also: the difference between analyst and associate recruiting.
I definitely don't think it's a culture thing, more like it applies (very well I might add) to Asians in the US. Even the most "whitewashed" Asians I know here find it difficult to be completely integrated into the white bro scene, so they congregate with other "cool" Asians (and of course the nerds congregate with each other).
But go to any Asian country and you will see both alpha Asians and beta Asians in the business arena. Asians run a lot of shit in Asian countries (no shit) and a lot of them hold top dog positions. So I would argue that it's not that Asian upbringing/culture/values that are inferior in a business setting, but that it's simply not the same as white/western culture, and that is going make them fundamentally less accepted/integrated as leaders in a western country.
Also disagree on the creativity bit. Asians are no less creative than white people, it's just that they tend to adopt the more risk-averse approach in a white-dominated work environment. Obviously you're going to feel less comfortable sticking your neck out and throwing out an original idea if you're the only Asian in a room full of white people (you are representing your race to a certain extent whether you like it or not), versus working in Asia and being in business settings full of other Asian people. You get the point.
Not client facing...who do you think faces the Chinese clients when you do business in Asia? Now if you were to say "not white-client facing in the west" I would be inclined to agree with you.
Wow. This is why schools would be insane to let 70% of there class be Asian. Harvard would lose all its prestige once prospective freshman would learn that the average alumni is just coding. I don't want to sound racist, but the entire paradigm of studying till your heart wears out is inane and has stilted an entire generation of children.
But then, why are THEY keeping a low profile in front of us and not the other way around?
What it really boils down to is relative management abilities. Are there asians that are better at management and holding senior positions? Sure there are, those Azns in Asia will run stuff.
However their american peers will yet again be alot better than even the "good management asians", hence the asians run into trouble into the US. You are right tough in the sense that this could be classified as down to cultural differences.
So let's turn it around: do you think "good management Americans" would succeed and rise to the top if they were put in an Asian corporation, working with and presenting to predominantly Asian managers and clients?
Personally, I have a hard time imagining a white guy speaking up at a board meeting full of Asian colleagues with the same confidence he would in an American setting. This parallels the previous example of it being harder for an Asian guy to speak up in a room full of whites. To me, this says that Asians don't necessarily lack the innate skill to lead. Instead, it just shows that it's harder to assert one's opinion to a group that shares a cultural tie that is relatively foreign to you.
I agree.
Asians are basically facing the same subtle discrimination that Jewish immigrants were in the 1940's and 50's. Harvard was reluctant to admit them for their lack of "well-roundedness." Yeah, that wasn't coded language. While Asians are facing a more tolerant social environment today, their problem is compounded by differences in physical appearance. They can't just change their last name and blend in with WASP society.
Overall, their progress is fairly amazing though. They are disproportionately from 1st and 2nd generation households, which means little inherited wealth or social connections. I suspect this will work itself out with another generation, moreso on the West Coast than in the Northeast.
Similar to that post about the recruiting process a while back. I remember the op saying that the asian with a 3.9 in economics was impressive the first time around, but after a dozen or so of them he didn't care.
I always just thought in general the asians I came across at university were just really really timid and have the wrong idea of what they need to do to succeed in the western world. They would be in the library all day everyday and during exams sleeping there. They would be so focused on getting the highest grade they could that its like they lost sight of other important things. Almost as if getting a high first is worth all the sacrifice of getting a low first (like 3.8 vs 4.0 in GPA terms).
This might connect to that chinese mother article, maybe they just need the tangible results to show to their parents, I dont really know to be honest.
Asian here, grew up more slightly more "whitewash" than your typical Asian kid, Heres my 2 cents,
It boils down to the culture and the overall education structure of Asia. If you've had a chance like myself to study in Asia and the west you'll see the big contrasts. In Asia, school starts around 830 and usually ends at 5, with more tutors after. Most of them have no real time for any extracurricular activities. The same study habits carry over when they move over to study abroad, they elect to stay in their comfort zone and hang out exclusively with other Asia. Although the infamous UCLA girl video is quite offensive, it’s actually quite accurate. These kids study and study and study believing a 4.0 will automatically land them a job. I personally know a guy whos a smart fellow, amazing grades with no real social skills. Couldn’t land a position so he decided to go for a master degree instead of networking. I had a chat with him recently, he finished his degree and moved back home, unemployed still.
First of all, I don't think we(I am Asian) are innate less creative than whites. The ancient Chinese had great inventions in the past. Terry Tao, Stephen Chu, CY yang are some of the wells known scientists. However, even these successful scientists were educated in the West. I think the West promotes individualism, which often leads to more creativity.
A lot of the Asian immigrants have the mindset to study hard and get a good job. Many Asian parents have the perception of good grade correlates into success. I also think Asians are less comfortable with being the minority in business environments. Most of the Asian people I know also dislike small talk(about the weather, weekends, etc.) That being said, there are tons of Alpha business people in Asia. Asians managers in Asia are a lot more assertive. I feel that many Asians feel some kind of inferiority in the West(white people run the country, I am just happy to have a high paying job type of mentally). Therefore, many Asians may feel uncomfortable to "order around" their white subordinates. This is just my opinion.
Being Asian myself, actually born and lived in Beijing for many years, I have to say this thing is slightly offending.
To me it's simply different ways of thinking leading to vastly different behaviors in life, and it's hard to judge what behaviors are intrinsically better than others, rather than that some might just suit the current conditions better. Asians tend to be more obsessed with the quantitative, whereas white kids tend to prefer stories to statistics, so I don't think it's fair to say that Asians have bad management skills because they are Asians. Management skills after all are a qualitative skill set that asian societies, having been conditioned in the way they had in the last 200 or so years, happen to not have emphasized.
Also Many Chinese wall streeters I've personally met have initially come to this country for their PhDs in math, chemistry, physics etc...So as far as corporate life is concerned, the sample you're drawing your inference from doesn't seem to me to be a very representative one. You're just comparing scientists to normal people. I'd like to see how a 20 year old white kid studying biology turns out on the Financial Street in Beijing where people party just as if they are actually athletes.
Again, reflections and discussions are always good but this still is a culture shock for me even though I've been living here for quite awhile.
The scary thing is that the alpha asians from asia also have ridiculously good grades while still having the social skills to back it up. Also on the small talk part, it's a bad generalization since many of the genuine alpha asians in asia do make small talk and enjoy shooting the shit and getting to know people. I personally hate small talk but that's cause I'm an arrogant misanthrope.
I also think a key difference is whether you are an asian brought up in asia, or an asian brought up in the US. If you grew up in the west you were probably conditioned to defer to white people, since it's a white person's world over here and they pretty much run the show. But the alpha asians brought up in asia are just as tough and hard-charging as their white alpha counterparts, and they have no trouble bossing white people around (i.e. "managing") or throwing out their opinions in a room full of white people. (Note that this does not include those phd types off the boat because they typically wouldn't have been alpha in asia anyway.) Ultimately it's what kind of mentality you were raised with and what role in society you have accepted for yourself. You can either sit your ass down and be content with your safe job and never rock the boat, or you can go out there and take what's yours. But it can be very hard to change that mentality if you grew up a certain way (i.e. in the US) like the kids in that article
I laughed out loud when I read bamboo ceiling. Does that mean I can bitch about the potato ceiling?
American's working in Asian manufactoring companies within the U.S. experience the same phenomenon... its a trust issue.
Do you people consider Indians to be Asians or not?
nope
Well, I think of myself as Asian. India is in Asia anyway. (Don't give me that stupid Russia is in Asia too analogy)
How about Russians?
A lot of this article talks about promotions and "moving up." But I think there are a lot of the same biases in exit opportunities as well. What do you guys think? For example, do you guys think that it's harder to move into a F500 job after MBB as an asian, etc?
that's funny, because there was a study that said asians on average make more money then whites in the US. (followed by the other two races)...
I think asians are more entrepreneurial and not as much corp ladder climbers (shiznet, I am tired of climbing this thing myself).......
That's more likely due to the fact that fewer asians are desperately poor than the fact that more asians make it to the top. The asian work ethic = not acceptable to be poor as fuck and accepting welfare.
Here's my cynical and slightly humorous anecdote:
The Chinese had a head start in one area of early chemistry...the invention of black powder. The Euros recognizing the potential took black powder...and turned it into gunpowder....developed cannons, guns, and bombs. Then they proceeded to imperialize the known world....and the first corporations were born. The end.
The main reason for this is simple, I have never seen an Asian kid stand up and yell out "I am a baller." Asians tend to be much more reserved in public spaces. Now this does not mean that they lack the knowledge to be a great manager, they just lack the skills to project their knowledge.
Just give it some time. Asians are assimilating into American culture at a rapid rate; I think Asians are much closer than everyone thinks to making a serious impact in the US corporate world. Once the current generation of young professionals age into their middle-years, I think we'll see many more of them in Exec positions.
the Chinese are notorious for copyright infringement because China has weak IP laws and poor enforcement. Think of China currently as the U.S. in the 1880's... rapid economic development with lagging infrastructure and regulation. Your second argument made me laugh out loud hahaha
What? China has weak IP laws but the west does not hence why they are always getting in trouble. I don't see your point?
THIS is why China does not worry me. Chinese will learn the leadership part and all, but again, it will be a perfected copy of whoever is teaching 'leadership' at that particular time. Ultimately, as times change, there will always be a cultural learning curve....China, and Chinese culture is firmly rooted in the past.
(I am an Asian myself so I acknowledge there may be bias)
Here's the thing... at this current point in time, the majority of asian americans growing up are first generation immigrants or have immigrant parents. Thus, the whole "reserved", "collectivist", or "uncreative" traits people in this thread are currently tagging current Asian-Americans with are somewhat expected. However, generation by generation, Asian-Americans will pick up on American culture (it's inevitable) and value the qualities/traits that the western world believes to be representative of a "leader". I can promise you that today's asian-american youth will not turn out to be another wave of strict Tiger-parents, and that their kids will be as innovative/confident/leader-like/etc as everyone else's.
You're being ignorant if you think Asians will always lag behind westerners in terms of leadership. We respect the past and where we came from; after all, our parents are the ones who busted their butts to give us the opportunities we have today. However, this doesn't mean we're incapable of pushing the limits in the future.
I am not ignorant when I say that the simple reality remains that the overwhelming majority of asians see academic achievement as their ticket to success to the neglect of other avenues: networking, entrepeneurship, military, etc... Speaking of military, I know many people afilliated with the military, and exactly one asian: and he did the reserves so they would pay for undergrad. Honorable, yes, but nothing creative. When asian culture opens up a bit, then they will really advance beyond merely refining western innovations, and that day is not in the forseeable future.
There are many upsides to asian culture as well, but my point is that China is not a threat to us, largely because of their own self imposed limits. When they do become more open, this will be a good thing and relations will improve even more. You can argue further if you like, but I'm in the camp that wants peaceful, productive relations.....and have a serious bone to pick with those who want another trade/cold war, this time with China.
I think it's because 1) the above-mentioned difference in culture, including collectivism, emphasis on hierarchy, and value placed on "modesty" and 2) the way that the educational system is structured across Asia - drilling, practicing and very test-oriented.
If anyone wants to argue that many Asians in the US are completely white-washed, all I can say is that there is no such thing. Most will not be more than the 3rd generation in the US, and things that are so deeply ingrained into a culture just does not wash out that easily.
Everyone knows how important "guanxi" or relationship / personal network is in Asia, not just for business but also for everyday life, yet somehow here in the US people think Asians can't social and don't know how to build networks?
Dude you heard of Silicon Valley? 1 in 4 tech/engineering startups is started by an immigrant founder and generally they are asian or indian. That makes the #3, #4, #5, and #7 points you make invalid. In addition, take a look at the graduating class of any of the big tech incubators (Ycombinator, techstars etc). Asians are a larger percentage of the graduates.
Military is a different story. It takes a few generations to discard the Chinese identity and replace it with a fully American identity. There will be more military involvement by Asians amongst this current generation's kids.
Here is an article on it: http://www.pratt.duke.edu/node/2277
Ratione similique iste commodi laudantium voluptatem officiis. Laboriosam nihil delectus facere aspernatur et eveniet quae. Eius quaerat dolores quibusdam perferendis et ea maxime praesentium.
Recusandae sed saepe architecto veritatis nostrum. Commodi qui ut qui. Minima dolor dolor et. Aut et neque magnam libero ut qui. Fugit perferendis quod reiciendis sit ipsa itaque debitis.
Eum ut fugiat quia facilis illum. Culpa libero aperiam magni tempore. Fugiat et consequatur consectetur commodi vel quod fuga. Accusantium amet culpa non quod corrupti voluptas.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Ab id dolores iure sed et. Quod magnam quo quo assumenda. Aut omnis quis neque suscipit.
Rerum dicta sint mollitia aut maiores iste adipisci qui. Distinctio repellendus ea animi ab.
Repudiandae laborum porro quo sequi. Ullam eaque quia ut. Numquam nostrum recusandae placeat et. Fugiat expedita officiis saepe doloremque laboriosam. Rerum accusantium numquam adipisci et quisquam adipisci.